The LeBron James Thread

[Taur3asi3]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Magic: drafted into a somewhat favorable situation with Kareem there; evolved into "the man" on his team, won rings.

Somewhat favorable? He went to a team with a top 5 all time player (who I have at 1a/1b), and 2 guys who should be in the hall of fame. Kareem was in his prime, Jamaal Wilkes was coming into his, and Spencer Haywood was exiting his but coming off a year when he played 34 games in New Orleans and put up 24 and 10, although he was having drug issues. Magic also had really good players in Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper, and Jim Chones. Thats better than "somewhat favorable".

[Murkurial]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

No because two "alpha males" do not build a team from scratch together every offseason...Pretty much every year we know who the guy is...

BTW The Celtics were not the same team without KG...

They're bringing back a lot of the same guys who've played with Wade for a few years now in Miami. Not big name guys, but Haslem, Anthony, maybe Arroyo or White Chocolate if they come back, Magloire, Chalmers, and James Jones all played with Wade at one point or another on the Heat (all except J-Will played with him last year I think) and know who the man was in Miami and that stuff doesn't just change because at one point they didn't have anyone signed to the team.

It's not like their memories have been erased because they were no longer under contract with the team that they've all come back to. Gutting your roster and then signing all of those guys back to "you're playing for your dinner and bus ride home" contracts does not equal building from scratch.

The Celtics also aren't the same without Pierce. And they definitely wouldnt've won a title with ONLY KG. And to a lesser extent, the team isn't the same w/o Allen. They ALL matter when it comes to the team's success. But they all realize who the **** was there when they arrived. Pierce. And they still call him the captain. They are all needed and they're all just as important to the team but Ray Ray and KG knew who's team they were coming to and they acknowledged that.

[nuckles2k2]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Somewhat favorable? He went to a team with a top 5 all time player (who I have at 1a/1b), and 2 guys who should be in the hall of fame. Kareem was in his prime, Jamaal Wilkes was coming into his, and Spencer Haywood was exiting his but coming off a year when he played 34 games in New Orleans and put up 24 and 10, although he was having drug issues. Magic also had really good players in Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper, and Jim Chones. Thats better than "somewhat favorable".

Ok, his situation was a little more favorable than "somewhat" favorable, but the dude was drafted 9 years before I was born. That still doesn't change the jist of the entire post tho. Thanks for the heads up?

[goldteethbandit]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

That list of what players have done in the past is not opinion, it's fact. It's also a fact that LBJ is veering off the course that those players traveled, once again, not an opinion, fact. So therefore you can not realistically compare LBJ to those guys anymore because he is no longer following or improving upon their model.

None of that is opinion. I don't know how you can have an opinion on "Jordan, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, etc. were the centerpiece for their team and now LBJ is on someone else's team, it's not the same." It's not my opinion that Wade led the Heat past the Mavs and won a ring while LBJ's team was sitting at home watching. That happened. Now LBJ is on that team, once again, not an opinion...he's there; fact.

Where's the opinion in any of this? Like I said, whether you agree or disagree with the decision, like the guy or not, some objective part of you has to at least understand that LBJ willingly left one team to join up with another bonafide superstar. He didn't go to a team with talent and cap space to build around him, he went to D-Wade, a guy who usually finishes the season in the hunt for the MVP right along with James, and a guy who's already lead a team to a championship without James.

Bottom line, you can't compare LBJ with any of the all time greats anymore or expect his name to be up there when it's all said and done. However you translate that and process that is up to you, but numbers alone won't get him there, and the one factor that could...he gave away for the next 6 years (barring a trade to a barren team.)

sigh I don't know how or why people keep trying to predict this guys legacy based on him going to play with another allstar. I'm a heat fan have been since the franchise started and Wade is by faaaaaaaarrrr my favorite player in the league and has been since his rookie year, but to say regardless of what LBJ does from this point forward he'll be Wade sidekick and everything he accomplishes will be tarnished and looked upon that way.

I asked the question before and still haven't recieved an answer, if Lebron wins 3+ titles in Miami with Wade (remember he's only 25 and will be 31 if he plays out his entire contract) and proceeds to win 2 or more titles without an All NBA caliber player in Wade, you think NBA people will say he can't be mentioned in top players of all time discussions?

[goldteethbandit]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

[QUOTE=Murkurial;2041362782]They're bringing back a lot of the same guys who've played with Wade for a few years now in Miami. Not big name guys, but Haslem, Anthony, maybe Arroyo or White Chocolate if they come back, Magloire, Chalmers, and James Jones all played with Wade at one point or another on the Heat (all except J-Will played with him last year I think) and know who the man was in Miami and that stuff doesn't just change because at one point they didn't have anyone signed to the team.

QUOTE]

Alot of those guys are coming back because they are from Miami or had some affiliation with the organization, not because of Wade. Also Big Z and Mike Miller came because of Lebron so does he get credit for bringing in some of his own guys who have no affiliation with Miami at all.

[Murkurial]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I asked the question before and still haven't recieved an answer, if Lebron wins 3+ titles in Miami with Wade (remember he's only 25 and will be 31 if he plays out his entire contract) and proceeds to win 2 or more titles without an All NBA caliber player in Wade, you think NBA people will say he can't be mentioned in top players of all time discussions?

He'll definitely be in the Hall when all is said and done.

I'll ask you a couple questions:

Do you think that coming into the league and in his first seven years, that Lebron was touted as the successor to MJ? That people kept saying that he had the potential to be the greatest player ever?

Do you think that his "Chosen One" tat, and accepting the "King" moniker, and taking the number "23," and using Jordan's powder routine, said anything about the sort of player that he might want to become? Did it say anything about how he saw himself as a player?

If the majority of those considered to be among the all-time greats did so on teams where they could be 100% considered THE MAN and wouldnt've left their teams to go play with other superstars (if I'm going by the words that came out of Jordan, Bird, and Magic's mouths), does Lebron choosing to go to the team of another superstar when he had a number of choices make it seem a little bit more difficult for him to be lumped in the same category as those guys since he had the choice and he chose NOT to go to a team where he could be the guy?

I don't care about any "they don't know what they would've done cuz they didn't have the chance BS." I know what they said and that's what I'll go by, and in Jordan's case he easily could've decided to go to someone's team were he so inclined.

Alot of those guys are coming back because they are from Miami or had some affiliation with the organization, not because of Wade. Also Big Z and Mike Miller came because of Lebron so does he get credit for bringing in some of his own guys who have no affiliation with Miami at all.

Yeah, they have no recollection of who the guy was back when they played for the team a year ago. Nothing to do with Wade. They're definitely coming back because they have a chance to win some rings as they could probably make a bit more dough playing elsewhere (some of them could) but the notion that they are going to look at this situation like the team has just been formed and Wade is a newcomer who's never played with them before is absurd. I think you're being dense on purpose. Or at least I hope you are...

And sure, if yo wanna give LBJ credit for bring Z and Miller go ahead. He gets the credit for bringing them, along with himself, to Wade's team.

[Jukeman]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

He'll definitely be in the Hall when all is said and done.

I'll ask you a couple questions:

Do you think that coming into the league and in his first seven years, that Lebron was touted as the successor to MJ? That people kept saying that he had the potential to be the greatest player ever?

Do you think that his "Chosen One" tat, and accepting the "King" moniker, and taking the number "23," and using Jordan's powder routine, said anything about the sort of player that he might want to become? Did it say anything about how he saw himself as a player?

If the majority of those considered to be among the all-time greats did so on teams where they could be 100% considered THE MAN and wouldnt've left their teams to go play with other superstars (if I'm going by the words that came out of Jordan, Bird, and Magic's mouths), does Lebron choosing to go to the team of another superstar when he had a number of choices make it seem a little bit more difficult for him to be lumped in the same category as those guys since he had the choice and he chose NOT to go to a team where he could be the guy?

I don't care about any "they don't know what they would've done cuz they didn't have the chance BS." I know what they said and that's what I'll go by, and in Jordan's case he easily could've decided to go to someone's team were he so inclined.



Yeah, they have no recollection of who the guy was back when they played for the team a year ago. Nothing to do with Wade. They're definitely coming back because they have a chance to win some rings as they could probably make a bit more dough playing elsewhere (some of them could) but the notion that they are going to look at this situation like the team has just been formed and Wade is a newcomer who's never played with them before is absurd. I think you're being dense on purpose. Or at least I hope you are...

And sure, if yo wanna give LBJ credit for bring Z and Miller go ahead. He gets the credit for bringing them, along with himself, to Wade's team.

2 Simple quick answers...

Its a new era.

LBJ compares himself to magic not Jordan.

[Murkurial]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Its a new era.

Unfortunately, this new era that you speak of might make it harder for current players to stack up to the all-timers.

And it seems like he shoulda taken that Magic mantle earlier on in his career, no? Or at the very least, told everyone else "hey, hey, hey...all this Jordan talk, we gotta chill out with it."

I'll let the other guy chime in though, I didn't expect to hear anything of substance from you if I'm being honest.

[nuckles2k2]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

2 Simple quick answers...

Its a new era.

LBJ compares himself to magic not Jordan.

Seems like you keep mixing opinion with fact. You say things that if true would make you right in the situation, but you're willing to throw out facts and statements that can be backed up with any sort of substance to make a quick remark than keep moving. It's easy to to that.

Anyone can look at all of the signs that LBJ tries to align himself with Jordan...but then say "no, he compares himself to [enter any other name on the planet]" and that's it.

Doesn't work that way.

[goldteethbandit]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

He'll definitely be in the Hall when all is said and done.

I'll ask you a couple questions:

Do you think that coming into the league and in his first seven years, that Lebron was touted as the successor to MJ? That people kept saying that he had the potential to be the greatest player ever?

Do you think that his "Chosen One" tat, and accepting the "King" moniker, and taking the number "23," and using Jordan's powder routine, said anything about the sort of player that he might want to become? Did it say anything about how he saw himself as a player?

If the majority of those considered to be among the all-time greats did so on teams where they could be 100% considered THE MAN and wouldnt've left their teams to go play with other superstars (if I'm going by the words that came out of Jordan, Bird, and Magic's mouths), does Lebron choosing to go to the team of another superstar when he had a number of choices make it seem a little bit more difficult for him to be lumped in the same category as those guys since he had the choice and he chose NOT to go to a team where he could be the guy?

I don't care about any "they don't know what they would've done cuz they didn't have the chance BS." I know what they said and that's what I'll go by, and in Jordan's case he easily could've decided to go to someone's team were he so inclined.



Yeah, they have no recollection of who the guy was back when they played for the team a year ago. Nothing to do with Wade. They're definitely coming back because they have a chance to win some rings as they could probably make a bit more dough playing elsewhere (some of them could) but the notion that they are going to look at this situation like the team has just been formed and Wade is a newcomer who's never played with them before is absurd. I think you're being dense on purpose. Or at least I hope you are...

And sure, if yo wanna give LBJ credit for bring Z and Miller go ahead. He gets the credit for bringing them, along with himself, to Wade's team.

I'm not really sure what media and personal hype have to do with his legacy but YES he was hyped up to possibly be one of the GOAT (and he could still end up that way eventhough very few want to acknowledge that), but without rings all the self proclamations and media hype wouldn't have meant a thing. He still needed rings to be in the discussion, once he gets the rings then it can be determined and debated about how he got the rings (how important was he to getting him, was he more of a sidekick or the man in actuality and not in theory based on performance, how dominate will he be over the next decade).

Remember Kobe wasn't 100% the man originally and after becoming the man moaned, complained about wanting out of LA (obviously attempting to force managements hand to get him help imo, but still on the outside he took a perception hit from the masses because of it didn't the LA fans originally boo him in the first home game IIRC). However two NBA titles later as the said man on his team (eventhough he's on arguably the most talented team in the league and that was proven in game 7 of the finals, but whatever he's still the man on that team) he's is now in discussion with MJ as GOAT. Seriously GOAT for a guy who was the sidekick for more than half his career and arguably may not even be the greatest player of his generation, but he's being discussed as GOAT, because he has five rings even though he wasn't the man on more than half of them. You need the rings to be in any discussion then everything else is left to debate.

[goldteethbandit]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Seems like you keep mixing opinion with fact. You say things that if true would make you right in the situation, but you're willing to throw out facts and statements that can be backed up with any sort of substance to make a quick remark than keep moving. It's easy to to that.

Anyone can look at all of the signs that LBJ tries to align himself with Jordan...but then say "no, he compares himself to [enter any other name on the planet]" and that's it.

Doesn't work that way.

well I remember when he was coming out of highschool people were comparing him more to magic then MJ because of how much and how good of a passer he was (Riley even told him that who he envisions him being). I believe he was forced to be more of a scorer in Cleveland when he doesn't really care that much about being a dominate scorer ala MJ or Kobe. He clearly admires Jordan most kids from his generation do, but he actually perfers to play more like Magic imo.

[nuckles2k2]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I mean...there's a difference between making a statement that you can back up with facts, and arguing like a little kid saying "nah uhhhh."

My position is this: Those considered all time greats, had something in common...they were the cornerstone of their organization and the centerpiece that the team built around. That's evidenced by Jordan, Magic, and Russell doing their thing for their teams over the long haul as "the man." There's no arguing that. LBJ just removed himself from that model by going to the team of someone who's been there for 7 years and has a ring. Want to argue against that? Between Jordan, Russell, and Magic (the three names I see associated the most with being G.O.A.T) who's model is LBJ following the closest? Which one of those guys willingly left a team, gave up the opportunity to go to a team to have them build a contender around you, and went to join up with another future HOFer, and former NBA Finals MVP, to chase a ring in his prime?

It's as simple as that. To say it's a new era is bogus, because with Kobe doing it with the Lakers, Wade with the Heat (understand, he's the one being built around, he's been there for 7 years), if Rose stays with the Bulls, Roy with the Blazers, Durant with the Thunder, then it's not a new era. We just have a handful of guys who are currently going after rings at any cost. Which I am in no way saying is a bad thing, it just doesn't sync up with what the perceived Greatest of All Timers did. And if we have a handful of guys in the league try to follow them, there isn't really a new era at all. That's what really remains to be seen, not what LBJ does in Miami, for the reasons already stated.

[Murkurial]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I'm not really sure what media and personal hype have to do with his legacy but YES he was hyped up to possibly be one of the GOAT (and he could still end up that way eventhough very few want to acknowledge that), but without rings all the self proclamations and media hype wouldn't have meant a thing. He still needed rings to be in the discussion, once he gets the rings then it can be determined and debated about how he got the rings (how important was he to getting him, was he more of a sidekick or the man in actuality and not in theory based on performance, how dominate will he be over the next decade).

Determined and debated upon by who exactly?

And he was hyped up to possibly be THE GOAT, not one of. If you don't believe that then any more discussion on this is moot I guess since you won't see the Heat decision as one that could really affect his legacy, since he apparently wasn't looked at the having the potential to be better than MJ in the first place.

And so I'm guessing that you really do think that he'll step into Wade's house and push him aside to become the man. Even though he's apparently more Magic than Jordan (who would probably be Wade in the case of the Heat). Cuz, when that discussion begins on how he got his rings, people will look at him voluntarily choosing to go to a spot where he isn't the man. But again, I asked you a previous post I think, if you honestly believe that Lebron is coming into this team to take over Wade's title as THE GUY. If you think that can happen then I guess there's nothing left to say. Especially when there was a team waiting for him in Chicago where he could've won rings and been the undisputed man (disclaimer: didn't want him here).

However two NBA titles later as the said man on his team (eventhough he's on arguably the most talented team in the league and that was proven in game 7 of the finals, but whatever he's still the man on that team) he's is now in discussion with MJ as GOAT. Seriously GOAT for a guy who was the sidekick for more than half his career and arguably may not even be the greatest player of his generation, but he's being discussed as GOAT, because he has five rings even though he wasn't the man on more than half of them.You need the rings to be in any discussion then everything else is left to debate.

And leaving a team to join up with another guy who's just about as good as you are, will be a big part of that debate. And I don't think people will look too favorably upon that. Again, that's where I and a few others (read: Lebron fans) seem to differ.

And Kobe's not really in the discussion for GOAT in my opinion. Well, in the discussion yes, but ever taking that title, no. Even a lot of old-timers can't really figure out where to put him. Maybe greatest Laker, but for one reason or another a lot of people don't want to put him as high on the all-time list as he might deserve. One of, and for me he's the closest that I've seen to Jordan (and probably will see) but like you said, he wasn't really the man on all of his titles, and even with 6 there's the small matter of MVPs, Finals MVPs, RotY (which he obviously can't get). I would put him up there as one of the greatest as he couldn't really control who was either on the squad when he was drafted nor who was signed to his team early in his career when he didn't have the pull to make those personnel decisions so I don't know how much you can hold it against him. He obviously pulled rank in recent years to get good pieces around him but he's been the cornerstone for some time now in L.A.

[Jukeman]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I mean...there's a difference between making a statement that you can back up with facts, and arguing like a little kid saying "nah uhhhh."

My position is this: Those considered all time greats, had something in common...they were the cornerstone of their organization and the centerpiece that the team built around. That's evidenced by Jordan, Magic, and Russell doing their thing for their teams over the long haul as "the man." There's no arguing that. LBJ just removed himself from that model by going to the team of someone who's been there for 7 years and has a ring. Want to argue against that? Between Jordan, Russell, and Magic (the three names I see associated the most with being G.O.A.T) who's model is LBJ following the closest? Which one of those guys willingly left a team, gave up the opportunity to go to a team to have them build a contender around you, and went to join up with another future HOFer, and former NBA Finals MVP, to chase a ring in his prime?

It's as simple as that. To say it's a new era is bogus, because with Kobe doing it with the Lakers, Wade with the Heat (understand, he's the one being built around, he's been there for 7 years), if Rose stays with the Bulls, Roy with the Blazers, Durant with the Thunder, then it's not a new era. We just have a handful of guys who are currently going after rings at any cost. Which I am in no way saying is a bad thing, it just doesn't sync up with what the perceived Greatest of All Timers did. And if we have a handful of guys in the league try to follow them, there isn't really a new era at all. That's what really remains to be seen, not what LBJ does in Miami, for the reasons already stated.

Google it...your on the internet arent you?

That statement is far from opinion

whats the point of going into detail when someone else is going to come up with an excuse anyways?

Its a pretty know fact that people seem to ignore (LBJ models game after Magic)

kobe had help(Shot 6-24 in game 7 of the finals...) and Wade had Shaq(before he declined) get out of here with that...

[goldteethbandit]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I mean...there's a difference between making a statement that you can back up with facts, and arguing like a little kid saying "nah uhhhh."

My position is this: Those considered all time greats, had something in common...they were the cornerstone of their organization and the centerpiece that the team built around. That's evidenced by Jordan, Magic, and Russell doing their thing for their teams over the long haul as "the man." There's no arguing that. LBJ just removed himself from that model by going to the team of someone who's been there for 7 years and has a ring. Want to argue against that? Between Jordan, Russell, and Magic (the three names I see associated the most with being G.O.A.T) who's model is LBJ following the closest? Which one of those guys willingly left a team, gave up the opportunity to go to a team to have them build a contender around you, and went to join up with another future HOFer, and former NBA Finals MVP, to chase a ring in his prime?

It's as simple as that. To say it's a new era is bogus, because with Kobe doing it with the Lakers, Wade with the Heat (understand, he's the one being built around, he's been there for 7 years), if Rose stays with the Bulls, Roy with the Blazers, Durant with the Thunder, then it's not a new era. We just have a handful of guys who are currently going after rings at any cost. Which I am in no way saying is a bad thing, it just doesn't sync up with what the perceived Greatest of All Timers did. And if we have a handful of guys in the league try to follow them, there isn't really a new era at all. That's what really remains to be seen, not what LBJ does in Miami, for the reasons already stated.

didn't know there was an unwritten rule to being in discussion as one of the GOAT players, always thought you needed to win and be dominate during your career isn't that why Kobe is mention in GOAT discussion (that and the fact that he's been in LA his entire career obviously). There are poeple who put Wilt in the GOAT player discussion and he moved around a bit as a player (regardless of what people think he actually had a say in his trade to the Lakers IIRC). At this point I don't even care anymore it's all opinion so I'll agree with the mass opinion like I did with the opinion on Kobe three years ago. LBJ has tarnished his career forever, his legacy will never be the same, he didn't follow the path that was written in the basketball bible that you must obey to be one of the GOAT players, so he should just enjoy playing with a real champion and making millions of dollars to play a kids game.