How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

[ParisB]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Just out of curiousity, did you know Rondo is actually knocking down jumpers at a higher % than Aaron Brooks?

This isn't related to Rondo's finishing ability, but did you also know that opposing PGs have actually outperformed Aaron Brooks this year? They shoot a higher % from the floor and have a higher PER than Brooks. Meanwhile, Rondo's PER is about 20 while his matchup's PER hovers around 12 and has an effective FG% of about 40%, which is absolutely horrible, and by horrible, I mean like, league-low horrible. Rondo's actually outperformed Derrick Rose and Deron Williams as far as those statistics go, although Chris Paul has wayyy better numbers than any of them.

I didn't say Aaron Brooks is better. I was simply saying that "gets to the lane" is an overrated argument, because every point guard gets to the lane (well, except Fisher).

And reducing the sample sizes to fit your argument is not the best idea. It's like pointing out that Jason Richardson has his best games against LA so that must mean he's better than Kobe.

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

when i say umatched it means on an elite level. my apologies.

[PrettyT11]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Just out of curiousity, did you know Rondo is actually knocking down jumpers at a higher % than Aaron Brooks?

This isn't related to Rondo's finishing ability, but did you also know that opposing PGs have actually outperformed Aaron Brooks this year? They shoot a higher % from the floor and have a higher PER than Brooks. Meanwhile, Rondo's PER is about 20 while his matchup's PER hovers around 12 and has an effective FG% of about 40%, which is absolutely horrible, and by horrible, I mean like, league-low horrible. Rondo's actually outperformed Derrick Rose and Deron Williams as far as those statistics go, although Chris Paul has wayyy better numbers than any of them.

Those numbers is cool and all but let's also not leave out the fact that Brooks has only started 5 games this year and is just now coming back from being out a month with an ankle injury. If we are going to call a guy out lets at least put all the info out on the table.

By no means am I saying Brooks is as good as Rondo or anything like that. Rondo is clearly the better player. I'm just saying if we are throwing things out there lets at least put all the facts on the table.

[ParisB]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Those numbers is cool and all but let's also not leave out the fact that Brooks has only started 5 games this year and is just now coming back from being out a month with an ankle injury. If we are going to call a guy out lets at least put all the info out on the table.

By no means am I saying Brooks is as good as Rondo or anything like that. Rondo is clearly the better player. I'm just saying if we are throwing things out there lets at least put all the facts on the table.

Besides, everyone knows that Brooks is the much better shooter anyway.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Those numbers is cool and all but let's also not leave out the fact that Brooks has only started 5 games this year and is just now coming back from being out a month with an ankle injury. If we are going to call a guy out lets at least put all the info out on the table.

By no means am I saying Brooks is as good as Rondo or anything like that. Rondo is clearly the better player. I'm just saying if we are throwing things out there lets at least put all the facts on the table.

Rondo also has outplayed his matchup (according to PER) by a wider margin than both Deron Williams and Derrick Rose this year. Personally, I'd still say Williams is clearly the better PG, I'm just saying Rondo isn't exactly chopped liver like Paris seems to make him out to be.

[ParisB]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Rondo also has outplayed his matchup (according to PER) by a wider margin than both Deron Williams and Derrick Rose this year. Personally, I'd still say Williams is clearly the better PG, I'm just saying Rondo isn't exactly chopped liver like Paris seems to make him out to be.

No, this is probably where we're misunderstanding each other. I think Rondo is a fine point guard, who has his strengths and major weaknesses. I just don't think he's elite, and I think he's closer to all the other point guards in the NBA than he is to the elite or cream of the crop. People get infatuated with one statistic, especially if it's on a championship team in a major city like Boston.

His skillset is serviceable, but he's not an elite player. Lots of guys thrive in today's NBA because it caters athleticism and speed from the guard positions. You can't discount his total PER but only turn around to use it in select matchups. Like I said, smaller sample sizes, and it's no different than if a Wilson Chandler getting his best PER against the Lakers doesn't mean he's better than Kobe.

Bottom line, he benefits from a distribution shift with the assists. Similarly, Boston is a poor rebounding team overall so Rondo's rebounds get overrated too.

[PrettyT11]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Rondo also has outplayed his matchup (according to PER) by a wider margin than both Deron Williams and Derrick Rose this year. Personally, I'd still say Williams is clearly the better PG, I'm just saying Rondo isn't exactly chopped liver like Paris seems to make him out to be.

I'm not disputing if Rondo is good or how good he is. I'm just saying if you are going to just come down on Brooks like that lets at least put all the info out there instead of just making it look like Brooks is chopped liver cause he is not.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

No, this is probably where we're misunderstanding each other. I think Rondo is a fine point guard, who has his strengths and major weaknesses. I just don't think he's elite, and I think he's closer to all the other point guards in the NBA than he is to the elite or cream of the crop. People get infatuated with one statistic, especially if it's on a championship team in a major city like Boston.

His skillset is serviceable, but he's not an elite player. Lots of guys thrive in today's NBA because it caters athleticism and speed from the guard positions. You can't discount his total PER but only turn around to use it in select matchups. Like I said, smaller sample sizes, and it's no different than if a Wilson Chandler getting his best PER against the Lakers doesn't mean he's better than Kobe.

Bottom line, he benefits from a distribution shift with the assists. Similarly, Boston is a poor rebounding team overall so Rondo's rebounds get overrated too.

I don't really understand what you mean. Rondo has outplayed the guy that he has defended by a wider margin than the other elite PGs statistically speaking. I don't see how that's like saying Richardson is better than Kobe because his best game comes against the Lakers. I'm saying on a night in and night out basis, Rondo has outplayed the guy that he's defending by a wider margin than the other elite PGs (besides CP3 who has dominated all the other PGs).

[ParisB]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

I don't really understand what you mean. Rondo has outplayed the guy that he has defended by a wider margin than the other elite PGs statistically speaking. I don't see how that's like saying Richardson is better than Kobe because his best game comes against the Lakers. I'm saying on a night in and night out basis, Rondo has outplayed the guy that he's defending by a wider margin than the other elite PGs (besides CP3 who has dominated all the other PGs).

Boston is an elite defensive team, they regularly hold their opposition to below their team/player averages night in and night out. As a team, they force a lot of bad shots and can funnel the opposition's best player. It's a team effort.

I can confidently bet that lots of elite players have had bad games against Boston. Doesn't mean they're not better than specific players on Boston.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Boston is an elite defensive team, they regularly hold their opposition to below their team/player averages night in and night out. As a team, they force a lot of bad shots and can funnel the opposition's best player. It's a team effort.

I can confidently bet that lots of elite players have had bad games against Boston. Doesn't mean they're not better than specific players on Boston.

Isn't that kind of, like, I don't know, a strength of Rondo's? The guy is a stellar defender. Saying the other team's PG can't knock down a shot against Rondo but he can against every other PG is because Rondo is a good defender.

The top 10 teams in the NBA as far as opposing FG% goes is the Heat, Bulls, Pacers, Celtics, Mavericks, Lakers, Jazz, Magic, 76ers, and Hornets. Looking at the PGs of those teams, the only PG that even comes close to Rondo's matchup's eFG% is Carlos Arroyo. Everyone else is around 49-50% while Rondo is around 40% and Arroyo 42%.

[ParisB]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Isn't that kind of, like, I don't know, a strength of Rondo's? The guy is a stellar defender. Saying the other team's PG can't knock down a shot against Rondo but he can against every other PG is because Rondo is a good defender.

The top 10 teams in the NBA as far as opposing FG% goes is the Heat, Bulls, Pacers, Celtics, Mavericks, Lakers, Jazz, Magic, 76ers, and Hornets. Looking at the PGs of those teams, the only PG that even comes close to Rondo's matchup's eFG% is Carlos Arroyo. Everyone else is around 49-50% while Rondo is around 40% and Arroyo 42%.

No, that's a sign of team defense and philosophy. Ray Allen and Pierce were never shut down defenders, but with Boston's scheme they are great team defenders that contribute heavily. Rondo plays the passing lanes well and makes a lot of gambles.

Like I said, a lot of players struggle against Boston, Rondo or not. He's not what anchors their defense. It's a team philosophy.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

No, that's a sign of team defense and philosophy. Ray Allen and Pierce were never shut down defenders, but with Boston's scheme they are great team defenders that contribute heavily. Rondo plays the passing lanes well and makes a lot of gambles.

Like I said, a lot of players struggle against Boston, Rondo or not. He's not what anchors their defense. It's a team philosophy.

So is the fact that Rondo's guy shoots almost 10% worse than Ray Allen's is because Boston is a better defense too?

[BATMON]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

So is the fact that Rondo's guy shoots almost 10% worse than Ray Allen's is because Boston is a better defense too?

Boston doesnt play Man to Man exclusively. The create a "wall" which was demonstrated against Lebron last year and Kobe when they won the first title.

They know how to funnel players to strong points of their defense anchored by Garnett. Rondo isnt chasing/ locking down the opposing PG for 40 mins.

Ray Allen isnt shutting guys down. He playing good/adequate one-on-one D and playing within Boston's system.

Rondo is NOT Gary Payton. And its ok. It doesnt diminish his achievements as an All-Defensive Team choice.

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Both times they crapped on Miami they didn't seem to deploy this "wall" you speak

[BATMON]

Re: How do you think the Celtics will be when the Big Three retire?

Both times they crapped on Miami they didn't seem to deploy this "wall" you speak

It didnt work against The Hornets.