The LeBron James Thread

[Cebby]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

No..No.....don't answer the question with a question...lol Just answer the question.

They're two vastly different answers.

Lebron's athletic talent is in another world from Kobe and possibly anyone else in basketball history.

Kobe's basketball talent is in another world from Lebron's and just about everyone in basketball history.

[Brankles]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

This is pretty much a different way of saying the same thing we're talking in circles about (which is understandable as I'm doing the same thing). So predictably, I'm going to say no, that's not a good example of what I'm saying... for a couple of reasons.

First, I don't care if Lebron never wins a title. I personally don't use rings to evaluate a player. In many cases they are icing on the cake. In Lebron's case, rings in Cleveland could've vaulted him to an unthinkable level but that's hardly my standard. That was just a possibility that he gave up on. But the Cavs did not need to be clicking on all cylinders every night. A team that wins 66 regular season games has proven they find ways to win when everything isn't clicking. And also like I just said in the last post, they may have won this year if Lebron (and others) didn't quit at important times in a game or two... we'll never know. You're assuming that winning this year was out of the question and I just don't understand that when you know he quit in those games. Take that out of it and I'd probably be on your side, but it happened and can't be ignored.

Your other examples don't fly because my analogy with grades is all about expectations. When I expected Jordan to get straight A's he got straight A's. If you want to give Kobe a B+, A- or whatever, the grades that he got have been what I've expected him to get or very close. I'm not sure why you want to compare anyway because I'm only talking about Lebron but if you want to put them in the analogy the way I intended, so be it. Both Kobe and Jordan worked their way through adversity and ended up on top. Lebron transferred to an easier school.

I'm comparing the two because people in this argument and in the media proclaim Kobe as some great champion and leader when really he's done the same thing as LeBron (or worse) when he was on team's similar to LeBron's best Cavs teams. It's to bring context to this standard you're putting on LeBron and how unfair it is.

You want to talk about drafting Pippen and trading for Gasol, but neither player were established enough to assure anything (and we can include Phil in the Jordan years) at that time. Again, hindsight is 20/20. You want to talk about Kobe crying for help but that wasn't a Lakers team that won 60+ games two years in a row and then Gasol was brought in and Kobe stuck around to see if it would work. Jordan and Pippen didn't win right away but they stuck around as the team continued to be built into a powerhouse. And both cases are ignoring what I've repeated over and over... players with the same resume look different AFTER winning a championship. Throwing out names like Lamar Odom, an old Ron Artest and Derek Fisher is a joke if we're not talking about a championship team. We can even include the oft-injured Bynum in that mix.

Kobe would never have won 60 games with LeBron's team. Kobe's 45 wins or whatever he did with the Lakers roster was equivalent to what LeBron did with his Cavs roster. The only difference is that LeBron is a better player than Kobe and took his team to a higher level than Kobe could have with his.

Again, hindsight is 20/20, and the Lakers made the right moves to get a championship team by getting Gasol and getting a defensive stopper in Artest. The Bulls made the right moves by getting Kukoc, Pippen and Horace Grant.

The Cavs made moves like signing Jamario Moon, Antawn Jamison and old Shaq. That's bad management.

And the funny thing about you saying Artest and Odom are a joke if we're not talking about a championship team... those two players would have been LeBron's two best teammates in his entire seven year career.

To quote you, "he's not much different than any other legend who has come up short playing on a bad team." That's you calling it a "bad" team (that's for ex), and the difference here is that the two examples you presented wanted their team to be better one way or another and the standings and playoff results show that Lebron's team was better than those teams you're comparing them to. And yes, I say playoff results because this year they ran through the first round and the 2nd is a what if because the superstar quit.

It's a bad team compared to any championship team of the last 30 years. I've said it plenty of times, Mo Williams, Jamison and Shaq are run-of-the-mill NBA players. They're nothing special, they're complementary and not supplementary. None of them would be starting on the Lakers, Magic or Celtics.

Loser and heartless are your words. Being a follower is in someone's personality. He's shown frontrunner tendencies which is consistent with followers. He's made horrible decisions that seem to be tied directly to the advice of his friends. He specifically said he's happy about not having to be as dominant in games. He seems like a follower.

A follower who has won MVP twice and taken a joke of a team to the Finals and to all of the other accomplishments I mentioned earlier.

Now I will say that if he's a follower, with the amount of talent he has he makes a perfect side kick. Garnett is a perfect side kick too. So was Pippen. I don't know why you're insulted by these thoughts (or think they're insults to him). It's almost like Barkley saying "I'm not a role model." Just because the guy has all the talent in the world doesn't mean he's got the personality, killer instinct and maturity to be a leader of a championship team. Sometimes you have to put the things that make you go Ooooo and Aaaaaah aside and just look at them as people.

Well if he's a follower, I really don't know if there's any leaders in the NBA right now. Or if there ever has been a leader besides Bird, Magic or Jordan.

And I think you're equating team success with individual effort, and that's not the case. If LeBron played games like he did against the Celtics, but with the Lakers roster... we might not be talking at all right now about this. That Lakers team would have covered up any frustration or holes he had in his game. Playing with a bad team will wear you down and expose every flaw you might have as that team's leader. And while I don't agree with LeBron not giving his full effort or playing like MVP LeBron, I can certainly see why it happened... because it happened to great players before him on every level of the sport, which is why I'm not going to label him as a follower and weak-minded.


I can't believe I've defended LeBron because I really don't like the guy. I think he's a child in a man's body and a basketball robot with an annoying personality. Michael Jordan, had he grown up in the age of the internet, would likely have a negative public opinion of him as a person, too. But at the same time, when LeBron steps on the court, he understands the game on every single level. He elevates the play of his teammates, encourages them, and tries his best to mix his strengths with theirs. There's a reason why he's the highest APG non-point guard in NBA history and why he has two MVPs (should have been three.) By his play alone, he's a leader, and by his understanding of the game he leads his teammates by example. He's only 25 and he still has plenty of time to continue to develop his leadership abilities. He deserves the hate for leaving the way he did and the antics surrounding it, but his time in Cleveland was completely positive for the franchise, for his teammates and for him. He took them almost as far as they could go, to the Finals, to the best record in the league, and for himself to many individual awards.

LeBron is a great, he plays like a great, and honestly, he acts like a lot of greats.

He's just never been on a great team.

So for all this hate he gets for not being a leader, for not winning on a crappy team (in relation to championship teams, wwharton), it's time for him to join the likes of Magic, Bird and Jordan and win on a great team. It was the easy way out, but at the same time it may have been the only way out. It was either that, or hearing people like you call him out year after year for not taking Mo Williams, Old A** Shaq and Old A** Antawn Jamison to the promised land. Or have everyone do the "what if" after he retires, the same way I have to do with TMac and others have to do with Barkley, Malone and Stockton.


Alright, I'm off to Key West! Good debate, wwharton

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

lebron james has the most natural gifts to play basketball.
kobe bryant has the most skills of any basketball player i can recall.

as for which one of these distinctions equates to "talent" is up to you.

They're two vastly different answers.

Lebron's athletic talent is in another world from Kobe and possibly anyone else in basketball history.

Kobe's basketball talent is in another world from Lebron's and just about everyone in basketball history.

These were 2 great answers lol

[nuckles2k2]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

But I can agree with this post to a point.

Who has more talent? Kobe or LeBron?...Not who is better?

as in who has more natural gifts for basketball? or who has more skills?

No..No.....don't answer the question with a question...lol Just answer the question.

lebron james has the most natural gifts to play basketball.
kobe bryant has the most skills of any basketball player i can recall.

as for which one of these distinctions equates to "talent" is up to you.

They're two vastly different answers.

Lebron's athletic talent is in another world from Kobe and possibly anyone else in basketball history.

Kobe's basketball talent is in another world from Lebron's and just about everyone in basketball history.

These were 2 great answers lol

Am I seeing this correctly?

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I'm going blind...You tell me...

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I'm comparing the two because people in this argument and in the media proclaim Kobe as some great champion and leader when really he's done the same thing as LeBron (or worse) when he was on team's similar to LeBron's best Cavs teams. It's to bring context to this standard you're putting on LeBron and how unfair it is.

Fair enough. I'll just say that's them, not me, but if I can bring up grades in a school system, using Kobe/MJ as examples should be ok too, lol. In terms of the discussion, I don't think Kobe is a great champion. I think he's grown into a leader. I think it's kind of silly to harp on what happened before he grew into a leader, and to be fair, Lebron could still grow into a leader... I just think it's less likely now that he won't have to, and the move seemed like he was running away from it.

Kobe would never have won 60 games with LeBron's team. Kobe's 45 wins or whatever he did with the Lakers roster was equivalent to what LeBron did with his Cavs roster. The only difference is that LeBron is a better player than Kobe and took his team to a higher level than Kobe could have with his.

Again, hindsight is 20/20, and the Lakers made the right moves to get a championship team by getting Gasol and getting a defensive stopper in Artest. The Bulls made the right moves by getting Kukoc, Pippen and Horace Grant.

The Cavs made moves like signing Jamario Moon, Antawn Jamison and old Shaq. That's bad management.

And the funny thing about you saying Artest and Odom are a joke if we're not talking about a championship team... those two players would have been LeBron's two best teammates in his entire seven year career.

This is an example of saying his teammates suck (exaggerating) and then using that opinion to validate your argument. I'm not just saying his teammates were good, I'm giving information to back it up... more substantial information than "he's old", "he chokes in the playoffs" etc. Shaq was the best player on the Cavs when James stopped playing. Both Jamison and Mo put up borderline All star stats before joining the team. Jamison was there for a short time but Mo's stats pretty much remained the same or improved after joining the Cavs. Their stats in the Celtics series were posted in this thread and they were about as should be expected.

You're saying things like "Kobe wouldn't have won 60 games with Lebron's team". Prove it. And if that were true how much would coaching play into that? How much would the history of coaching before the move play into it (Kobe's been coached by Phil for years)? Honestly everything you said in this last quote is your personal opinion with no proof solid or flimsy. I can simply say I disagree on all counts (which I pretty much do) and there's nothing you can say to prove me wrong. I can at least point at the history of the players including what they've done this year.

It's a bad team compared to any championship team of the last 30 years. I've said it plenty of times, Mo Williams, Jamison and Shaq are run-of-the-mill NBA players. They're nothing special, they're complementary and not supplementary. None of them would be starting on the Lakers, Magic or Celtics.

More of the same. For argument's sake I'd say Mo would be starting over Fisher and Jamison would "start" over Odom. Artest would probably get the nod for defense but Jamison would dig into his minutes more than Odom does and is definitely an overall better player at this point in both of their careers. I wouldn't compare them to the Magic or Celtics bc those teams aren't built around one offensive superstar like the Cavs were. But again, all opinions that have nothing to lean on to justify it.

A follower who has won MVP twice and taken a joke of a team to the Finals and to all of the other accomplishments I mentioned earlier.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well if he's a follower, I really don't know if there's any leaders in the NBA right now. Or if there ever has been a leader besides Bird, Magic or Jordan.

And I think you're equating team success with individual effort, and that's not the case. If LeBron played games like he did against the Celtics, but with the Lakers roster... we might not be talking at all right now about this. That Lakers team would have covered up any frustration or holes he had in his game. Playing with a bad team will wear you down and expose every flaw you might have as that team's leader. And while I don't agree with LeBron not giving his full effort or playing like MVP LeBron, I can certainly see why it happened... because it happened to great players before him on every level of the sport, which is why I'm not going to label him as a follower and weak-minded.

Like I said, you seem offended by the term "follower". Everyone in the world has either the personality of a follower or a leader. For argument sake, lets say it's 50/50 (I have no idea what it really is) but does that mean we should look down on 50% of the world? There are PLENTY of successful followers... very successful followers. Again, it's a personality type. The negative for being a "leader" could come if you make irresponsible decisions. A negative for a follower is following the advice or lead of others that make irresponsible decisions. That's simplifying it but the point is it's not meant as an insult. In James case, I think following someone like Wade will be VERY beneficial for his personal growth and may help him grow into a leader. However, following the knuckleheads from Akron is destroying his brand. Being a follower and being weak minded are not synonymous, but together are a bad combination. I don't think Lebron is weak minded. I think he's immature. That's also CAN be a bad combination with being a follower, but can also easily change.

And most importantly, that's an assessment as a person, not a basketball player. In terms of basketball, the combination separates him from the likes of Kobe and MJ, and that obviously only becomes apparent when we get to a level that his talent alone can't carry him. The assist number means very little to me. Big O should be considered a SF, and the attention that he gets because of his raw talent makes it pretty easy to get as many assists as he wants. Like I said in the other thread, lets not act like he's Steve Nash or John Stockton. Jordan could've gotten that many assists, he just didn't want to pass the ball to anybody. Even still, LBJ is a freak of a talent but it takes the mental aspect to get over the top and he's not there at this point. Before "the Decision" I think I can even find a quote where I said he's not there "yet" but now I'm not sure if "yet" will ever come bc it may never have to.

I can't believe I've defended LeBron because I really don't like the guy. I think he's a child in a man's body and a basketball robot with an annoying personality. Michael Jordan, had he grown up in the age of the internet, would likely have a negative public opinion of him as a person, too. But at the same time, when LeBron steps on the court, he understands the game on every single level. He elevates the play of his teammates, encourages them, and tries his best to mix his strengths with theirs. There's a reason why he's the highest APG non-point guard in NBA history and why he has two MVPs (should have been three.) By his play alone, he's a leader, and by his understanding of the game he leads his teammates by example. He's only 25 and he still has plenty of time to continue to develop his leadership abilities. He deserves the hate for leaving the way he did and the antics surrounding it, but his time in Cleveland was completely positive for the franchise, for his teammates and for him. He took them almost as far as they could go, to the Finals, to the best record in the league, and for himself to many individual awards.

LeBron is a great, he plays like a great, and honestly, he acts like a lot of greats.

He's just never been on a great team.

I really think you're giving him too much credit based on his natural talent. Lebron is great and it doesn't matter what team he's played on. He's already a future Hall of Famer. But just bc he's a great talent doesn't mean all other aspects of great players are on the same level as his talent.

So for all this hate he gets for not being a leader, for not winning on a crappy team (in relation to championship teams, wwharton), it's time for him to join the likes of Magic, Bird and Jordan and win on a great team. It was the easy way out, but at the same time it may have been the only way out. It was either that, or hearing people like you call him out year after year for not taking Mo Williams, Old A** Shaq and Old A** Antawn Jamison to the promised land. Or have everyone do the "what if" after he retires, the same way I have to do with TMac and others have to do with Barkley, Malone and Stockton.

Ok, this just isn't fair. First of all I don't hate the guy. And my criticism has been very specific. I'm debating some things with you that are issues for other people but us talking about the Cavs being able to win eventually if he stayed does not mean I hate him for giving up that possibility... I say that over and over.

And to make it worse, people like me calling him out year after year? People like me? I thought I was the blind one that didn't realize that he'd turn into KG if he didn't leave... but no, I'd be calling him out for not winning? I honestly can't think of another way of putting it but that's f*d up. We've both posted waaaaay too much on this topic for you to get out of it that people "like me" would do that.

Alright, I'm off to Key West! Good debate, wwharton

Man, I wish I could join you and finish this debate with a cold one and some bikinis running by. I guess in that sense, you win. Have fun.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Jeez that was a long post. Sorry fellas.

Good debate, Brankles. I hope we at least kept the rest of you entertained.

[Jasong7777]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Good debate indeed fellas.

[Brock]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

This is why I love OS.

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Exactly!...Its only reason I come here. We are all grown men at the end of day. And understand its only a game. Thank god its not the 2k forums.

[Vaiasucks]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

This is why basketball is so great... You can argue points like this for hours.

I'm just happy to be a basketball fan.

[Scott812313]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

They're two vastly different answers.

Lebron's athletic talent is in another world from Kobe and possibly anyone else in basketball history.

Kobe's basketball talent is in another world from Lebron's and just about everyone in basketball history.

That's a little shortsighted isn't it? Kobe was one of the most athletic players ever in his younger days. I will say LeBron is more athletic than Kobe ever was, but it's alot closer than comparing LeBrons basketball skill with Kobes, which isn't close at all.

[Scott812313]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I think you're asking a mighty lot out of what the Cavs had, which is great if you're the Cavs coach, but bad if you're comparing it to the potential of other teams.

The Celtics, Magic and Lakers all had better coaching and better players. These teams peaked in the playoffs (except maybe Orlando). You had Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins and Big Baby playing at an extremely high level and fairly consistently. Then you had a defensive mastermind of Tom Thibodeau scheming LeBron and outthinking Brown. There were the Jordan Rules and last playoffs there were the James Rules.

If you're expecting the best out of the Cavs you also have to expect the best out of the other teams. You have to respect your opponents, and the Celtics were worthy of that respect. Man for man, minus LeBron, they were better than the Cavs.



The Cavs needed to play at their peak to get deep into the playoffs. They needed to be maxed out in their potential. Those other teams had the luxury of playing their B or C game and still winning, the Cavs did not.



I'll concede that LeBron did not show up for at least one of the games against the Celtics, but does that completely remove what he did the rest of the season?

And what the rest of the NBA legends and Hall of Famers have never accomplished before?

Does that make everyone before him who couldn't win with an All-Star reserve PG, a 33 year old undersized jump shooting PF and a 37 year old, overweight center, as players who lack heart and leadership?

Yes, I understand that LeBron did not give his full effort in the playoffs last year. Kobe's done the exact same thing multiple times... but for some reason he has the reputation of being the Black Mamba, a relentless competitor and a great leader and teacher to his teammates. Yet LeBron takes this team further than anyone else playing today could, and he fails to show up in a playoff series and he's now written off as a sidekick by so many.



You're asking LeBron to deliver a 4.0 in courses no one else has ever delivered all A's in. Jordan took the same courses and got a 3.5, and he's the greatest of all time. Kobe got a 2.7 in those classes when his tutor Shaq left. Magic and Bird took easier courses and got 4.0s. They never had to take those hard courses. Jordan eventually got a 4.0 after his course load lightened up. Kobe and Pierce have been taking gym class and wood shop for the last three seasons and you're praising them for getting their A's.

Sometimes studying for those courses that no one else can get A's in wears you down and you let up. And then sometimes while you're studying, your teammate is sleeping with your mom and you can't think about studying.

Unreal. Kobe is regarded that way because he has FIVE (5) rings! I always love the 2nd thing I highlighted too, so here you go:

<TABLE class="playerStatTable careerAvg" borderColor=#cccccc cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=title><TD class=year>Year</TD><TD class=team>Team</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>GS</TD><TD>MPG</TD><TD>FG%</TD><TD>3P%</TD><TD>FT%</TD><TD>OFF</TD><TD>DEF</TD><TD>RPG</TD><TD>APG</TD><TD>SPG</TD><TD>BPG</TD><TD>TO</TD><TD>PF</TD><TD>PPG</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class="playerStatTable careerAvg" borderColor=#cccccc cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=""><TD class=yr><TABLE class="playerStatTable careerAvg" borderColor=#cccccc cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>99-00</TD><TD class=tm>LAL</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>39.0</TD><TD>0.442</TD><TD>0.344</TD><TD>0.754</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>3.3</TD><TD>4.5</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>2.50</TD><TD>4.05</TD><TD>21.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class="playerStatTable careerAvg" borderColor=#cccccc cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=""><TD class=yr>00-01</TD><TD class=tm>LAL</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>43.4</TD><TD>0.469</TD><TD>0.324</TD><TD>0.821</TD><TD>1.8</TD><TD>5.4</TD><TD>7.3</TD><TD>6.1</TD><TD>1.6</TD><TD>0.8</TD><TD>3.19</TD><TD>3.31</TD><TD>29.4</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>01-02</TD><TD class=tm>LAL</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>43.8</TD><TD>0.434</TD><TD>0.379</TD><TD>0.759</TD><TD>1.5</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>5.8</TD><TD>4.6</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>0.9</TD><TD>2.84</TD><TD>3.42</TD><TD>26.6</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>02-03</TD><TD class=tm>LAL</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>44.3</TD><TD>0.432</TD><TD>0.403</TD><TD>0.827</TD><TD>1.3</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>5.1</TD><TD>5.2</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>0.1</TD><TD>3.50</TD><TD>2.92</TD><TD>32.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=tm></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>01-02</TD><TD class=tm>LAL</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>43.8</TD><TD>0.434</TD><TD>0.379</TD><TD>0.759</TD><TD>1.5</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>5.8</TD><TD>4.6</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>0.9</TD><TD>2.84</TD><TD>3.42</TD><TD>26.6</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>02-03</TD><TD class=tm>LAL</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>44.3</TD><TD>0.432</TD><TD>0.403</TD><TD>0.827</TD><TD>1.3</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>5.1</TD><TD>5.2</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>0.1</TD><TD>3.50</TD><TD>2.92</TD><TD>32.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Those look like numbers of a guy just along for the ride, right?

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

That's a little shortsighted isn't it? Kobe was one of the most athletic players ever in his younger days. I will say LeBron is more athletic than Kobe ever was, but it's alot closer than comparing LeBrons basketball skill with Kobes, which isn't close at all.

You see its basically your opinion at the end of the day. No matter what anyone will say. They will always bring in some of factor or situation or BS into the conversation. No one's mind changes in here. You can post all the stats you want. At the end of the day its your opinion. I've come to the end that I love both players now equally. Both are very good in different situations. The only thing that keeps players so distant (for some). Are the rings at the end of the day.

[The15thunter]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

That's a little shortsighted isn't it? Kobe was one of the most athletic players ever in his younger days. I will say LeBron is more athletic than Kobe ever was, but it's alot closer than comparing LeBrons basketball skill with Kobes, which isn't close at all.

i think lebron is by far and away the greatest physical specimen to grace the nba. kobe was/is a great athlete, but lebron is on a level by himself in terms of sheer physical capabilities. every physical measurable leans in the favor of lebron without question.