MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

[NINJAK2]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

What do you mean 'due to what'? What does that mean? I've seen Kobe's career, that's what I've seen. In my opinion, he has above average passing skills. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree. Your point about Lebron's ppg and high assist numbers doesn't take into account that Cleveland's offense consisted of 'give the ball to Lebron and get the **** out the way'. Lebron had carte blanche to amass eye popping stats. Kobe plays within the confines of the triangle offense, which by its design doesn't allow for one player to amass huge assists numbers. Lebron's ppg being higher than Kobe is irrelevant, Kobe started the first 2 years riding the bench behind Eddie Jones before being inserted into the starting lineup. I know you're not trying to make the argument that Lebron is a more talented scorer.... I'm not sure why you're even bringing Lebron into the argument. I know Lebron's a great passer, I said Kobe has above average passing skills which has nothing to do with Lebron James and his passing ability.

Oscar Robertson is a player from another era, that makes it very hard to gauge him against today's players. From what I've seen of him, the man didn't even have a left hand, but you're trying to convince me he's more skilled than Kobe? We'll agree to disagree, I'm bored of this back and forth.

Kobe and Pau have been nearly putting up Tripple Doubles every night this year. That whole arguement that the triangle doesn't allow players to accumuate assists is hogwash. Getting assists is about giving up the rock. The most prominent players in the triangle (MJ, Kobe, Shaq) liked to shoot the ball...alot which equates to less assits imo. Kobe has the talent around him to put up crazy assist numbers if he chose to play that way. He doesn't need to score 25 a night on this squad.

[hawaikui]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe and Pau have been nearly putting up Tripple Doubles every night this year. That whole arguement that the triangle doesn't allow players to accumuate assists is hogwash. Getting assists is about giving up the rock. The most prominent players in the triangle (MJ, Kobe, Shaq) liked to shoot the ball...alot which equates to less assits imo. Kobe has the talent around him to put up crazy assist numbers if he chose to play that way. He doesn't need to score 25 a night on this squad.

You notice the most assists Kobe averaged was during the years when he had the least talent on his team? That's when he was not playing in the triangle.

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

What do you mean 'due to what'? What does that mean? I've seen Kobe's career, that's what I've seen. In my opinion, he has above average passing skills. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree. Your point about Lebron's ppg and high assist numbers doesn't take into account that Cleveland's offense consisted of 'give the ball to Lebron and get the **** out the way'. Lebron had carte blanche to amass eye popping stats. Kobe plays within the confines of the triangle offense, which by its design doesn't allow for one player to amass huge assists numbers. Lebron's ppg being higher than Kobe is irrelevant, Kobe started the first 2 years riding the bench behind Eddie Jones before being inserted into the starting lineup. I know you're not trying to make the argument that Lebron is a more talented scorer.... I'm not sure why you're even bringing Lebron into the argument. I know Lebron's a great passer, I said Kobe has above average passing skills which has nothing to do with Lebron James and his passing ability.

Oscar Robertson is a player from another era, that makes it very hard to gauge him against today's players. From what I've seen of him, the man didn't even have a left hand, but you're trying to convince me he's more skilled than Kobe? We'll agree to disagree, I'm bored of this back and forth.

Lebron is more talented for me being able to score alot of points and being efficient doing it makes the player extremely talent, Lebron can avg 30 ppg and shoot 49/50% kobe on the other hand shots mid 40's

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

That whole arguement that the triangle doesn't allow players to accumuate assists is hogwash.

Nothing hogwash about it. The triangle isn't predicated on one player setting the table for everyone else and allowing their assist totals to accumulate, like Lebron in Cleveland. Also consider that Jordan averaged 8 assists one year( while average 33 points no less), and then as soon as the triangle was instituted, his assists went down. And no, this was before Pippen established himself, before you say that Pippen detracted from his numbers.

Lebron is more talented for me being able to score alot of points and being efficient doing it makes the player extremely talent, Lebron can avg 30 ppg and shoot 49/50% kobe on the other hand shots mid 40's

Kobe has far more offensive weapons in his arsenal than Lebron, that's not even a debate. The fact that Lebron has higher percentages is in large part because most of his game centers around slashing to the hoop, where his power and athleticism makes him all but impossible to stop. Perhaps that makes him more efficient, but more talented? Please. Asides from driving and finishing at the rim, there isn't a single thing that Lebron does better offensively. Kobe's a better spot up shooter, midrange, 3pt, post player. It's not even close really, if you're talking about repertoire of moves.

[sixzero]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe has earned his spot regardless of where that might be when he's done. He will never be looked at like Jordan but his career is not close to over. He has a lot left. We'll see.

[NINJAK2]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Nothing hogwash about it. The triangle isn't predicated on one player setting the table for everyone else and allowing their assist totals to accumulate, like Lebron in Cleveland. Also consider that Jordan averaged 8 assists one year( while average 33 points no less), and then as soon as the triangle was instituted, his assists went down. And no, this was before Pippen established himself, before you say that Pippen detracted from his numbers.


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Sorry Dragon. It is hogwash. You know that Jim Clemons long time assistant coach to Phil Jax once coached the Mavs in late 90's. He instituted the triangle there and while they had one of the lousiest records in league history Kidd still averaged a little over 9 assists a game in it. Kobe and Jordan shoot...ALOT.... therefore using the arguement that they don't get a lot of assists in it is laughable. If they shot less they would get more assists..especially Kobe with all the talent he has around him. You do know that the Lakers are usually more successful when he isn't putting up a bunch of shots and getting 30+ points.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Sorry Dragon. It is hogwash. You know that Jim Clemons long time assistant coach to Phil Jax once coached the Mavs in late 90's. He instituted the triangle there and while they had one of the lousiest records in league history Kidd still averaged a little over 9 assists a game in it. Kobe and Jordan shoot...ALOT.... therefore using the arguement that they don't get a lot of assists in it is laughable. If they shot less they would get more assists..especially Kobe with all the talent he has around him. You do know that the Lakers are usually more successful when he isn't putting up a bunch of shots and getting 30+ points.

That was like a months worth of research eh? LOL

[NINJAK2]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

That was like a months worth of research eh? LOL

Yes King B Mack me and my crack team of number crunchers and data analysts conducted tireless hours of research to come to the conclusion that Kobe and MJ are chuckers(Who are still exceptional ball players)

[st0rmb11]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

MJ was a chucker? ever had a look at his field goal percentages? you can't lump him in with Kobe in that category. Jordan's career field goal % is higher than Kobe has ever had in any year of his career.

[LingeringRegime]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

MJ was a chucker? ever had a look at his field goal percentages? you can't lump him in with Kobe in that category. Jordan's career field goal % is higher than Kobe has ever had in any year of his career.

It's useless man.

[ParisB]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Sorry Dragon. It is hogwash. You know that Jim Clemons long time assistant coach to Phil Jax once coached the Mavs in late 90's. He instituted the triangle there and while they had one of the lousiest records in league history Kidd still averaged a little over 9 assists a game in it. Kobe and Jordan shoot...ALOT.... therefore using the arguement that they don't get a lot of assists in it is laughable. If they shot less they would get more assists..especially Kobe with all the talent he has around him. You do know that the Lakers are usually more successful when he isn't putting up a bunch of shots and getting 30+ points.

lol

i can tell basketball isn't your strong suit

[NINJAK2]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

lol

i can tell basketball isn't your strong suit

I can tell that respecting others opinions isn't one of yours. I watch plenty Paris. I've seen many games over the course of my life. I really get tired of people going to the you don't watch/know____________ just because something is said that is not agreed with. Just my opinion bro.

To others, my use of the word chucker is used in the sense that someone shoots the ball alot- nothing more than that. Shooting % means nothing to me in regards to its definition. I just get tired of people saying that the triangle doesn't promote individuals getting alot of assists when the two most prominent players in it (MJ and Kobe) made their claim to fame by being the most competetive and dominating scorers who made teams pay for an untimely double with a good pass. They were looking to score 1st pass second, not vice versa. Nothing wrong with that but it's the mentality of these players that had more to do with their assist totals than the system imo. Put Kidd, Nash, or Paul in place of Fish or LBJ in place of Artest would these guys all of a sudden not be able to get good assist numbers in that set?

Sorry if I upset anyone as that was not my intent....

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Sorry Dragon. It is hogwash. You know that Jim Clemons long time assistant coach to Phil Jax once coached the Mavs in late 90's. He instituted the triangle there and while they had one of the lousiest records in league history Kidd still averaged a little over 9 assists a game in it. Kobe and Jordan shoot...ALOT.... therefore using the arguement that they don't get a lot of assists in it is laughable. If they shot less they would get more assists..especially Kobe with all the talent he has around him. You do know that the Lakers are usually more successful when he isn't putting up a bunch of shots and getting 30+ points.

Jason Kidd left the Mavs in 1996, to join the Phoenix Suns. Which immediately nullifies your point that he averaged 9 assists a game in the late 90's in Dallas, because he wasn't ON THE MAVS in the late 90's. And the coach was Dick Motta. Jim Cleamons joined the Mavs as coach the same year Kidd was traded to Phoenix. Nice try though...

Jordan once averaged 32 points and 8 assists, when he WASN'T in the triangle. Proving that it's possible to shoot alot, AND assist alot in the right offense( i.e give the ball to Michael and get the f**k out the way). Iverson has averaged 30 and 8 assists, and hell, who shot more than HIM in his glory days? Lebron averaged 30 and 7 in Cleveland, again without a triangle offense. In all 3 cases, the players above were in an offense where they were totally ball-dominant, which allowed them carte blanche to rake up high scoring and assist numbers at once. The triangle offense is predicated on ball/player movement, and not one player dominating the ball to the point where they can rake up incredible assist numbers. Especially if they're high volume scorers as well. I have no hesitation in saying that if Kobe was in a different offense, he'd get more than 4-5 assists a game. More like 6-7.

The Lakers are more successful when Kobe's supporting players are into the game, and when Kobe DOESN'T have to score 30.

A chucker is someone who shoots a ton, at a low percentage, and doesn't know when to stop after missing 15 of 20 shots. Michael Jordan was a career 50% shooter, which at the volume of shots he took is EFFICIENT, not CHUCKING. All the best scorers in the league shoot ALOT for the most part. So your definition of chucker would relate to just about every 20ppg and higher scorer in the NBA.

Considering you called my opinion hogwash, you're in no position to be lecturing anyone else about not respecting opinions.

Sorry Ninja, come back in another month.

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Jason Kidd left the Mavs in 1996, to join the Phoenix Suns. Which immediately nullifies your point that he averaged 9 assists a game in the late 90's in Dallas, because he wasn't ON THE MAVS in the late 90's. And the coach was Dick Motta. Jim Cleamons joined the Mavs as coach the same year Kidd was traded to Phoenix. Nice try though...

Jordan once averaged 32 points and 8 assists, when he WASN'T in the triangle. Proving that it's possible to shoot alot, AND assist alot in the right offense( i.e give the ball to Michael and get the f**k out the way). Iverson has averaged 30 and 8 assists, and hell, who shot more than HIM in his glory days? Lebron averaged 30 and 7 in Cleveland, again without a triangle offense. In all 3 cases, the players above were in an offense where they were totally ball-dominant, which allowed them carte blanche to rake up high scoring and assist numbers at once. The triangle offense is predicated on ball/player movement, and not one player dominating the ball to the point where they can rake up incredible assist numbers. Especially if they're high volume scorers as well. I have no hesitation in saying that if Kobe was in a different offense, he'd get more than 4-5 assists a game. More like 6-7.

The Lakers are more successful when Kobe's supporting players are into the game, and when Kobe DOESN'T have to score 30.

A chucker is someone who shoots a ton, at a low percentage, and doesn't know when to stop after missing 15 of 20 shots. Michael Jordan was a career 50% shooter, which at the volume of shots he took is EFFICIENT, not CHUCKING. All the best scorers in the league shoot ALOT for the most part. So your definition of chucker would relate to just about every 20ppg and higher scorer in the NBA.

Considering you called my opinion hogwash, you're in no position to be lecturing anyone else about not respecting opinions.

Sorry Ninja, come back in another month.

seems like this post seems to imply that if your in the triangle you can't have high assists numbers as a defense for kobe being a one diemsional volume scorer. If you can take 30 shots in the triangle you can avg high assists numbers, the ball has to be in your hands to put up that number of shots in a game.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

seems like this post seems to imply that if your in the triangle you can't have high assists numbers as a defense for kobe being a one diemsional volume scorer. If you can take 30 shots in the triangle you can avg high assists numbers, the ball has to be in your hands to put up that number of shots in a game.

No-one in the triangle offense has ever averaged really high assist numbers. My point isn't in defense of anyone. When someone in the triangle offense one day averages 8-9 assists a game, then my theory is shot. Until then, historical precedence has been set that the triangle offense doesn't allow for any one player to be ball-dominant enough to amass high assist numbers. Note that Jordan was averaging more assists per game when he had total carte blanche in the late 80's, than when the triangle was used once Phil Jackson took over. To my memory, the only player who has broken like even 7 assists a game in the triangle was Pippen. But you're not likely to see any one player be among the league leaders in assists playing in the triangle. That's whether they happen to be a dominant scorer like a Jordan or Kobe, or more of a pass-first player. It's just 'not' that kind of offense. Only when you have a prolific point guard in the triangle like a Chris Paul, or a Deron Williams or a Steve Nash, who are your 10-11 assist guys, can you truly determine whether the triangle allows one to get those kinds of assist numbers.

Also note that Kobe's career high in assists in 6.0 per game in the 2004-05 season. What's notable about that statement is that this was the year Rudy Tomjanovich coached the Lakers, meaning there was no triangle offense being utilized. The reason why Jordan, Iverson, and Lebron were all able to score 30 and dish out 7-8 assists, is precisely because they were being utilized as the primary playmakers AND scorers. In other words, give them the ball and let them create for themselves or for others, depending on what the defense gave them. Hell, just thought of someone else, Dwyane Wade in 2008-09 averaged 30 and 7.5 assists. Again, he was used as both the primary scorer and play-maker. In all cases the players were in offenses that essentially gave them the ball and said 'go, create.' A specially talented scorer and passer, which all of those players I mentioned were/are, can be both a high scorer and amass high assist numbers in that kind of 'carte blanche' offense.

Once the triangle was run on the 90's Bulls, Jordan was in an offense that didn't place him as the primary ball-dominant playmaker, but instead placed him in various positions on the floor where he could be most effective offensively. In other words, he was placed in positions to utilize his abililties as a scorer, not a passer. And after a few seasons, Pippen established himself as a player which also ate into Jordan's assists totals. But you will note that Jordan averaged 8.0 assists the season before the triangle was instituted, in 1988-89, in which he was being used at point guard. The following season, his assist numbers dropped to 6.3, and then 5.5 the season after that. One reason why? The triangle had been fully instituted by that point. That Jordan's assists numbers dropped at that point is not, in my humble opinion, a coincidence.

For one thing, the triangle is actually designed moreso with a dominant center( or post player) in mind, which Tex Winters and Phil Jackson has gone on record. That's part of what made the early 2000 Lakers so dominant, the triangle is more designed to feature a Shaq moreso than a Jordan or a Kobe. Which is also part of why the triangle ultimately worked with the Bulls and the current Lakers, because Jordan( and now Kobe) were/are post threats.

Who takes 30 shots in the triange offense? Neither Shaq, Kobe, or Jordan has ever averaged that many shots. If any one player takes that many shots, it's not only a random occurrence, it's also because they broke the triangle. When you see Kobe going off for 40 points and taking high volumes of shots, it's moreso because Kobe broke the triangle as it may have not been effective that particular night. Or perhaps Kobe had a hot hand, and therefore the team milked his hand without being overly reliant on the triangle. When you have two of the greatest perimeter offensive threats in the history of the game in Jordan and Kobe( and the most physically dominant post presence since Wilt in prime Shaq), that is a luxury not many teams have. And there has not, to my knowledge, been a team that successfully employed the triangle that did not possess at least one dominant offensive threat i.e Jordan, Kobe, Shaq etc.

This is why the triangle isn't used by many teams. You have to have certain personnel to be able to use it effectively as the basis for your offensive gameplan. Not only that, but there's a reason why those role players were so effective on those Bulls teams, or the current Lakers. The triangle is very good at maximizing the abilities of marginally skilled players.