The LeBron James Thread

**Mo_Magic** · 08-06-2010, 02:11 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by jeebs9

I mean I totally understand your 2 points. But they are a little flawed. Someone could easily say..."Don't you need the ball in your hands to get assist." lol I mean PG's dominate the ball don't they. Magic, Kidd, and Stockon dominate the ball. They have to they're point guards lol. Your second point actually fights with your next paragraph. Weren't defenses geared up to stop MJ and Kobe. Why don't they average more assist?

Basically....Some guys are comfortable making that beauitful pass and other are more comfortable shooting over 2-3 guys face. Its just different philosophy. Or different comfortable situations for each player.

And again..I just wanted to hear your point of view.

edit: Because at the end of the day. "2 points is 2 points"

I think a lot of the reason comes from the triangle offense.
I mean, I'm not saying Kobe and Jordan are in the same league as LeBron passing, but Jordan threw up 32, 8 and 8 and before the Phil Jackson years had a career average of 5.93 assist a game(I included his injury second year also, otherwise, he'd be over six).

Kobe averaged six assist a game in his one year out of the triangle, even, which I think is pretty impressive if you take into account it was a new offense and the first time he'd really played in a more conventional "NBA type" offense.

LeBron is undoubtedly a better passer... and the gap is rather large... but he's not leagues ahead of everyone in that regard. He's probably a couple notches above the Kobe/Jordan mold player and couple notches below players like Paul, Nash, Stockton, and Magic from a passing standpoint.

Of course, it's incredibly hard to judge, especially seeing as he scores at a much higher volume than any of the previously mentioned PG's.

He's excellent, especially considering his size.

**wwharton** · 08-06-2010, 02:27 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by jeebs9

Here is a good question...WW....Who is a better passer LeBron or Rondo?

Also WW....I understood your point of view in the very first post.

Second part... my bad, guess I didn't get what you wanted me to explain.

First part, I'm honestly not sure. I think they're both extremes in different ways. LBJ's an extreme bc of his scoring ability (as mentioned) and Rondo's an extreme bc of the players around him and his role in that offense. Since both are very good passers as it is, adding other factors to increase their numbers kind of makes it hard to get a true assessment.

Gun to my head I'd say Rondo. It's his role in the offense and he does it well, and he creates shots for other players besides the big 3. But that's taking credit away from James for having an advantage bc of the defense played against him which isn't really fair.

If either was on a team where they weren't allowed to shoot and the defense knew that, which would have the most assists? I'm going Rondo by a nose hair.

Originally posted by Mo_Magic

I think a lot of the reason comes from the triangle offense.
I mean, I'm not saying Kobe and Jordan are in the same league as LeBron passing, but Jordan threw up 32, 8 and 8 and before the Phil Jackson years had a career average of 5.93 assist a game(I included his injury second year also, otherwise, he'd be over six).

Kobe averaged six assist a game in his one year out of the triangle, even, which I think is pretty impressive if you take into account it was a new offense and the first time he'd really played in a more conventional "NBA type" offense.

LeBron is undoubtedly a better passer... and the gap is rather large... but he's not leagues ahead of everyone in that regard. He's probably a couple notches above the Kobe/Jordan mold player and couple notches below players like Paul, Nash, Stockton, and Magic from a passing standpoint.

Of course, it's incredibly hard to judge, especially seeing as he scores at a much higher volume than any of the previously mentioned PG's.

He's excellent, especially considering his size.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel. Not a knock on Lebron... it's actually a compliment that his passing is being compared to PGs at all. This whole discussion came up when daThorne said that Lebron's passing was compared to Magic and I was disagreeing (couldn't remember how it started before but now it's full circle).

**Mo_Magic** · 08-06-2010, 02:40 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by wwharton

That's pretty much exactly how I feel. Not a knock on Lebron... it's actually a compliment that his passing is being compared to PGs at all. This whole discussion came up when daThorne said that Lebron's passing was compared to Magic and I was disagreeing (couldn't remember how it started before but now it's full circle).

Yeah, the guy is good... and it honestly wouldn't surprise me at all that he could be historically good with less scoring output... but I wouldn't say he is a better passer than the best passing points in the league now(Paul, Nash) or the some of the best of all time(Stockton, Magic, Paul[he's had two of the greatest passing years ever already], Nash).

[and when I throw Paul in there now, he's obviously not on their level from a career standpoint, but he certainly is when you look at the numbers and his teams make-up... basically, talent wise, he's right there... just gotta pull it together and stay healthy]

I think there's a chance he's capable, I just really don't think that he can with this team... especially since that Cavs' team was basically tailor made for him to rack up assist... and I certainly am not going to put him up there with the best passers of the rock ever unless he PROVES it.

**wwharton** · 08-06-2010, 03:32 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by Mo_Magic

Yeah, the guy is good... and it honestly wouldn't surprise me at all that he could be historically good with less scoring output... but I wouldn't say he is a better passer than the best passing points in the league now(Paul, Nash) or the some of the best of all time(Stockton, Magic, Paul[he's had two of the greatest passing years ever already], Nash).

[and when I throw Paul in there now, he's obviously not on there level from a career standpoint, but he certainly is when you look at the numbers and his teams make-up... basically, talent wise, he's right there... just gotta pull it together and stay healthy]

I think there's a chance he's capable, I just really don't think that he can with this team... especially since that Cavs' team was basically tailor made for him to rack up assist... and I certainly am not going to put him up there with the best passers of the rock ever unless he PROVES it.

Very true... all on point.

**da ThRONe** · 08-06-2010, 04:23 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

WWharton ask for links to people comparing LeBron to Magic well here a couple I found.

LeBron's skills rival the greats, but he's excelling at a younger age: The Making of an MVP

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2009/12/lebrons_skills_rival_the_recen.html

What makes LeBron different is he can do everything, and is doing it at a younger age than nearly anyone has done it before. He also is doing it at a historic pace. He won his first MVP award at the age of 24. Most players don't peak until their late 20s.

Why LeBron Doesn't Compare to Kobe...or Jordan

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/349160-why-lebron-doesnt-compare-to-kobeor-jordan

The Kobe and LeBron debate started during James' second year in the league. There are many people who have already dubbed him the "next Jordan." There are others who say Kobe is a better comparison to Jordan...

**da ThRONe** · 08-06-2010, 04:31 PM

Magic Johnson contradicts himself about LeBron's Decision.

Magic being one of the "old vets" that spoke out against LeBron James joining with Wade and Bosh in South Beach. But this quote was from him in 1991.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life." Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."

Magic Johnson sought elite teammates too

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too

Magic Johnson joins the cavalcade of those saying, essentially, hey LeBron James, real men don't play with superstars."We didn't think about it 'cause that's not what we were about," Johnson said at Baruch College in New York, according to Bloomberg News.

**da ThRONe** · 08-06-2010, 04:36 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I will always agree with anybody who says stats dont always tell the true story. But LeBron is an excellent passer. And IMO belongs mentioned with the best in the league now and the best of all times especially for a forwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

**wwharton** · 08-06-2010, 04:47 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by da ThRONe

WWharton ask for links to people comparing LeBron to Magic well here a couple I found.

LeBron's skills rival the greats, but he's excelling at a younger age: The Making of an MVP

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2009/12/lebrons_skills_rival_the_recen.html

What makes LeBron different is he can do everything, and is doing it at a younger age than nearly anyone has done it before. He also is doing it at a historic pace. He won his first MVP award at the age of 24. Most players don't peak until their late 20s.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-kobeor-jordan

The first article is an overall comparison of him to Jordan and Magic and some sort of Jorgic hybrid. Remember, we were discussing somewhere that directly compared his passing to Magic... and more specifically saying they are on the same level in that regard. Outside of a quote in the last paragraph where one guy says:

"When I first visualized LeBron playing in the NBA, I saw him more as Magic than Michael," said Dambrot. "I thought he was the best passer I'd ever seen. I thought he'd lead the league in assists. Then he developed into this scoring maniac. That really is not his personality. He is a combination of Magic and Michael. He had to go in the scoring direction in his first years with the Cavs because he didn't have all the pieces [talented teammates] to become Magic Johnson. So he became more Michael Jordan. But he's one of the few players who can be both, Magic or Michael. And that is a big part of what makes him great."

That's an evaluation of what he thought Lebron would be while he was still in HS and the "best passer I'd ever seen." is talking about HS games and can be taken with the same grain of salt we'd take the comment about him being able to be both Magic and Michael. It's a general statement about his game rather than a strict comparison of him to a player that's literally a combination of 2 of the best NBA players ever.

So compared to Magic? Yes... I said that when we were debating about it. Compared specifically to Magic as a passer (who's better or is he on par)? Not in this article.

With the second article (won't mention it being from bleacher report) this is the closest to what you were saying:

The best attribute that these two guys have is their precise passing ability. Whether it comes in transition, or from a double team, they are always able to find the open man for an easy shot. LeBron has made some incredible passes all throughout his career, and Magic, the same.

Ok... they've both made incredible passes in their career. I'm not sure I'd base an argument that Lebron is as good of a passer as Magic Johnson based on that.

As I said before, I understand comparisons to Magic. They both do things that a PG can do at the size of a PF. I also understand that Lebron has more of a "Magic mentality" in that he wants to be a passer (which is where this whole thing started if I remember correctly). It's the statement that he's as good of a passer as Magic and MUCH better than Jordan that got me to reply.

I will say this... the first article implies that James was forced into a role that he's ot comfortable with (even though he excelled at it). If his court vision and passing ability is on par with Magic then we should see him challenging Magic's career 11.2 assists per game record this season. And I know some predict he will... I don't think he will, so we'll see.

**wwharton** · 08-06-2010, 04:51 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by da ThRONe

I will always agree with anybody who says stats dont always tell the true story. But LeBron is an excellent passer. And IMO belongs mentioned with the best in the league now and the best of all times especially for a forwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

For forwards, yes. May be at the top of that list. Best of all time overall? Well you already know I think he falls a little short of that.

**da ThRONe** · 08-06-2010, 04:53 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by wwharton

The first article is an overall comparison of him to Jordan and Magic and some sort of Jorgic hybrid. Remember, we were discussing somewhere that directly compared his passing to Magic... and more specifically saying they are on the same level in that regard. Outside of a quote in the last paragraph where one guy says:

That's an evaluation of what he thought Lebron would be while he was still in HS and the "best passer I'd ever seen." is talking about HS games and can be taken with the same grain of salt we'd take the comment about him being able to be both Magic and Michael. It's a general statement about his game rather than a strict comparison of him to a player that's literally a combination of 2 of the best NBA players ever.

So compared to Magic? Yes... I said that when we were debating about it. Compared specifically to Magic as a passer (who's better or is he on par)? Not in this article.

With the second article (won't mention it being from bleacher report) this is the closest to what you were saying:

Ok... they've both made incredible passes in their career. I'm not sure I'd base an argument that Lebron is as good of a passer as Magic Johnson based on that.

As I said before, I understand comparisons to Magic. They both do things that a PG can do at the size of a PF. I also understand that Lebron has more of a "Magic mentality" in that he wants to be a passer (which is where this whole thing started if I remember correctly). It's the statement that he's as good of a passer as Magic and MUCH better than Jordan that got me to reply.

I will say this... the first article implies that James was forced into a role that he's ot comfortable with (even though he excelled at it). If his court vision and passing ability is on par with Magic then we should see him challenging Magic's career 11.2 assists per game record this season. And I know some predict he will... I don't think he will, so we'll see.

Well you ask for them and so I posted it.

As far as weither or not he's in that league of passer we can go back and forwards all day because that is mostly opinion based than anything. But here another video of LeBron's vision and passing skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfW1669YixI&feature=related

**utexas** · 08-06-2010, 05:00 PM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by da ThRONe

I will always agree with anybody who says stats dont always tell the true story. But LeBron is an excellent passer. And IMO belongs mentioned with the best in the league now and the best of all times especially for a forwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

Thanks for that vid!!!

**Scott812313** · 08-07-2010, 12:20 AM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by jeebs9

I mean I totally understand your 2 points. But they are a little flawed. Someone could easily say..."Don't you need the ball in your hands to get assist." lol I mean PG's dominate the ball don't they. Magic, Kidd, and Stockon dominate the ball. They have to they're point guards lol. Your second point actually fights with your next paragraph. Weren't defenses geared up to stop MJ and Kobe. Why don't they average more assist?

Basically....Some guys are comfortable making that beauitful pass and other are more comfortable shooting over 2-3 guys face. Its just different philosophy. Or different comfortable situations for each player.

And again..I just wanted to hear your point of view.

edit: Because at the end of the day. "2 points is 2 points"

That's easy. LeBron has always been "scared" in clutch situations, whereas MJ or Kobe live for those moments. Kobe made more game winning shots this season than LeBron has in his career. I know it's beating a dead horse but LeBron isn't built the same way as Kobe or MJ and he never will be. His true colors shined through when he signed on to be Wade's wingman. I posted in here months ago that LeBron as a "Batman" will never win a ring. I took alot of flack from the "Witnesses" about this. Then he proves me right a few months later....

**grob23lbj** · 08-07-2010, 03:19 AM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by Scott812313

That's easy. LeBron has always been "scared" in clutch situations, whereas MJ or Kobe live for those moments. Kobe made more game winning shots this season than LeBron has in his career. I know it's beating a dead horse but LeBron isn't built the same way as Kobe or MJ and he never will be. His true colors shined through when he signed on to be Wade's wingman. I posted in here months ago that LeBron as a "Batman" will never win a ring. I took alot of flack from the "Witnesses" about this. Then he proves me right a few months later....

You can't be serious! LOLOL.... I will just say this, Lebron has performed well in the clutch, in the playoofs at that. You don't remember detroit-washington and orlando. He avg. about 38-8-8 against the magic and hit big shots that whole series. He simply couldn't do anymore. And remember this. For all the clutch shots Kobe made he darn sure did miss a helluva lot.

I guess Jordan was scared win he passed the ball to BJ armstrong or steve kerr or paxson. You make the right basketball play. If being able to hit a buzzer beater is what makes you the better player I guess Melo is better than everyone in the league, cause his percentage is really high at the end of games. You no what? How about doing your best to avoid having to hit a last second shot to win anyways. Didn't Jordan win more when he started trusting his teammates? When he got better ones..LOL, besides they were knock down shooters from behind the arc. Kobe hits more buzzer beaters than Lebron but Lebron avg more points and assists after the 5 min. mark in the 4th quarter. Buzzer Beat that.LOLOL

And no matter what team Lebron go to he will be the best player on that team imo. So it may be Wades team but it will be the HEAT championship with Lebron as their best player.

And as Jeebs said "At the End OF The Day, Two Points Is Two Points".

**Brock** · 08-07-2010, 04:41 AM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

It'd be nice to see LeBron do any of this throughout the season.
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**BlueNGold** · 08-07-2010, 04:43 AM

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Originally posted by grob23lbj

You can't be serious! LOLOL.... I will just say this, Lebron has performed well in the clutch, in the playoofs at that. You don't remember detroit-washington and orlando. He avg. about 38-8-8 against the magic and hit big shots that whole series. He simply couldn't do anymore. And remember this. For all the clutch shots Kobe made he darn sure did miss a helluva lot.

I guess Jordan was scared win he passed the ball to BJ armstrong or steve kerr or paxson. You make the right basketball play. If being able to hit a buzzer beater is what makes you the better player I guess Melo is better than everyone in the league, cause his percentage is really high at the end of games. You no what? How about doing your best to avoid having to hit a last second shot to win anyways. Didn't Jordan win more when he started trusting his teammates? When he got better ones..LOL, besides they were knock down shooters from behind the arc. Kobe hits more buzzer beaters than Lebron but Lebron avg more points and assists after the 5 min. mark in the 4th quarter. Buzzer Beat that.LOLOL

And no matter what team Lebron go to he will be the best player on that team imo. So it may be Wades team but it will be the HEAT championship with Lebron as their best player.

And as Jeebs said "At the End OF The Day, Two Points Is Two Points".

For your own good, just ignore that douche. He's a known LeBron ***** so it's pointless to argue with him.

The LeBron James Thread

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