MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe's Skill set is a volume scorer, He's a decent rebounder and average play maker. You can really say kobe is a great scorer anything more than that is a stretch.

You can't compare his rebounding to Oscar's. Once again, it's the old era argument. Kobe's rebounding numbers are in line with other notable shooting guards of the past 20 years, so by that measure I guess they're all 'decent' at best. Oscar's numbers came during a time when there were more possessions per game, thus more opportunity to amass great stats if you were a( at the time) specially talented player. Oscar by the standards of today's guards is average in size, and below average athletically, so suffice to say he wouldn't be averaging double digit rebounds.

Average playmaker? By what measure? He's in a system which is predicated on ball movement and not on one player amassing big assists numbers. To say he's an average playmaker is a stretch, his passing is well above average and is overlooked because of his scoring prowess.

Of course looking at your sig, I see there's not much point debating with you about Kobe Bryant.

[Elxar]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe is definitely in the top 10 guards or maybe in top 5 in shooting guards. But I think he will be always be second to Jordan.Unless D. Wade/Durant/Lebron catches up with him. It may be bias but the rings and mvp awards are much more better basis on how great a player is no matter the criticism one can put.

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

You can't compare his rebounding to Oscar's. Once again, it's the old era argument. Kobe's rebounding numbers are in line with other notable shooting guards of the past 20 years, so by that measure I guess they're all 'decent' at best. Oscar's numbers came during a time when there were more possessions per game, thus more opportunity to amass great stats if you were a( at the time) specially talented player. Oscar by the standards of today's guards is average in size, and below average athletically, so suffice to say he wouldn't be averaging double digit rebounds.

Average playmaker? By what measure? He's in a system which is predicated on ball movement and not on one player amassing big assists numbers. To say he's an average playmaker is a stretch, his passing is well above average and is overlooked because of his scoring prowess.

Of course looking at your sig, I see there's not much point debating with you about Kobe Bryant.

above average passing? due to what? what have you seen to say that kobe is an above average passer? lebron james has a higher career ppg than kobe and everyone knows hes a great passer it's not overlooked by his high ppg.

Also John Stockton wasn't athletic and is one of the best point guards of all time, if you have the skill you don't really need to be athletic, same thing with larry bird, samething with oscar robertson.

[Dice]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Sure, if you put Kobe in his prime in a time machine and transported him back to Oscar's day he would dominate. But, if you took Kobe back in time as an infant and let his game develop with the kind of training and nutrition Oscar had to deal with, their games would be similar. If Kobe (now) played in the 60s it would look like Space Jam. If Kobe was developed in the 60s, the Oscar-Kobe matchup would be even.

Give Oscar today's technology, nutrition, and training, and at the very least he's Brandon Roy. In all likelihood he'd be a lot better than that.

Buckeyes | Cavaliers | Reds | Bengals
Sent from the DROID2.

Excellent post.

Kobe would have probably been more like Elgin Baylor if he developed in the 60's. I feel most players do have 'God-given' athletic ability and even with the primitive training of the 60's, Kobe would have still been considered a high-flyer.

I think if Oscar would have developed his game now, he probably be an advanced version of Tyreke Evens. OR a shorter LeBron James.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

um actually I can say that oscar was a better rebounder than kobe, better play maker and a more efficient scorer than kobe was. the game has evolved but a rebound is still a rebound and an assist is still an assist.

Damn I ain't know you that old man. Thought you would've been in your 20s.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

above average passing? due to what? what have you seen to say that kobe is an above average passer? lebron james has a higher career ppg than kobe and everyone knows hes a great passer it's not overlooked by his high ppg.

Also John Stockton wasn't athletic and is one of the best point guards of all time, if you have the skill you don't really need to be athletic, same thing with larry bird, samething with oscar robertson.

What do you mean 'due to what'? What does that mean? I've seen Kobe's career, that's what I've seen. In my opinion, he has above average passing skills. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree. Your point about Lebron's ppg and high assist numbers doesn't take into account that Cleveland's offense consisted of 'give the ball to Lebron and get the **** out the way'. Lebron had carte blanche to amass eye popping stats. Kobe plays within the confines of the triangle offense, which by its design doesn't allow for one player to amass huge assists numbers. Lebron's ppg being higher than Kobe is irrelevant, Kobe started the first 2 years riding the bench behind Eddie Jones before being inserted into the starting lineup. I know you're not trying to make the argument that Lebron is a more talented scorer.... I'm not sure why you're even bringing Lebron into the argument. I know Lebron's a great passer, I said Kobe has above average passing skills which has nothing to do with Lebron James and his passing ability.

Oscar Robertson is a player from another era, that makes it very hard to gauge him against today's players. From what I've seen of him, the man didn't even have a left hand, but you're trying to convince me he's more skilled than Kobe? We'll agree to disagree, I'm bored of this back and forth.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Excellent post.

Kobe would have probably been more like Elgin Baylor if he developed in the 60's. I feel most players do have 'God-given' athletic ability and even with the primitive training of the 60's, Kobe would have still been considered a high-flyer.

I think if Oscar would have developed his game now, he probably be an advanced version of Tyreke Evens. OR a shorter LeBron James.

Exactly, that's why it's ridiculous to compare players across eras, as I'm trying to tell Kashanova. The only way you can compare them is by saying one was more dominant in their era compared to the other. And even taking that into account, Oscar had a few amazing statistical years but won his lone title as Kareem's sidekick on the Bucks. I would think by now that Kobe has long established that he is more than Shaq's sidekick.

[Dice]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Exactly, that's why it's ridiculous to compare players across eras, as I'm trying to tell Kashanova. The only way you can compare them is by saying one was more dominant in their era compared to the other. And even taking that into account, Oscar had a few amazing statistical years but won his lone title as Kareem's sidekick on the Bucks. I would think by now that Kobe has long established that he is more than Shaq's sidekick.

Well, I would say that during his first three championships he was Shaq's sidekick. BUT these last two, he clearly established himself as 'The Man'

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Well, I would say that during his first three championships he was Shaq's sidekick. BUT these last two, he clearly established himself as 'The Man'

Yeah he was, but after leading the Lakers to the last two, I think it's safe to say he's shed that label. That Shaq-Kobe duo seems so long ago now....

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Sure, if you put Kobe in his prime in a time machine and transported him back to Oscar's day he would dominate. But, if you took Kobe back in time as an infant and let his game develop with the kind of training and nutrition Oscar had to deal with, their games would be similar. If Kobe (now) played in the 60s it would look like Space Jam. If Kobe was developed in the 60s, the Oscar-Kobe matchup would be even.

Give Oscar today's technology, nutrition, and training, and at the very least he's Brandon Roy. In all likelihood he'd be a lot better than that.

Buckeyes | Cavaliers | Reds | Bengals
Sent from the DROID2.

This is just a beautiful post. Nothing but truth spews from this.

[PrettyT11]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I agree 100 percent about it's not really fair to compare players from era's that far apart. There are so many differences in the game itself. Also the amount of visual aid just isn't there for guys from the 60's. Now if we are comparing them from an historical context or how far apart they stood from thier peers during thier time the debate goes to Oscar and it isn't even remotely close.

Kobe has had a no doubt about first ballot Hall of Fame career but if we are being completely honest here you can pick any point of his career and a serious debate could be had if other wing players are better than him at that time. What seperates Kobe from them though in a total career or historical context his the logevity of excellence. There was a time when many considered T-Mac better but T-Mac couldn't do it for as long as Kobe has. Now the talk is about Kobe vs LeBron but again right now Kobe ranks higher on an all time perspective because of the amount of years and the winning.

Now as far as Oscar goes there was no player anywhere near his level as a guard when he was playing. People talk all the time about the inflated numbers and pace of the 60's but the fact is that Oscar was the only guy around doing what he was doing. Alot of people talk about his triple double season but the man had a career average of a triple double through his first five years. That is insane. His all around game was unmatched. He was the first guard to ever average 10 assists a night, is the only guard in history to ever average 10 rebounds a game, and only Wilt and Jordan have more seasons or putting up 30 a night. At the time he retired he ranked number one all time in assists and number two in scoring behind Wilt.

So while we can't really compare them in a head to head player battle because of the changes in the game when can compare them in a historical matter. When you do that Oscar clearly had more of an historical impact on the game and had a much farther seperation from his peers.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe has had a no doubt about first ballot Hall of Fame career but if we are being completely honest here you can pick any point of his career and a serious debate could be had if other wing players are better than him at that time. What seperates Kobe from them though in a total career or historical context his the logevity of excellence. There was a time when many considered T-Mac better but T-Mac couldn't do it for as long as Kobe has. Now the talk is about Kobe vs LeBron but again right now Kobe ranks higher on an all time perspective because of the amount of years and the winning.

Now as far as Oscar goes there was no player anywhere near his level as a guard when he was playing. People talk all the time about the inflated numbers and pace of the 60's but the fact is that Oscar was the only guy around doing what he was doing. Alot of people talk about his triple double season but the man had a career average of a triple double through his first five years. That is insane. His all around game was unmatched. He was the first guard to ever average 10 assists a night, is the only guard in history to ever average 10 rebounds a game, and only Wilt and Jordan have more seasons or putting up 30 a night. At the time he retired he ranked number one all time in assists and number two in scoring behind Wilt.

So while we can't really compare them in a head to head player battle because of the changes in the game when can compare them in a historical matter. When you do that Oscar clearly had more of an historical impact on the game and had a much farther seperation from his peers.

Good post. I'll touch on a few points:

-Tracey Mcgrady was, in his prime, every bit as talented as Kobe. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the game came easier to him than it did for Kobe. The difference was defense, will, and work ethic. If Mcgrady had Kobe's work ethic, no doubt he'd be up there in the all-time greats discussion. The guy was a beast in his hey-day.

- No doubt about it, if you're looking at who was more dominant compared to his peers, no question it's Oscar. But you have to ask, who did Oscar have as his serious competition back then? This was before my time, so my question is serious. Jerry West is one... who else? Oscar was obviously just far and away better than everyone he played against, the same way Wilt was back then. Moving on, looking at Kobe's era, he has played in effectively the perimeter player's era. Thus it's harder for him to truly stand out. From Iverson, Mcgrady, D-Wade, Lebron, now Durant, for the past decade there's been someone playing opposite Kobe for which there was debate as to who was/is better.

[PrettyT11]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Good post. I'll touch on a few points:

-Tracey Mcgrady was, in his prime, every bit as talented as Kobe. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the game came easier to him than it did for Kobe. The difference was defense, will, and work ethic. If Mcgrady had Kobe's work ethic, no doubt he'd be up there in the all-time greats discussion. The guy was a beast in his hey-day.

Man T-Mac in Orlando was such a great site to see. I mean dude really had no weakness in offensive game. I remember Doc Rivers saying back then that you really couldn't guard him all you could do was hope he missed the shot. He just made the game look so easy. It's a damn shame his career couldn't continue on that path.

- No doubt about it, if you're looking at who was more dominant compared to his peers, no question it's Oscar. But you have to ask, who did Oscar have as his serious competition back then? This was before my time, so my question is serious. Jerry West is one... who else? Oscar was obviously just far and away better than everyone he played against, the same way Wilt was back then. Moving on, looking at Kobe's era, he has played in effectively the perimeter player's era. Thus it's harder for him to truly stand out. From Iverson, Mcgrady, D-Wade, Lebron, now Durant, for the past decade there's been someone playing opposite Kobe for which there was debate as to who was/is better.

Kobe has faced stronger comp during his time as far as skill, size, and athletic goes no doubt so he does get some credit for that. There was some HOF players that Oscar played against but he was before his time like Wilt was. Both was clearly on a different level physically and skillfully. What stands out to me though is that yes Oscar was ahead of his time(first big guard) but he completely dominated his peers. I mean his numbers are so far ahead of everybody around him it's insane. His rebounding numbers have never been matched by a guard. His scoring numbers during his run can only be matched by MJ and Wilt and his passing numbers can only be matched by Stockton and Magic but nobody in history has put them all together like Oscar. To me that stands out as pretty outstanding.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Kobe has faced stronger comp during his time as far as skill, size, and athletic goes no doubt so he does get some credit for that. There was some HOF players that Oscar played against but he was before his time like Wilt was. Both was clearly on a different level physically and skillfully. What stands out to me though is that yes Oscar was ahead of his time(first big guard) but he completely dominated his peers. I mean his numbers are so far ahead of everybody around him it's insane. His rebounding numbers have never been matched by a guard. His scoring numbers during his run can only be matched by MJ and Wilt and his passing numbers can only be matched by Stockton and Magic but nobody in history has put them all together like Oscar. To me that stands out as pretty outstanding.

Well part of that 'domination of his peers' is because he was ahead of his time. Even if you brought him forward somehow into the modern era( you'd have to take into account that his game would be different), I don't see him averaging those kinds of rebounding numbers, not against today's players. Kobe has all-time great skill level and a peerless work ethic. Thus his domination, while probably not at the same level as how Oscar dominated HIS era, isn't a product of being ahead of his time.

[NINJAK2]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I totally agree. There has been minimal change in the league since the mid/late 80s, really. You look at the footage and you can see how people's skillsets would translate, and how their physical gifts would allow them to be better players in the modern era with better physical training and film study.

However the 60s/70s are a completely different story. There are only a few athletes with transcendent skillsets. Most of those guys would not see the same looks in today's game, and simply wouldn't be able to keep up. You put Kobe in the 60s/70s and people would think he was from another planet.

I don't think the arguement is as simple as saying putting x player from x decade in x era equals x outcome. Also, I highly doubt that most people have seen enough footage of Oscar to even make an arguement of what he could and could not do in this era. Kobe's game is highly patterned after MJ's imo. Without MJ's influence to pattern his game after in the 60's what would Kobe be like back then? No access to a plethora of opponent footage to break down his opponents quirks, tendencies. Inferior training equipment (compared to 2day's stuff), dealing with the "R" word on a regular basis. These things would certainly have an effect on Kobe's (Wade, LB, etc)development back then imo.

On the flip side you put Oscar in this era with these rules, AAU circuits,well funded training/skill camps sponsored by big shoe companies, media hounding/scrutiny, technolgy, training equipment, etc. who knows how he would have turned out. These things would have shaped the player he would become in this era. I mean no one any disrespect.