The LeBron James Thread

[Brankles]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Lebron quits in the Celtics series. The Cavs lose. Blame it on the rest of the team? Cool

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2009/conf_semi_stats.html

If LeBron quit, what do you call what the rest of the Cavs did? Shaq played 23 mpg. Mo Williams shot 40% from the field. Z played 3 games. Jamison averaged 12 and 7.

LeBron led the team in total points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks that series.

I guess it's his fault that he didn't have Pau Gasol and Ron Artest to tip in his missed buzzer-beaters

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

So now that Lebrons gone Cleveland should be signing a couple of marquee free agents in the coming years since he was the reason holding them back.

That's some solid logic there. Good luck with that.

Of course it's easy to do that. Hindsight is 20/20, right? I'm not claiming to be a prophet or anything.

And I never said LeBron was partly at fault for losing in the playoffs. But help from teammates like Pau Gasol/Ron Artest/Andrew Bynum/Lamar Odom or Rajon Rondo/Ray Allen/Kevin Garnett/Kendrick Perkins or even Jameer/Vince/Rashard/Pietrus would have been nice

Kobe had plenty of games where he could hide his flaws behind his teammates. Same with Pierce and same with Dwight. LeBron had to win the game by himself or the Cavs weren't winning. I can't think of a championship team that had a superstar LeBron's position.

After looking at the rosters of those championship-caliber teams, it amazes me how good LeBron is to take that team to that record and put them in that position every year. Clearly that title would have been his and his alone had he won it. But, as I keep repeating like a broken record, no star has ever won a title on their own.

I KNOW you were around 100 pages ago so I'm definitely not getting too deep in this with you. Dominant (or superstar, alpha dogs, whatever you want to call them) players get tons of attention and have defenses designed to stop them. In those situations you need A)the player to still produce, B)the player to recognize and get his teammates involved in position where they can succeed based on each of their talents, C)the other teammates to succeed when put in the position to do so, and D)a coach to put together a gameplan to help achieve A, B, and C.

As outsiders there were many times where we can say that:

- A didn't happen (James clearly dialed it back during crucial times of at least 2 playoff games)
- B didn't happen (James clearly had times where he pounded the rock while everyone else stood around)
- C didn't happen (you and others have mentioned this plenty)
- D didn't happen (the 1-4 set didn't put anyone in good position, including James and there was horrible use of the bench throughout).

So these things can be compared to the regular season if you want, but the TEAM won 60+ games and focusing specifically on the playoff failure, there were obvious reasons that success didn't continue and James was as much to blame as anyone else. And without going back and pulling up game recaps, I remember that Mo was the key to them winning one game, Shaq was the best player on the floor for important stretches of another game, Hickson (and probably West) didn't get time in situations that were taylor made for them, Jamison was reduced to a glorified jump shooter, and the entire team quit at the end of another game (we can speculate on some but when the coach is screaming "FOUL HIM" and all 5 players are just standing around, that can't be disputed).

Guess I did get into it more. Oh well.

[Brankles]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I think you're hurting your point when you mention the "coaching" done by Mike Brown... yet another factor weighing LeBron down.

Mike Brown lacked and strategy and player motivation during the C's series, two things that are required in coaching and two things the Cavs sorely missed in the playoffs. I can't imagine that locker room once LeBron heard about Delonte being with his mom.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I think you're hurting your point when you mention the "coaching" done by Mike Brown... yet another factor weighing LeBron down.

Mike Brown lacked and strategy and player motivation during the C's series, two things that are required in coaching and two things the Cavs sorely missed in the playoffs. I can't imagine that locker room once LeBron heard about Delonte being with his mom.

Maybe you don't understand what my point is then. You seem to want to see this thing in black and white when nothing (in life really) can be looked at that way.

Let me add (since I didn't really elaborate on my point), I've always maintained that the Cavs needed a new coach more than ANY other change coming into the new season. My disagreement with you is that the Cavs (minus James) were horrible and that he apparently could never win with that team (or any other similar statement). His teammates didn't let him down, the entire team let the Cavs fans down, INCLUDING James and starting at the head of the beast... the coach.

[Jasong7777]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

People can point to rosters all they want, but the Cavs were good enough to win a title. What they lacked was a superstar with heart and leadership skills.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

If you're saying hindsight is 20/20, then you're recognizing that LeBron's teams do suck.

But while you recognize how bad his team was you simultaneously blame LeBron for not winning a championship.

So what is it? Did Cleveland lose because he had a bad team or because LeBron wasn't a good enough player?

Was his inability to carry a team to the championship, a team that had a starting lineup of of Maurice Williams, 34 year old Anthony Parker, 33 year old Antawn Jamison, and 36 year old Shaq, something that he can be blamed for? Or is it something that would have been completely unprecedented, something that Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird or Isiah Thomas have NEVER done? Something that has never been done in the modern NBA era?

Again, look at the rosters of the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Spurs, Rockets, Heat and Bulls championship teams and compare that to LeBron's teams.

I think it's a testament to how great LeBron is that so many people expected him to win with these Cleveland teams. That so many people were disappointed and let down that LeBron could not carry a team where his best teammate was a 2nd round draft pick, shoot first PG who made the All-Star team once, only after three players ahead of him got injured.

You all weren't expecting greatness out of LeBron, you were expecting the impossible. And he was very close to delivering it.

Mo Williams is a shoot-first, streaky point guard
34 year old Anthony Parker is a dime a dozen player
33 year old Antawn Jamison is half the player he was three years ago
36 year old Shaq is one quarter of the player he was three years ago

The bench of Z, Varejao, Moon, West, Hickson is above average, but nothing to write home about

Like I said, if you really think LeBron should have won a championship with this team (which he could have if his teammates ever showed up, which never happened), then it's a testament to how great you think he is. If you compare this team to the champions of the last 30 years, it would be one of a kind, easily the worst supporting cast surrounding a superstar to have won a title.

I feel like people don't realize this point: if it wasn't for James, they wouldn't have had those lofty expectations, and that James masked a majority of Cleveland's shortcomings.

He is the sole reason they were title contenders.

You put any other player, Kobe Wade Melo Howard, anyone, I don't see Cleveland as a title team.

You put any of LeBron's teams up against what Kobe had post-Shaq and I don't see much of a difference.

So stop with the barbs at James as if anyone else could have carried that team to a ring.

[Brankles]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Maybe you don't understand what my point is then. You seem to want to see this thing in black and white when nothing (in life really) can be looked at that way.

Let me add (since I didn't really elaborate on my point), I've always maintained that the Cavs needed a new coach more than ANY other change coming into the new season. My disagreement with you is that the Cavs (minus James) were horrible and that he apparently could never win with that team (or any other similar statement). His teammates didn't let him down, the entire team let the Cavs fans down, INCLUDING James and starting at the head of the beast... the coach.

And my point is that the Cavs didn't have a chance of winning with the way that LeBron's supporting cast was playing. A few "mediocre" games from LeBron and that's all it took for them to get knocked out of the playoffs from the Celtics. Other players on other teams had the luxury to have an off game and LeBron didn't.

LeBron's teams were so good because LeBron was so good. They won 66 games playing "give the ball to LeBron and watch" basketball. And when teams schemed around that in the playoffs, the Cavs lost. There was no one to defer to, no one to help carry the team when LeBron was tired or his jumper was off.

So yes, LeBron had some bad games. The difference between the Cavs and the Lakers/Celtics/Magic was that Cleveland wasn't capable of winning when their superstar had an off night, but those teams were.

People can point to rosters all they want, but the Cavs were good enough to win a title. What they lacked was a superstar with heart and leadership skills.

Are you saying there's another player alive right now that could have won a championship with that team? Because that's a whole other Pandora's Box I don't really want to get into right now, and it involves Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant failing with similar supporting casts.

[Jasong7777]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

We don't know what that team could have won. Their "leader" quit in the middle of the ****ing series. Who knows what might have happen. I think its the cavs that masked alot of Lebrons shortcomings. Wade will continue to mask them in Miami.

[Brankles]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I feel like people don't realize this point: if it wasn't for James, they wouldn't have had those lofty expectations, and that James masked a majority of Cleveland's shortcomings.

He is the sole reason they were title contenders.

You put any other player, Kobe Wade Melo Howard, anyone, I don't see Cleveland as a title team.

You put any of LeBron's teams up against what Kobe had post-Shaq and I don't see much of a difference.

So stop with the barbs at James as if anyone else could have carried that team to a ring.

Right on point, thanks EC

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

We don't know what that team could have won. Their "leader" quit in the middle of the ****ing series. Who knows what might have happen. I think its the cavs that masked alot of Lebrons shortcomings. Wade will continue to mask them in Miami.

Do you believe Kobe or Wade or Durant could have won a ring with any of James' teams of the past 7 years?

[Brankles]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

We don't know what that team could have won. Their "leader" quit in the middle of the ****ing series. Who knows what might have happen. I think its the cavs that masked alot of Lebrons shortcomings. Wade will continue to mask them in Miami.

Yes, Maurice Williams and Mike Brown covered up a lot of LeBron's short comings

[Jasong7777]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Do you believe Kobe, Wade, or Durant would have quit on their team in the middle of a series in which they were the favorites.

[Jasong7777]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

The real questions is why did Lebron quit?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Do you believe Kobe, Wade, or Durant would have quit on their team in the middle of a series in which they were the favorites.

1/3 has already done that on and off the court, regardless of "who were the favorites".

Answer the question, but I'm sure you already know the answer.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2...emi_stats.html

If LeBron quit, what do you call what the rest of the Cavs did? Shaq played 23 mpg. Mo Williams shot 40% from the field. Z played 3 games. Jamison averaged 12 and 7.

LeBron led the team in total points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks that series.

I guess it's his fault that he didn't have Pau Gasol and Ron Artest to tip in his missed buzzer-beaters

I'd rather look at the games themselves.

Game 1

LeBron: 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 turnovers, +7

Mo: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 turnover, +23

Shaq: 11 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnvoer, +1

Ant: 7 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, +11

Game 2

Bron: 24 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 turnovers, -16

Mo: 4 points, 2 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 turnover, -16

Shaq: 9 points, 1 assist, 1 turnover, -18

Ant: 16 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, -13

Game 3

Bron: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 turnover, +30

Mo: 12 points, 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 turnovers, +20

Shaq: 12 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, +22

Ant: 20 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, +27

Game 4

Bron: 22 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 7 turnovers, -10

Mo: 13 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 turnovers, +9

Shaq: 17 points, 5 rebounds, 0 assists, 3 turnovers, +1

Ant: 14 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, +3

Game 5

Bron: 15 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 turnovers, -22

Mo: 9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 2 turnovers, -27

Shaq: 21 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, -26

Ant: 9 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 turnovers, -33

Game 6

Bron: 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 9 turnovers, -5

Mo: 22 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 turnovers, -12

Shaq: 11 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover, -6

Ant: 5 points, 5 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -1

It's a myth that Bron didn't have any help and certainly a myth that he won the games they did win by himself.