The LeBron James Thread

[ojandpizza]

I don't want to get in to the whole who's going to the Lakers and the Kobe discussion but want to chime in on the Bosh being exposed topic..

I think in a way he has been exposed and in a way he hasn't.. Yes he is absolutely perfect for their team, he does things that almost no other big in the league could. He accepts a 3rd person role, is great a spreading the court, is good in their defensive scheme, and has the quickness they need to fit their system.

But why would any other team want to offer huge money for Miami's perfect fit? He's had two straight seasons of sporadic effort, rebounding, and defense.. And he's basically done nothing but shoot jumpers offensively..

What really gets me is his lack of effort/hustle consistently during the regular season. If you're a big and you hustle you will do well playing against Bosh. Too many times you would see him get outplayed by "scrubs" for lack of a better word all season long. Did it matter? No because 9 times out of 10 Miami would beat that team anyways.. But habits are habits, and who wants to sign a player to max money when his habit at this point is to play as one of the laziest stars in the league for the majority of the season?

He does turn up his hustle or aggression level in the playoffs, and that's great. But why put stock in to giving him a huge deal when you know you will need that playoff effort all through the season just to make the playoffs to begin with. Sure if he was a first or second option he may or may not give more effort.. But at this point we don't know one way or another..

His rebounding is atrocious. It goes hand and hand with the hustle thing. He simply does not give effort on the glass. I know he is pulled away from the basket on offense, but that does not explain the lack of defensive boards.. And yes he fits great in Miami's defense, but his interior defense is mediocre.. Like I said earlier, he was letting scrub level players put in work on him all season long..

And the playoffs.. Roy Hibbert (not trying to discredit him). Went from a player who had struggled on the offensive end this season to a 30point per game threat on Bosh.. The same guy who during the regular season was getting dropped in my fantasy league because he didn't produce points, a good FG%, or rebound that well.. Just destroying Bosh. And of course Duncan abused him on both ends, despite being 50years old.. Not trying to discredit Duncan either.

Bosh does at times turn it up, I remember he had that big game against Indy. What was it 19 rebounds or something like that? You just sit back and wonder where has this been? Where had even half of that been? lol.. It's pure laziness, you can't expect a franchise player to show up only part of the time.. Obviously I don't expect him to be a 19 rebound per game threat. But what I'm saying is that for the money he makes, for a championship to be at stake, that effort should at least be there. You think Duncan, KG, Dirk, etc got to where they are today because they coasted for entire seasons and showed up for a handful of playoff games? No reason for Bosh to make that much money and at times be a liability on the court because he won't go get a rebound. When he wasnt hitting his shots a should be 12th man Birdman was more important than he. That's just not acceptable..

Again, I say he is perfect for Miami, he's excellent in their system.. But I do think he's been exposed, I think he takes the money. Because I do not see any other team in the league wanting to offer him what Miami can pay him. I don't see how any other team want a big man who doesn't hustle, doesn't rebound, and who can produce the big time points but will also let Vucevic, Sanders, Johnson, guys like them produce big time points as well.. Not to mention letting Hibbert look like Kareem lol..

With all that said I hope Miami keeps Bosh. I think he's best for their system, and don't see many other options for a better fit in the league.

Just to add: my biggest pet peeve about Bosh, he will not move on offense.. It's irritating to see guys like Haslem and Birdman get easy buckets because they will just move a little. LeBron makes it soooo easy for those guys.. Just imagine what Bosh could do.. Blows my mind.

[jeebs9]

Okay fellas. I take credit for my part in this, but we are in the LEBRON thread. Lets stop the Kobe talk. Thanks for having an interesting and civil discussion but of all the threads to derail this is probably the worse one, lol.

Sorry it was my fault. What we are talking about is in relations to LeBron James.

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[ojandpizza]

how can you make this statement when he won a championship with the right group around him after shaq.

since he's been the lead dog, you havent heard any player bitching about playing with him except the players trying to take the team from him. you never heard gasol say he couldnt play with kobe, you never heard metta saying that, nor lamar, or fisher. they may say little things like pass the ball alittle more but their teammates, they are allowed to say those things to him. but you never heard any of them say they didnt or couldnt play with kobe.

the bottomline is if your not denzel, then it aint your movie, fall in line, know your role in the film.

players who understand that have no problems playing with kobe. but if you wanna be denzel when denzel already exist, well of course thers going to be problems. and like it or not, kobe is denzel, until he's not denzel anymore or another player comes along who can play denzel better than him.

so how can man lead a team to 2 championships and 3 straight yrs to the finals and folks say nobody can play with kobe. those facts alone prove that its simply not a true statement.

i saw you said you were kidding but i wanna address it anyways cus, ppl really feel this way.

We feel this way because plenty of other teams have been fine with more than one "denzel".

[TajDeni]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Okay fellas. I take credit for my part in this, but we are in the LEBRON thread. Lets stop the Kobe talk. Thanks for having an interesting and civil discussion but of all the threads to derail this is probably the worse one, lol.

ok, i was just reading thru the thread and responding to post i read. moving along.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Long post... see the original for reference.

I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. I thought originally someone like birdman or Battier (and for LESS, which would've made it easier to find good players to put around James and Wade) made more sense than throwing a ton of money at Bosh bc I knew how the offense would work. Basically he makes the extra money buy having the ability to step up every now and then when needed for whatever reason... a normal "role player" can't turn it on like Bosh can when necessary. They just happen to have things go their way in certain games for the most part.

But (again agreeing with you for the most part) he averaged 7 rebounds a game playing next to a wing who sucks up boards. I don't think it's fair to criticize his effort there too much. He's also a PF forced to play center so I can't criticize the negative results of those match ups too much either. Now Duncan is a PF/C so you may say he should be able to man him up better, but that's Duncan we're talking about so I again give him a bit of a pass.

I admit I'm making excuses. But my argument is specifically against him being "exposed". I think if he were asked to consistently carry a larger role he could, so I don't think he's been exposed at all. I think he's proven he's not a center but we already knew that. We also knew he wasn't a hustle player, he's a big who was used to having an offense run through him. The guys you're comparing him to got in the league bc of their ability to contribute despite being the 4th, 5th, 6th option.

Sorry it was my fault. What we are talking about is in relations to LeBron James.

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No worries. It started off related and then we (me included) took it far off topic.

Taj, no worries. You were asked before I posted so no problem with you answering.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Experience. MIA had seasoned guys who played on the biggest stages. CHI wasn't ready in 2010, OKC wasn't ready in 2011, The Pacers weren't ready in 2012. All three folded on the big stage, much like Bron folded in 2007 vs the Spurs, and 2008 vs the C's. The intimidation factor certainly wouldn't have been a factor for CHI or OKC this year, and Im pretty sure Granger would have made a difference had he played.

Don't matter though, the victor always writes the history. Everything else is sour grapes.The Heat won, so they are the unstoppable monster, even though those dudes had a ton of things break right this year. One made Kahwi FT, and this summer is all about the 2 TO's and 2 airballs Bronny jacked up with the season on the line in the last minute or so of game 6.

Also, can't really compare Wades sore knees to Rose, DG and Westbrook being out completely, IMO.

Experience is abstract and I don't really think it makes a difference. Mike didn't need "big stage" experience to rattle off essentially 6 straight titles. Paul Pierce didn't need it, plenty of other guys who won their first time on the big stage.

As for LeBron "folding" in 2007, the Spurs just played great defense on him, just like Dallas in 2011. They actually did it again this year, only LeBron is a much better shooter than he was then.

"Weren't ready" is just bull man, imagine the crap I'd get if I said oh well we just weren't ready for Dallas in 2011. Dallas was the better team, and beat us.

And also, last year against Indiana, we didn't have Bosh after Game 1.

[jeebs9]

I don't know why but I always felt the experience thing had to with if you went to college or not.

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[ojandpizza]

Experience is abstract and I don't really think it makes a difference. Mike didn't need "big stage" experience to rattle off essentially 6 straight titles. Paul Pierce didn't need it, plenty of other guys who won their first time on the big stage.

I usually agree with a lot of your posts.

But I absolutely hate when people say this. So what if Jordan won his first trip to the finals, or so what if he's 6/6 in the finals.. He still didn't even make the finals his first 6 years in the league, a loss in the first round is just as bad as a loss in the finals IMO.

It's like when Stephen A was talking on ESPN on the will LeBron ever be Jordan subject.. He kept saying Jordan was 6 for 6! He never lost in the finals.. I'm thinkin why does that even matter, for three straight season before that he couldn't beat the Pistons to even make it to the finals lol.. There are plenty of reasons LeBron won't be Jordan, just like there are plenty of reasons Jordan is the greatest of all time.. Being 6/6 in the finals, or winning his first trip there isn't really one of them in my opinion..

To add: before everyone here jumps on me I'm not saying that having 6 rings isn't important, I'm saying having the perfect finals record isn't.. I'm not going to say Jordan winning 6 rings is more impressive than Russell winning 11 just because Jordan is 6/6.

But back on topic, I do agree with your post. I don't think "finals" experience was the reason the Heat beat those teams. What does finals experience have to do with beating a team in the first or second round? lol.. Claiming those teams all folded instead of the Heat winning.. The crap we get if we say Miami even folded in one game or one quarter, it becomes an uproar in here about us not giving other teams credit.

[ojandpizza]

I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. I thought originally someone like birdman or Battier (and for LESS, which would've made it easier to find good players to put around James and Wade) made more sense than throwing a ton of money at Bosh bc I knew how the offense would work. Basically he makes the extra money buy having the ability to step up every now and then when needed for whatever reason... a normal "role player" can't turn it on like Bosh can when necessary. They just happen to have things go their way in certain games for the most part.

But (again agreeing with you for the most part) he averaged 7 rebounds a game playing next to a wing who sucks up boards. I don't think it's fair to criticize his effort there too much. He's also a PF forced to play center so I can't criticize the negative results of those match ups too much either. Now Duncan is a PF/C so you may say he should be able to man him up better, but that's Duncan we're talking about so I again give him a bit of a pass.

I admit I'm making excuses. But my argument is specifically against him being "exposed". I think if he were asked to consistently carry a larger role he could, so I don't think he's been exposed at all. I think he's proven he's not a center but we already knew that. We also knew he wasn't a hustle player, he's a big who was used to having an offense run through him. The guys you're comparing him to got in the league bc of their ability to contribute despite being the 4th, 5th, 6th option.

Yeah I agree with what you're saying, and obviously in my post I was just pointing out the "bad" in Bosh rather than both the good and bad. There are plenty of areas he does great in. I just don't see another team paying him what the Heat can pay him. No other team really needs his strengths while being able to carry his weaknesses like Miami can.. Not for that price anyways.

Also, I wasn't comparing him to anybody? I don't know what the last sentence of your post is referring too.. Maybe it was the part mentioning Vucevic, Sanders, etc, etc. from my post? But I wasn't comparing them to Bosh, I was saying those guys put in work against Bosh this season. Which should not happen, he shouldn't make this much money to slack around and let those guys outplay him.. Even if it is the regular season.

[J_Posse]

Yeah I agree with what you're saying, and obviously in my post I was just pointing out the "bad" in Bosh rather than both the good and bad. There are plenty of areas he does great in. I just don't see another team paying him what the Heat can pay him. No other team really needs his strengths while being able to carry his weaknesses like Miami can.. Not for that price anyways.

Also, I wasn't comparing him to anybody? I don't know what the last sentence of your post is referring too.. Maybe it was the part mentioning Vucevic, Sanders, etc, etc. from my post? But I wasn't comparing them to Bosh, I was saying those guys put in work against Bosh this season. Which should not happen, he shouldn't make this much money to slack around and let those guys outplay him.. Even if it is the regular season.

I believe some of Bosh's weaknesses are magnified do to the team he's on and who he plays with. He was a consistent 20-10 for two or three years in the T-Dot. He can't sniff those numbers being the third banana behind LeBron and Wade. The Heat also had him playing out of position for all of last season and much of the postseason two seasons ago. He's been a great compliment to LeBron and could be an asset on any team. His "developing" 3-point game and lack of strength inside are my biggest issue with him.

I was wondering something about LeBron. How long do y'all think his prime will last and can he extend into his mid/late-30's? When will we begin to see a deterioration of his physical skills?

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[jeebs9]

^^ That's a great question. I think it will happen once he gets a major injury ^^

Also, I wasn't comparing him to anybody? I don't know what the last sentence of your post is referring too.. Maybe it was the part mentioning Vucevic, Sanders, etc, etc. from my post? But I wasn't comparing them to Bosh, I was saying those guys put in work against Bosh this season. Which should not happen, he shouldn't make this much money to slack around and let those guys outplay him.. Even if it is the regular season.

I'm going to tell you a huge secret about the Heat defense. If you haven't notice in the last 2 years. The Heat defense let big men on the other team get plenty of chances to score. Yes they are playing small because they want your big men get plenty of chances vs their small bigs (Shane, Bosh, LeBron, Haslem and you could throw in Wade if you want).

Hasn't anyone notice big men always have nice stats vs the Heat. It's because they limit your guards opportunities. They put your bigs in guard like situations. Not many bigs can handle the ball and make quick choices on the move. Just watch any game from this season. The Heat must lead the league in "hands" plays. Plays where players get stripped down low, throw terrible passes, or (my favorite) get blocked by little guys.

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[ojandpizza]

@Jeebs

I agree with all that. But even then, even if Miami does want to give the bigs opportunities, it's still one-on-one with them and Bosh.. The majority of the time they out-rebound him, get all the loose balls, and often times score on him.. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing because that plays right to what the Heat want.. And I know he isn't playing his natural position so it's obviously going to be really tough for him regardless..

But my thing is I'm not sure another team besides Miami would want to pay him for what he does.. He probably could take a lead role and get back to that guys who's producing around 20&10.. But with Bosh it's more than just the numbers, plenty of players get nice numbers when they are given all the opportunities.. I just don't see another team wanting to give him that much, I mean he's already making more than Bron and D-Wade.. He's just not worth that to any other team in the league IMO.

[ojandpizza]

I was wondering something about LeBron. How long do y'all think his prime will last and can he extend into his mid/late-30's? When will we begin to see a deterioration of his physical skills?

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Idk hopefully he can last to his mid 30's.. The good thing is that he continues to add to his game, he's gets better in other areas.. So when he does start to decline physically he game will be sharp enough in other areas to make up for it..

LeBron works a lot in the offseason. He always come in to start the season in great shape, with great conditioning, and he stays protecting his body with weight training and other areas.. Much like Kobe, just a guy who has always kept working to stay ahead.. We've saw how long Kobe can last, up until this injury that is.. I think with that same type or work ethic LeBron could do the same..

You look at other guys and they usually have reasons why they haven't aged as well. T-Mac admittedly said he didn't take care of his body and he didn't work out much.. Vince didn't add to his game well enough in other areas, same is starting to show with Wade..

I think with the way he prepares for each season he will last for a good long while.. I don't think we see an early 30's deterioration in his game.

[Vni]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

As he ages he will have to develop a strong post game, wich I am sure he will and play closer to the rim. At 35 he will probably play like a more traditionnal power forward.

[jeebs9]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

@Jeebs

I agree with all that. But even then, even if Miami does want to give the bigs opportunities, it's still one-on-one with them and Bosh.. The majority of the time they out-rebound him, get all the loose balls, and often times score on him.. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing because that plays right to what the Heat want.. And I know he isn't playing his natural position so it's obviously going to be really tough for him regardless..

But my thing is I'm not sure another team besides Miami would want to pay him for what he does.. He probably could take a lead role and get back to that guys who's producing around 20&10.. But with Bosh it's more than just the numbers, plenty of players get nice numbers when they are given all the opportunities.. I just don't see another team wanting to give him that much, I mean he's already making more than Bron and D-Wade.. He's just not worth that to any other team in the league IMO.

Most of the Heats rebounding troubles are basically effort plays. It's sad... But the Heat go into cruise control sometime. We all know that.

But Bosh would get the same money from any team in the league. And he is worth it. He has tools most PF dream of having. Someone mentioned why Bosh pops instead of driving on pick and rolls. It's because the Heat's system. They can adjust any part of their offensive and defensive game. Game 4 of the finals is a great example of that. Instead of popping. He started driving much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0lXSbf1BR0

The Heat do this. They just don't want to give the same looks over and over again. And like I said the effort. Bosh can cruise on this team. And it's ok lol.

I agree with Vni. LeBron will start playing much more closer to the basket. But I still think he'll be dishing/handling more. Almost like Magic Johnson. It's either that or he will fall in love with his jumper.