MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

[AlexBrady]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Specific to this discussion, no offense to anyone, but you have to be crazy or blind to watch Kobe and Oscar and not know the outcome of that matchup. There is nothing wrong with saying the sport has changed since then. Kobe has benefitted from Oscar's progress, but Oscar is not a transcendent player. Guard play was just too basic compared to what happens now.

As an aside, I've seen you, AlexBrady, kill Magic for "not having a left hand". How can you look at ORob and not bring that up when comparing him to an offensive genius like Kobe? With the ball in his hands and looking to score, there is literally no weakness in Kobe's one on one game. You can't look at Oscar and say that. Come on.

A man who can do everything but jump high is not a transcendent player? Fundamental brilliance was Oscar's game. He had about 15 pounds on Kobe and was much stronger. This would help him in a one on one duel. Although, his greatness truly shines through in a team setting.
I killed Magic for not having a left hand? True, Kobe excels in every area of the game but he was very stubborn (narcissistic actually) for much of his career.

[RonnieG]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

A man who can do everything but jump high is not a transcendent player? Fundamental brilliance was Oscar's game. He had about 15 pounds on Kobe and was much stronger. This would help him in a one on one duel. Although, his greatness truly shines through in a team setting.
I killed Magic for not having a left hand? True, Kobe excels in every area of the game but he was very stubborn (narcissistic actually) for much of his career.

Sorry but he's right. The game has been played above the rim for 30 or so years now. This ties back to what he's mentioning about the average player being 6'7 and athletic. No one is saying Robertson wouldnt be good (or maybe some are) but its hard to believe that his numbers wouldnt take a hit, especially in rebounds.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

A man who can do everything but jump high is not a transcendent player? Fundamental brilliance was Oscar's game. He had about 15 pounds on Kobe and was much stronger. This would help him in a one on one duel. Although, his greatness truly shines through in a team setting.
I killed Magic for not having a left hand? True, Kobe excels in every area of the game but he was very stubborn (narcissistic actually) for much of his career.

ORob did not have Kobe's length, speed or agility, and I seriously doubt he was stronger than Kobe. Kobe is easily the strongest guard in the game, and has been so for a while. He's the only legit SG that can guard the bigger SF's, he routinely takes rebounds away from much bigger players and he routinely posts up against people who weigh more than he does. I'd like to know what your measuring stick for strength is, because there is no guard in NBA history that I'd list as "much" stronger than Kobe. There are some that have been stronger, but Kobe has proven to be near the cap in terms of physical strength at his position.

And what does Kobe's "narcissism for much of his career" have to do with this discussion? Whatever anyone feels about his attitude, Kobe Bryant is easily the most winningest star player of his generation, so his 'tude shouldn't logically impact who you'd rather have trying to get a ring for you.

And yes, you said that Magic flat out couldn't dribble with his left hand, but ORob is no Skip to My Lou when it comes to patting the rock. That back to the basket mess would not fly today. Not to the same degree of success. Just look at the plays Robertson is making, and anyone with two eyes and a basic knowledge of the sport knows that a head to head comparison is ludicrous. It was a different time. Too different to compare.

[AlexBrady]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

ORob did not have Kobe's length, speed or agility, and I seriously doubt he was stronger than Kobe. Kobe is easily the strongest guard in the game, and has been so for a while. He's the only legit SG that can guard the bigger SF's, he routinely takes rebounds away from much bigger players and he routinely posts up against people who weigh more than he does. I'd like to know what your measuring stick for strength is, because there is no guard in NBA history that I'd list as "much" stronger than Kobe. There are some that have been stronger, but Kobe has proven to be near the cap in terms of physical strength at his position.

And what does Kobe's "narcissism for much of his career" have to do with this discussion? Whatever anyone feels about his attitude, Kobe Bryant is easily the most winningest star player of his generation, so his 'tude shouldn't logically impact who you'd rather have trying to get a ring for you.

And yes, you said that Magic flat out couldn't dribble with his left hand, but ORob is no Skip to My Lou when it comes to patting the rock. That back to the basket mess would not fly today. Not to the same degree of success. Just look at the plays Robertson is making, and anyone with two eyes and a basic knowledge of the sport knows that a head to head comparison is ludicrous. It was a different time. Too different to compare.

The physical force Oscar exerted is greater than the physical force Kobe exerts. Sure, there is a noticeable difference. Agreed, Kobe is quite strong. His narcissism led to his breaking the offense and forcing the action on a fairly regular basis.
You're right, Oscar didn't risk possession of the ball like Skip to My Lou. Different times, but not so different to deny the fact that Oscar was one of the most complete players in history.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

The physical force Oscar exerted is greater than the physical force Kobe exerts

Lost me on this part.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

The physical force Oscar exerted is greater than the physical force Kobe exerts. Sure, there is a noticeable difference. Agreed, Kobe is quite strong. His narcissism led to his breaking the offense and forcing the action on a fairly regular basis.
You're right, Oscar didn't risk possesion of the ball like Skip to My Lou. Different times, but not so different to deny the fact that Oscar was one of the most complete players in history.

Not debating Oscar's greatness. It's the transition from "contextual greatness" to "head to head matchup". You seem to have trouble separating the two. Many of the guys on here see the problem. It's very simple: after a certain point, the league evolved. Not just changed, but got bigger and better, and that was mostly in the 80s. The Magic/Bird era was a big paradigm shift in basketball. With the exception of Wilt, the people who played before that shift cannot be directly compared to the people who played after that shift.

For HIS time, Oscar was bananas. But look at who he was playing against. You put Kobe and Lebron and Wade against those dudes and it would look like effin' Space Jam, Alex. Come on, son.

[TMagic]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Lost me on this part.

LOL...Me too. I was all like "Huh?...Wait...What?"

For HIS time, Oscar was bananas. But look at who he was playing against. You put Kobe and Lebron and Wade against those dudes and it would look like effin' Space Jam, Alex. Come on, son.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

ORob did not have Kobe's length, speed or agility, and I seriously doubt he was stronger than Kobe. Kobe is easily the strongest guard in the game, and has been so for a while. He's the only legit SG that can guard the bigger SF's, he routinely takes rebounds away from much bigger players and he routinely posts up against people who weigh more than he does. I'd like to know what your measuring stick for strength is, because there is no guard in NBA history that I'd list as "much" stronger than Kobe. There are some that have been stronger, but Kobe has proven to be near the cap in terms of physical strength at his position.

And what does Kobe's "narcissism for much of his career" have to do with this discussion? Whatever anyone feels about his attitude, Kobe Bryant is easily the most winningest star player of his generation, so his 'tude shouldn't logically impact who you'd rather have trying to get a ring for you.

And yes, you said that Magic flat out couldn't dribble with his left hand, but ORob is no Skip to My Lou when it comes to patting the rock. That back to the basket mess would not fly today. Not to the same degree of success. Just look at the plays Robertson is making, and anyone with two eyes and a basic knowledge of the sport knows that a head to head comparison is ludicrous. It was a different time. Too different to compare.

Would agree with most of this, except in terms of 'winningest' player, I think Tim Duncan has an argument here. Yes in terms of ring count Kobe has him beat by one and the Spurs days as legit title contenders are gone, but looking at Kobe's championship teams compared to Duncan's, Kobe has had considerably more to work with. Just singularly having the most physically dominant player since Wilt on his side, in an era where the center position is comparatively weak to the golden age of centers(90's), was a huge advantage for the 2000-2002 three-peat. I'm a bit more impressed with Duncan leading the Spurs to 4 rings, as I am Kobe leading the Lakers to 2 rings ( with another 3 coming as a sidekick, albeit a VERY important and crucial one, obviously).

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Ah, the age old era argument. Realistically, you have to separate the NBA into 2 eras. The first 30 or so years, and from the 80's on.I'd call the 80's till today the modern era, as most of the 80's stars would still be great today. Ditto of course for the 90's stars. Players of today like a Kobe or a Lebron, have the players of yesteryear to study and use as a measuring stick, not to mention the latest advances in training and conditioning.

Realistically you can't compare Kobe and Oscar, they're both great in their own eras, you could make the argument that Oscar was more dominant in his time, but it's relative. Kobe is obviously far more advanced a player than Oscar was, but it's an impossible argument to have. 30 years from now, I'm sure everyone today will look equally as archaic at that point as the Jerry Wests and Oscars look today.

[PrettyT11]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe is easily the strongest guard in the game, and has been so for a while. He's the only legit SG that can guard the bigger SF's, he routinely takes rebounds away from much bigger players and he routinely posts up against people who weigh more than he does.

Joe Johnson is just as strong as Kobe. He might even be stronger. Johnson is a mountain of a man and has and will post any SG in the game and most if not all SF's as well. He can also defend any SF in the game and hold his own.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Joe Johnson is just as strong as Kobe. He might even be stronger. Johnson is a mountain of a man and has and will post any SG in the game and most if not all SF's as well. He can also defend any SF in the game and hold his own.

I don't think he's a pure SG. I think he's a G/F

[PrettyT11]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I don't think he's a pure SG. I think he's a G/F

Joe is a guard. He was actually running the point when he first came to the Hawks. He was also the secondary ball handler with the Suns to try and take some pressure off of Nash. He is capable of playing both guard positions and the small forward spot but he is a guard.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Joe is a guard. He was actually running the point when he first came to the Hawks. He was also the secondary ball handler with the Suns to try and take some pressure off of Nash. He is capable of playing both guard positions and the small forward spot but he is a guard.

I'm just sayin the dude said "legit SG" in his post. I don't think he looks as JJ as a "legit" SG since he plays all 3 positions.

[PrettyT11]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I'm just sayin the dude said "legit SG" in his post. I don't think he looks as JJ as a "legit" SG since he plays all 3 positions.

Well if that is the case then how many pure SG are there then?? If we are breaking it down like that then Kobe himself isn't a pure SG cause he has spent time playing the 3 spot for the Lakers the past few years. Then you have the other top SG's in the league like Wade, Roy, Manu, and so on who really are combo guards. Wade himslef spent his rookie year as the PG of the team. So then none of those guys are pure SG's.

I took it when he said legit or pure SG that excluded guys like Iggy, Caron Butler, S. Jackson, and others who really are a natural SF playing the 2 spot for the teams they are on now. But it did include guys like Johnson, Wade, Roy and so on cause SG is thier natural position but they are capable of playing others.

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Not debating Oscar's greatness. It's the transition from "contextual greatness" to "head to head matchup". You seem to have trouble separating the two. Many of the guys on here see the problem. It's very simple: after a certain point, the league evolved. Not just changed, but got bigger and better, and that was mostly in the 80s. The Magic/Bird era was a big paradigm shift in basketball. With the exception of Wilt, the people who played before that shift cannot be directly compared to the people who played after that shift.

For HIS time, Oscar was bananas. But look at who he was playing against. You put Kobe and Lebron and Wade against those dudes and it would look like effin' Space Jam, Alex. Come on, son.

it definitely wouldn't look like space jam, I don't understand this because you play in a certain era you can't be better then this player or that player, Oscar robertson's skill blows kobe's out of the water, kobe is just a volume scorer, Oscar is one of the most complete players of all time, An example of playing in a certain era not mattering is Jabbar played in the 60's 70's and 80's and during the whole time he was still a dominant force