The LeBron James Thread

[Xs and Os]

You've stated that Cleveland was trash multiple times. Don't try to squirm your way around it either.

The simple fact is that the Cavaliers fit LeBron like a glove. He would have had a better shot of winning a title in Cleveland than he would in Miami this year. The only question is if Miami can ever figure it out. Jury is still out.

People get into trouble when they look at things in black and white terms. "Was he clutch?" "could they win" "he good, you dumb, etc." that's not grown men who know the sport having a discussion. Whether a team can win is based on the matchups they'll face in the playoffs. Clutchness is about ability, decision making and for my definition, advancing in the playoffs and putting yourself in those situations to be clutch. It's not black and white. These simplified terms is why a discussion deteriorates into rhetoric. Wwharton put it well when he said to just back up your opinion with facts and make your point. If an opinion is moot, the facts/info will take care of it.

To that end, Cleveland was one piece away in a lot of situations, but the bottom line is Boston is good enough that no one should ever be favored over them. It's splitting hairs. Boston has the tools to beat any and everyone so the best you can do is match up and outplay them. Did the Cavs have the tools to do that? Probably not. Did Lebron do all he could in that series? Obviously not.

The Magic is a different story. No Jameer Nelson. A rookie SG logging big minutes. No "number 2" scorer for either team. Cleveland got out executed but they were not overmatched. Howard just obliterated his matchups more consistently and the inside out attack produced good looks all series.

[jeebs9]

Oh well no wonder you don't get the "dislike" for Miami.

Oh I totally get the reason why.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Man it's hard to figure out what exactly you said with as many times as you twist your words around. You say one thing and then spit something else.

[SidVish]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Oh I totally get the reason why.


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Yeah I get that since everyone probably knows why but that "celebration" just added more fuel to the fire.

[SidVish]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Man it's hard to figure out what exactly you said with as many times as you twist your words around. You say one thing and then spit something else.

I'm confused as well. I though ex-c has always said that Lebron has had no help in Cleveland.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It's been either "trash" or "decent help" or "adequate help" or "not well done help" or "well done" help or any word that basically means help but not enough help but who knows and who cares at this point LOL.

I stopped trying to figure it out a while ago because it wasn't worth it anymore

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I'm confused as well. I though ex-c has always said that Lebron has had no help in Cleveland.

It's been either "trash" or "decent help" or "adequate help" or "not well done help" or "well done" help or any word that basically means help but not enough help but who knows and who cares at this point LOL.

I stopped trying to figure it out a while ago because it wasn't worth it anymore

And you guys show me where I said trash or "no help". Please.

OSU still couldn't find any, and I don't expect you guys to find any either.

Instead of jumping to conclusions try actually responding to what I say. As I said, the past two years he's had decent help, not to par to the powers.

Before that, he's had absolute trash.

Simple enough?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

All I know is guys who actually make money off knowing NBA basketball and having an actual job or function in the NBA outside of arguing about it on internet message boards namely Hubie Brown has said if you win 60+ games in the NBA you are a legitimate threat to win a championship and all I hear around here in defense of that kind of talk is that the regular season means absolutely nothing. I've seen you say before ex that Cleveland had no chance of winning a championship. But eh, whatever.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Show me, lol. I try to always say "of course they had a shot, but the odds were stacked against them".

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Man I don't know ex. I think you're just splitting hairs with all this really cause you've always been so adament about his "help not stacking up" to Boston and all these other teams so really what else are you saying with that but they won't win? I think everyone can agree that when you look at the end results his help didn't come through as much as they could/should have at the end of the day. That said, the way you usually argue it, it's like 'you expect them to win with old *** Shaq' and stuff like that and the answer....YES they COULD have won but we didn't get the chance to see it. All this outmatched stuff is crazy, guys are outmatched all the time and find ways to win, it shouldn't ever be a contest against the Lakers cause they outmatch everyone in the league for the most part.

What we also forget is the very same Boston that LeBron apparently had no chance to beat or such a difficult, legit gripe at Cleveland reason to leave is the very same Boston that LeBron with the "trash" support took to a seventh game that they lost by five points where he matched Paul Pierce shot for shot and every one said he needed just one more shooter, one more person that could the ball in the basket to have won that series. Keep in mind that was the year the Celtics won the championship so it's not like he did that against the Celtics who didn't have KG in the playoffs. The Cavs went out and got him the shooters that he needed. They ran into a bad matchup against the Magic and got outcoached and outplayed. Mo Williams not showing up in that series didn't help anything sure. The following year they made moves to get someone to help against Dwight, they got defense on the perimeter on top of the shooters they got for the C's. They could have beaten the C's too, but LBJ's talents were already in South Beach and they failed. I just don't know how much longer we can keep sweeping what the Cavs did as a team under the rug to keep up the hype train of LBJ.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Man I don't know ex. I think you're just splitting hairs with all this really cause you've always been so adament about his "help not stacking up" to Boston and all these other teams so really what else are you saying with that but they won't win? I think everyone can agree that when you look at the end results his help didn't come through as much as they could/should have at the end of the day. That said, the way you usually argue it, it's like 'you expect them to win with old *** Shaq' and stuff like that and the answer....YES they COULD have won but we didn't get the chance to see it. All this outmatched stuff is crazy, guys are outmatched all the time and find ways to win, it shouldn't ever be a contest against the Lakers cause they outmatch everyone in the league for the most part.

What we also forget is the very same Boston that LeBron apparently had no chance to beat or such a difficult, legit gripe at Cleveland reason to leave is the very same Boston that LeBron with the "trash" support took to a seventh game that they lost by five points where he matched Paul Pierce shot for shot and every one said he needed just one more shooter, one more person that could the ball in the basket to have won that series. Keep in mind that was the year the Celtics won the championship so it's not like he did that against the Celtics who didn't have KG in the playoffs. The Cavs went out and got him the shooters that he needed. They ran into a bad matchup against the Magic and got outcoached and outplayed. Mo Williams not showing up in that series didn't help anything sure. The following year they made moves to get someone to help against Dwight, they got defense on the perimeter on top of the shooters they got for the C's. They could have beaten the C's too, but LBJ's talents were already in South Beach and they failed. I just don't know how much longer we can keep sweeping what the Cavs did as a team under the rug to keep up the hype train of LBJ.

Splitting hairs?

You guys crack me up.

All I've been saying is this:

It's very difficult to win a title when you don't have:

A. A Robin
B. A post presence

Honestly, what is so hard to grasp about this concept? Look throughout history and tell me a team that won a title without one out of two of those things. LeBron never had either of those in his 7 year stay in Cleveland. Who's fault that is, is another topic.

With that said, I wouldn't have "expected" Cleveland to get a title as much as I would have "expected" Boston or LA or even Orlando in 2008-2009. I mean Boston was stacked in 2007-2008 and 2009-2010, and Orlando had Shard/Turk/Jameer playing at All-Star caliber levels in 2008-2009... Am I saying that they would have never won or had no shot? No. Am I saying that Cleveland was at a disadvantage [compared to LA/Boston/Orlando] in terms of a winning roster built for the playoffs? Yes.

I don't know how many times I've said that, but hopefully that'll be the last time I have to write that.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

In all fairness, Ex has been saying this same exact thing for quite awhile...lol

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Since we're rehashing all of this (and I'm bored and it's Friday), I'd like to bring up something that may make a little more sense considering what we're seeing in Miami these days. Both Jamison and Mo Williams were considered "robin" types before getting to Cleveland. Both had much better stats and were considered significant additions. I'm pretty sure Jamison was averaging 20 and 10 before the trade.

Neither is a spot up jump shooter. Both can hit an open shot, but being a spot up jump shooter is not what made them who they were. They weren't used properly and part of that should fall on the coach but part of it should also fall on James and how much he needed to dominate the ball. I can't even say "needed to dominate the ball to be effective" bc I don't believe that's true, but maybe "to be comfortable" is more accurate. Either way, this idea of not having enough talent or not having a robin is a bit of revisionist history. We see Wade and Bosh now struggling to be who we expect them to be in a Lebron friendly offense too. Now we ask questions bc these two guys were among the best in the league before they all got together. Since Mo and Twan weren't THAT good, it seems we just write them off as "trash" (using that word to summarize all the words used for the CLE supporting cast).

Last night, Bosh got more looks around the basket and Wade seemed to be the focus late in the game, and the Heat looked much better. Mo and Twan didn't have the power to make that kind of change happen. Hell, even Jordan needed some serious arm twisting to let the others be more naturally involved in the offense before they won anything.

And as far as the CLE post presence last year, he was of course a shell of his former self but Shaq probably had the best post season of anyone on the Cavs last year. At least two of the games against Boston, he seemed like the only one that was trying. Last year's Cavs had as good of a shot as anyone at winning it all. And that doesn't mean they would've if the team didn't quit. Only one team wins, that means a lot of other teams lose. It doesn't mean all those teams couldn't win... real life just doesn't play out like that.

[Jasong7777]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Both Jamison and Mo Williams were considered "robin" types before getting to Cleveland. Both had much better stats and were considered significant additions. I'm pretty sure Jamison was averaging 20 and 10 before the trade.

Lebron doesn't make his teammates better. He never has. Matter of fact, it's quite the opposite. Wade and Lebron are useless off the ball. They both need the ball to be effective.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Since we're rehashing all of this (and I'm bored and it's Friday), I'd like to bring up something that may make a little more sense considering what we're seeing in Miami these days. Both Jamison and Mo Williams were considered "robin" types before getting to Cleveland. Both had much better stats and were considered significant additions. I'm pretty sure Jamison was averaging 20 and 10 before the trade.

Neither is a spot up jump shooter. Both can hit an open shot, but being a spot up jump shooter is not what made them who they were. They weren't used properly and part of that should fall on the coach but part of it should also fall on James and how much he needed to dominate the ball. I can't even say "needed to dominate the ball to be effective" bc I don't believe that's true, but maybe "to be comfortable" is more accurate. Either way, this idea of not having enough talent or not having a robin is a bit of revisionist history. We see Wade and Bosh now struggling to be who we expect them to be in a Lebron friendly offense too. Now we ask questions bc these two guys were among the best in the league before they all got together. Since Mo and Twan weren't THAT good, it seems we just write them off as "trash" (using that word to summarize all the words used for the CLE supporting cast).

Last night, Bosh got more looks around the basket and Wade seemed to be the focus late in the game, and the Heat looked much better. Mo and Twan didn't have the power to make that kind of change happen. Hell, even Jordan needed some serious arm twisting to let the others be more naturally involved in the offense before they won anything.

And as far as the CLE post presence last year, he was of course a shell of his former self but Shaq probably had the best post season of anyone on the Cavs last year. At least two of the games against Boston, he seemed like the only one that was trying. Last year's Cavs had as good of a shot as anyone at winning it all. And that doesn't mean they would've if the team didn't quit. Only one team wins, that means a lot of other teams lose. It doesn't mean all those teams couldn't win... real life just doesn't play out like that.

Very interesting point. I wondered why LBJ was deemed the King of the Heat, when DWade is the only one over there with a ring and has truly carried a team before. I saw him take over the 4th quarter last night with the ball in his hands. That's who should be the 1st option in crunch time IMO.

Also noticed something else, ever watch the Heat come down the court and LBJ doesn't get a shot in, in about 5 tries? I have, and when that happens, he's GOING to take the next 3-5 shots no matter what. Where Bosh and Wade seem willing to take the Robin role at times, LBJ doesn't seem at that willing to not be Batman all the time.