The worst pick up players.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Anyway, way too many kids have some really nice handles, so they'll isolate their man, and bust out a bunch of And 1 dribbling ****, but stand in one spot the whole time. They never gain anything from the dribbling. I hate watching it.

I hate this as much as anything. But what makes it even worse is when the guys watching from the stands or sidelines are giving him oohs and ahhs... Is it really that impressive when you never even beat your man??? I mean even if you end up hitting the contested shot, the dribbling still got you know where and did nothing for you but waste energy.. Drives me crazy.

[DukeC]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I wouldn't expect the majority of kids to have the IQ to dribble with a purpose. Especially when no one teaches them any different. Instead it seems to be a bunch of "SMH at these kids dribbling nowhere" instead of actually teaching them and drilling into them how to dribble with a purpose.

Show them tapes of Derrick Rose, Westbrook, or Tony Parker dribbling. Highlight the way they set their man up, then do their move and explode to the basket. 99.9% of coaches aren't doing anything of the sort because most basketball "coaches" (Especially the ones in public schools that aren't known for basketball)" are just teachers moonlighting as coaches. And in most cases all the actual coaches coach football and basketball is left behind anyhow so that also attributes to the fact the kids aren't really learning how to play basketball at a high level.

Especially with the way the AAU circuit works. Highschool basketball is basically a joke exempting of course the prep schools who specialize in getting kids D1,D2, or even D3 scholarships and the few rare public schools (like Simeon). But if you really want to solve the problem then teach them the correct way instead of just shaking your heads, knowing that you know better because you've already been there and done that when they HAVEN'T.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I wouldn't expect the majority of kids to have the IQ to dribble with a purpose. Especially when no one teaches them any different. Instead it seems to be a bunch of "SMH at these kids dribbling nowhere" instead of actually teaching them and drilling into them how to dribble with a purpose.

Show them tapes of Derrick Rose, Westbrook, or Tony Parker dribbling. Highlight the way they set their man up, then do their move and explode to the basket. 99.9% of coaches aren't doing anything of the sort because most basketball "coaches" (Especially the ones in public schools that aren't known for basketball)" are just teachers moonlighting as coaches. And in most cases all the actual coaches coach football and basketball is left behind anyhow so that also attributes to the fact the kids aren't really learning how to play basketball at a high level.

Especially with the way the AAU circuit works. Highschool basketball is basically a joke exempting of course the prep schools who specialize in getting kids D1,D2, or even D3 scholarships and the few rare public schools (like Simeon). But if you really want to solve the problem then teach them the correct way instead of just shaking your heads, knowing that you know better because you've already been there and done that when they HAVEN'T.

As with a lot in this thread, I believe one's region could make a big difference here. For instance, for the most part, I tend to expect experienced players to understand how to dribble with a purpose. I don't find it to be a complicated concept that requires basketball masterminds to convey.

With respect, I think your views on high school basketball coaches are little overly harsh. It sounds like your experiences with high school coaches weren't spectacular and that's a bummer. But perhaps you can take solace in knowing there's still a lot of great high school coaches out there who know how to teach the game the right way (and whom are real teachers as well). And I most certainly don't think the odds are 99:1 in that regard. There's a lot of great coaches out there, even in public schools.

Further, I haven't seen the "all the good coaches coach football instead" phenomenon. That doesn't mean that doesn't happen, but for the most part I've seen basketball minds coach basketball and football minds coach football. Again though, maybe it's a regional thing.

But maybe we're talking two different things here. If "high quality" coaching means working within a prep program where a coach may very well have DI coaching experience in his past or future then yeah, that's obviously going to be tough to come by at the tens of thousands of schools throughout the United States. But for me, ideas like dribbling with a purpose do not require basketball genius. In fact, of the basketball programs of which I've been a part, that's been a pretty basic and fundamental concept.

Moreover, I'm not sure showcasing Derrick Rose highlights is always the easiest or most effective way to convey fundamental elements. Most coaches are working with an hour or two of practice time per day. To focus on isolation/pick & roll NBA-level performances is not always at the top of most coach's lists. Derrick Rose does some wonderfully fundamental things on the basketball court, but the NBA game is night and day different from most of the high school game. I don't hesitate to use NBA references off hand ("go home tonight and when you watch that Bulls game, pay attention to the little things Rose pulls off, not just the crosses & dunks") but to consciously spend precious practice time breaking down NBA superstars isn't something I find to be a most effective use of limited practice time. That 99.9% of high school coaches don't do that, is probably a good thing.

Now, in regards to AAU, I think I'm largely with you there. That's a completely different beast from standard public high school play. It's the wild west out there. In those situations, I admit you never know what you're going to get. My little brother is one of the lucky ones, having been coached in the AAU circuit by a fundamentals-driven former varsity coach who'd experienced much success in his career (and stepped down only to become an AD and coach his sons firsthand). I believe those types of coaches in AAU are a rarity.

To cut to the core of the topic (crazy overdribbling), in a lot of cases I've seen, it wasn't even about a kid not knowing better. It was about a kid just opting for what he wanted to do. A lot of the overdribblers I've known just enjoy doing their little crazy tricks out there. They've been told it's not the most effective use of energy and ability, but they're living for that one moment where it all comes together and leads to a broken ankle. To them, that's more fun in a pickup environment than jabbing once and driving straight to the rim for a routine layup. Unfortunately, it's the rest of us that must deal with the effects of such a mindset.

[cavsfan2]

Re: The worst pick up players.

About the over dribbling thing, it's one of the reasons that Gatorade commercial annoys me so much. I'm talking about the one where the guy goes "you want one more?" when he literally didn't do anything except a weak *** shamgod move.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

About the over dribbling thing, it's one of the reasons that Gatorade commercial annoys me so much. I'm talking about the one where the guy goes "you want one more?" when he literally didn't do anything except a weak *** shamgod move.

I do wish I could pull off a decent shamgod.. I feel like when I try it's so awkward lol

[KG]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I know it's probably an ***-hole thing to say, but I hate playing with guys that suck. I just don't get playing if you're not good at it. Not even if you enjoy it.

I suck at anything frisbee related, so you know what I do when my buddies want to get together for a game or when they break a frisbee out while we're hanging out? I don't join in. No sense in their fun being ruined by me making horrible throws, and them having to go track down the frisbee.

Also, I've been playing a lot of pick up ball at a local high school with a buddy who coaches (keep in mind, we're both 24, but we both coach, so he asks me to come out and help some kids with shooting).

Anyway, way too many kids have some really nice handles, so they'll isolate their man, and bust out a bunch of And 1 dribbling ****, but stand in one spot the whole time. They never gain anything from the dribbling. I hate watching it.

That's harsh Storm, but it sounds like an age thing. As I get older I see myself and other friends' games deteriorate due to getting older, not having as much time to hoop because of other commitments, etc... I always feel like people should know their roles when it comes to hoops. If you're playing with guys who are more skilled than focus on the other things like defense, rebounding, hustling.

[702]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I've noticed we have a few guys on this board who coach. I was wondering if I could get any insight on how to possibly get involved in it.

I have an issue though. I've never played serious organized ball. I played rec leagues on and off until high school. But I never played high school ball past intramurals due to grades. I'd obviously be far from just jumping into anything. Simple things like what drills to run in practice, or even just how to structure one I really have no idea on.

I love basketball, and I feel as I'm getting older (just 23 though) I'm gaining a much better understanding of it. I love the idea of working with kids and helping them develop both on and off the court. Basketball was more than a game to me growing up and I'd really like to pass that on. Ideally I'd coach a high school team one day.

Any advice would be very appreciated.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

That's harsh Storm, but it sounds like an age thing. As I get older I see myself and other friends' games deteriorate due to getting older, not having as much time to hoop because of other commitments, etc... I always feel like people should know their roles when it comes to hoops. If you're playing with guys who are more skilled than focus on the other things like defense, rebounding, hustling.

I can see both sides in this case. I've definitely been frustrated a countless number of times when playing with truly terrible players. Even when they're honest, hardworking folk, if they're extremely terrible (especially if they're on my team), it can be rough. Of course, when the terrible players believe they're god's gift to basketball out there, that only compounds the issue.

On the flip side, I've always had a soft side for terrible basketball players, particularly those who are trying to get better. Why? Because even if we consider ourselves "good" for our area, we were once in the bad player's shoes. It's a necessary process in many cases and I'm okay with it more times than not. If you're inexperienced, we'll try to provide experience.

There's a ton of sports and activities I'm awful at but I still enjoy. I'd hate to think I should be expected to exempt myself from those fun times with friends just because I'm terrible. The only real way to improve is to do. A guy can shoot around and perform drills all he wants, but he's going to hit a ceiling that only playing real games can propel him through.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I've noticed we have a few guys on this board who coach. I was wondering if I could get any insight on how to possibly get involved in it.

I have an issue though. I've never played serious organized ball. I played rec leagues on and off until high school. But I never played high school ball past intramurals due to grades. I'd obviously be far from just jumping into anything. Simple things like what drills to run in practice, or even just how to structure one I really have no idea on.

I love basketball, and I feel as I'm getting older (just 23 though) I'm gaining a much better understanding of it. I love the idea of working with kids and helping them develop on the court and working with them off the court. Basketball was more than a game to me growing up and I'd really like to pass that on. Ideally I'd coach a high school team one day.

Any advice would be very appreciated.

I think looking for an assistant coaching job would be ideal at this point. My first coaching job was actually assisting a junior varsity girls team being headed by a friend of mine. She did a great job of showing me the ropes.

That said, it's tough for me to say where to go for that assisting job and how long it'd take for you to develop the essentials. It's not exactly rocket science, but I'd have to believe those who've been through school basketball programs may have a little bit of a head start in that regard.

If you have any loose connections to basketball programs, you may want to investigate a bit. There's a lot of non-Varsity teams that go assistant-less throughout the year just because they can't really find anyone to fill those roles. Whether you know people coaching JV, Freshmen, middle school, or an elementary hoopsters program, an assistant can always be a big help. I've had some folks who I've only barely known serve as my assistants and it usually works out pretty well.

[KG]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I can see both sides in this case. I've definitely been frustrated a countless number of times when playing with truly terrible players. Even when they're honest, hardworking folk, if they're extremely terrible (especially if they're on my team), it can be rough. Of course, when the terrible players believe they're god's gift to basketball out there, that only compounds the issue.

On the flip side, I've always had a soft side for terrible basketball players, particularly those who are trying to get better. Why? Because even if we consider ourselves "good" for our area, we were once in the bad player's shoes. It's a necessary process in many cases and I'm okay with it more times than not. If you're inexperienced, we'll try to provide experience.

There's a ton of sports and activities I'm awful at but I still enjoy. I'd hate to think I should be expected to exempt myself from those fun times with friends just because I'm terrible. The only real way to improve is to do. A guy can shoot around and perform drills all he wants, but he's going to hit a ceiling that only playing real games can propel him through.

You said it perfectly, "we were once in the bad player's shoes"

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I think looking for an assistant coaching job would be ideal at this point. My first coaching job was actually assisting a junior varsity girls team being headed by a friend of mine. She did a great job of showing me the ropes.

That said, it's tough for me to say where to go for that assisting job and how long it'd take for you to develop the essentials. It's not exactly rocket science, but I'd have to believe those who've been through school basketball programs may have a little bit of a head start in that regard.

If you have any loose connections to basketball programs, you may want to investigate a bit. There's a lot of non-Varsity teams that go assistant-less throughout the year just because they can't really find anyone to fill those roles. Whether you know people coaching JV, Freshmen, middle school, or an elementary hoopsters program, an assistant can always be a big help. I've had some folks who I've only barely known serve as my assistants and it usually works out pretty well.

Don't you need a degree to coach at a school?

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Don't you need a degree to coach at a school?

Hmm, in Michigan I have never heard of such a pre-requisite. I do know the state has been pushing for prospective coaches to take a specific coaching class but even then, I'm not completely sure if it's required or not.

I suppose individual schools could have their own individual requirements, and one of them may be a degree, but I have not personally come across that. I think schools are required to post coaching vacancies internally first (within their school) so if a teacher takes the job, I'm supposing he'll have a degree but otherwise, I'm not entirely sure it'd make sense to require a random degree in order to coach basketball.

[DukeC]

Re: The worst pick up players.

As with a lot in this thread, I believe one's region could make a big difference here. For instance, for the most part, I tend to expect experienced players to understand how to dribble with a purpose. I don't find it to be a complicated concept that requires basketball masterminds to convey.

With respect, I think your views on high school basketball coaches are little overly harsh. It sounds like your experiences with high school coaches weren't spectacular and that's a bummer. But perhaps you can take solace in knowing there's still a lot of great high school coaches out there who know how to teach the game the right way (and whom are real teachers as well). And I most certainly don't think the odds are 99:1 in that regard. There's a lot of great coaches out there, even in public schools.

Further, I haven't seen the "all the good coaches coach football instead" phenomenon. That doesn't mean that doesn't happen, but for the most part I've seen basketball minds coach basketball and football minds coach football. Again though, maybe it's a regional thing.

But maybe we're talking two different things here. If "high quality" coaching means working within a prep program where a coach may very well have DI coaching experience in his past or future then yeah, that's obviously going to be tough to come by at the tens of thousands of schools throughout the United States. But for me, ideas like dribbling with a purpose do not require basketball genius. In fact, of the basketball programs of which I've been a part, that's been a pretty basic and fundamental concept.

Moreover, I'm not sure showcasing Derrick Rose highlights is always the easiest or most effective way to convey fundamental elements. Most coaches are working with an hour or two of practice time per day. To focus on isolation/pick & roll NBA-level performances is not always at the top of most coach's lists. Derrick Rose does some wonderfully fundamental things on the basketball court, but the NBA game is night and day different from most of the high school game. I don't hesitate to use NBA references off hand ("go home tonight and when you watch that Bulls game, pay attention to the little things Rose pulls off, not just the crosses & dunks") but to consciously spend precious practice time breaking down NBA superstars isn't something I find to be a most effective use of limited practice time. That 99.9% of high school coaches don't do that, is probably a good thing.

Now, in regards to AAU, I think I'm largely with you there. That's a completely different beast from standard public high school play. It's the wild west out there. In those situations, I admit you never know what you're going to get. My little brother is one of the lucky ones, having been coached in the AAU circuit by a fundamentals-driven former varsity coach who'd experienced much success in his career (and stepped down only to become an AD and coach his sons firsthand). I believe those types of coaches in AAU are a rarity.

To cut to the core of the topic (crazy overdribbling), in a lot of cases I've seen, it wasn't even about a kid not knowing better. It was about a kid just opting for what he wanted to do. A lot of the overdribblers I've known just enjoy doing their little crazy tricks out there. They've been told it's not the most effective use of energy and ability, but they're living for that one moment where it all comes together and leads to a broken ankle. To them, that's more fun in a pickup environment than jabbing once and driving straight to the rim for a routine layup. Unfortunately, it's the rest of us that must deal with the effects of such a mindset.

Down south all we care about is football and baseball. That's it. So no, my experiences with coaches were not pleasant, considering they didn't know how to actually coach basketball in the slightest (and was reflected in our getting consistently less than 7 wins a season for the 3 years I was there). Not only that, but like a lot of teams down south, 70-80% of the basketball team was comprised of football team members....

What's funny in hindsight is that our girl's basketball team was really successful. They ended up going 28-9 one year, but could never duplicate it again because their best player kept getting injured (who was by far and away the best girl's player in the district).

I can agree partly about the guys who just live for that moment when they finally break someone's ankles. Sometimes though they truly don't know any better (referring to kids in highschool). If you're out of highschool and you're still doing it then yeah, I can see why someone could get mad because they should know better at this point.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Down south all we care about is football and baseball. That's it. So no, my experiences with coaches were not pleasant, considering they didn't know how to actually coach basketball in the slightest (and was reflected in our getting consistently less than 7 wins a season for the 3 years I was there). Not only that, but like a lot of teams down south, 70-80% of the basketball team was comprised of football team members....

What's funny in hindsight is that our girl's basketball team was really successful. They ended up going 28-9 one year, but could never duplicate it again because their best player kept getting injured (who was by far and away the best girl's player in the district).

Yeah, that kind of stuff can vary from school to school. I'm not doubting terrible school coaches exist, I just did not believe it was as sweeping as you seemed to have suggested initially.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Hmm, in Michigan I have never heard of such a pre-requisite. I do know the state has been pushing for prospective coaches to take a specific coaching class but even then, I'm not completely sure if it's required or not.

I suppose individual schools could have their own individual requirements, and one of them may be a degree, but I have not personally come across that. I think schools are required to post coaching vacancies internally first (within their school) so if a teacher takes the job, I'm supposing he'll have a degree but otherwise, I'm not entirely sure it'd make sense to require a random degree in order to coach basketball.

I'm pretty sure every school around here requires you I have some type of educational degree and then get a coaching endorsement as well.. Many of my friends are just going to school for PE degrees, to become gym teachers and coaches. Some go for a degree in history or math and then get the coaching endorsement... Their are coaching classes here for basketball, baseball, football, racquet sports, etc...

But still even with just getting a gym teachers degree it's 4 full years of college, plus passing all your praxis tests and getting your coaching endorsement, and doing an internship your last semester.

This is what my roommates degree plan would look like for someone starting new.
35 hours - general education classes
Major requirements - 50-53 hours
Major requirements include physiology of activity, kinesiology, Anatomy of motion, personal health, first aid and safety, strategies for teaching health, concepts of fitness, PE for young children, swimming, gymnastics, track and field, teaching rhymicsl activities, teaching fitness concepts, teaching racquet sports, teaching leisure sports, teaching team sports, motor skills for children, and 4 PE courses..

After those it's 29 hours of professional education requirements.. These are
Educational psychology, secondary teaching, performance based instructional design, methods for teaching PE, educational measurement, and a full semester internship teaching at the school..

That's all just for the PE teaching degree. To add the coaching endorsement, you would have chosen the team sport class from the above list of what you wanted to coach, in this case basketball. And physiology of activity, techniques of strength training, concepts of athletic training, rules and officiating, legal issues in sports, organizational physical education.. This is all required to coach football, basketball, or track in the state of Arkansas..

So it ends up being like a total of 120 hours for the teaching degree and 21 hours for the endorsement.. Granted it probably varies some depending on what type of teacher you want to be but most of the people I know who want to coach chose PE simply because the classes are really easy to pass, and you get to hang around the gym all day long for the majority of them.

I'm pretty positive that's the only way you can get a coaching job at a high school here in Arkansas.