Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

[DC35]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Both are prolific scorers and are about equal rebounders (Melo uses his strength and boxing out while KD uses his length and athleticism) Carmelo has a wider arsenal of offensive moves but KD seems more efficient, works harder on D, and is younger...plus since most of the statistics favor KD i don't see the logic in picking Melo.

[mKoz26]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Bumi, since you seem to be the OS-stats-guy, can you tell me if the shooting percentages at the rim include fastbreaks?

[jeebs9]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I would hate to see Bumi on the 2kinsider blog. He must kill him with stats haha jk

I'm going with Melo more because he is older. Been in the league longer. Playing pretty much in his prime right now. I don't see him improving much (besides on the defensive end). Durant's box could be a lot more filler. But right now he basically "T-Mac beta 2.0". I can't wait to see him averaging like 1.5-2 blocks a game. Just a lot more active on the defensive end.

[slimm44]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Bumi, since you seem to be the OS-stats-guy, can you tell me if the shooting percentages at the rim include fastbreaks?

Not to hijack his question, but yes, they do. Hoopdata counts all shots from all locations, regardless of situation.

Also, I see what you guys are saying about TS% and Bird vs. Nash. Two things first...

1. I'm not making an argument for stats.
2. I'm not saying that Nash is a better shooter than Bird.

That being said, if you're going to look at basic stats or advanced metrics, you have to be willing to look at more stats together than just picking one at random to try to prove your point. For example, try looking at TS%, EFG%, 3pt%, 2pt%, %'s from different locations ie at the rim, close-mid range, deep-mid range, and 3pt land, ISO%, % of using screens, % of assisted baskets, etc.

When you pick one stat, regardless of what it is, and try to use it simply to prove the point that you don't agree 100% with stats, it comes off as being petty and immature. You guys are better than that and most of your discussion proves that.

[Drewski]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

That being said, if you're going to look at basic stats or advanced metrics, you have to be willing to look at more stats together than just picking one at random to try to prove your point. For example, try looking at TS%, EFG%, 3pt%, 2pt%, %'s from different locations ie at the rim, close-mid range, deep-mid range, and 3pt land, ISO%, % of using screens, % of assisted baskets, etc.

When you pick one stat, regardless of what it is, and try to use it simply to prove the point that you don't agree 100% with stats, it comes off as being petty and immature. You guys are better than that and most of your discussion proves that.

This here is very true. Stats are still very useful if not taken to an extreme, just as the eye is best used not to an extreme. Lots of gray to be considered in basketball.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Not to hijack his question, but yes, they do. Hoopdata counts all shots from all locations, regardless of situation.

Also, I see what you guys are saying about TS% and Bird vs. Nash. Two things first...

1. I'm not making an argument for stats.
2. I'm not saying that Nash is a better shooter than Bird.

That being said, if you're going to look at basic stats or advanced metrics, you have to be willing to look at more stats together than just picking one at random to try to prove your point. For example, try looking at TS%, EFG%, 3pt%, 2pt%, %'s from different locations ie at the rim, close-mid range, deep-mid range, and 3pt land, ISO%, % of using screens, % of assisted baskets, etc.

When you pick one stat, regardless of what it is, and try to use it simply to prove the point that you don't agree 100% with stats, it comes off as being petty and immature. You guys are better than that and most of your discussion proves that.

Well Nash destroys Bird in both TS% and eFG%. Nash's career average for eFG is .01% under Bird's best eFG% that he had in any season. Bird only posted a TS% above Nash's career TS% twice in his career. I don't have numbers for different shot locations and stuff though; I don't think they kept those stats back then, or atleast not on hoopdata.com. Nash also beats Bird in 3PT% by a wide margin (if I'm not mistaken, Bird never had a single season where he shot a higher percentage than Nash's career average). I would imagine his 2 point shooting is probably better though based on the fact that he shot like 52-53% from the field.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

If you judge players by TS% to say who is a better shooter than whom, then you're saying Kevin Durant is a better shooter than Larry Bird, and that Steve Nash is a better shooter than Bird and Ray Allen (and Dirk and Durant too).

I'm curious as to whether Bumi really thinks Durant is a better shooter than Larry Bird.

Bird has a higher career TS%, eFG%, FG%, 3pt%, and identical FT% to Durant. Advanced metrics tell me the same things my eyes do. That Bird was a superior shooter to Durant.

Also, Nash is an excellent shooter. One of the best to play the game. Not sure how that's a slight to anyone.

No, your number's are misleading you, Durant isn't a better rebounder than Melo, you can argue it all you want, doesn't change what actually happens on the court.

No, I'm quite sure they aren't. They merely reaffirm what I already know. That Durant is a better basketball player than Melo.

You, on the other hand. Seem to be relying on what you wish to see. Not what's actually occurring.

Which is why what the eye sees and interprets >>>>> "Advanced" metrics.

You could sit and here and analyze all the numbers and statistics all year long. It doesn't tell the whole story. Basing your incredibly narrow opinion off statistics alone, you're going to have a pretty skewed perception of reality.

I'm with ehh and Yeah on this all the way.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I don't trust your knowledge of basketball and its nuances. I don't know you. I don't know Yeah, Ehh, Demi, or anyone else who frequents these boards. I don't know what it is you value, nor what it is you don't. I'm unaware of whether or not you watch NBA games, or how often. I don't know if you've coached, and if you have, at what level. I'm not sure if you've played, or if you were any good if and when you did. I don't trust your eyes. They're biased, discriminatory, prejudice, and possibly inequitable. Just as mine are. So when what your eyes tells you conflicts with what my eyes tell me, I'm going to fall back on a universally comprehensive language whose measure is supremely objective.

If you think Melo is a better basketball player than Durant. That's fine. That's your prerogative. Believe what you will. But based on production and statistical analysis, Durant is quite clearly the better player. There's a reason Durant has matched Melo's post season success in half the time. There's a reason Durant has made the All NBA 1st team 2x more than Melo has, and one more time than Melo has made the All NBA 2nd team. There's a reason, that at 22, Durant has already bested Melo's best regular and post seasons. Etc.

I'm not sure what your eyes are telling you, nor why. But metrics and statistical analysis reaffirm what I already know.

[1Rose]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Until this point I never argued one way or the other, so no offense is taken.

Basketball is a beautiful game isn't. That we can even have such a discussion where we talk about things that don't show up in the stat book. I don't doubt your stats, and believe that they all are correct and that if you look at them, you could say that Durant is a better player. That's completely ok, never had a problem with that.

Your judge of ability and worth on the basketball court apparently is different. I go back to when you said that you don't think Rose deserved the MVP in another thread, that we respectively disagreed. There is no right or wrong answer, it's all opinion and based off what you think value and the definition of being "better" is.

I just feel that only using stats to reaffirm your opinion is a little one dimensional and unrealistic. I'm sure that are a lot of players that are more "efficient" then both Melo and Durant, but watching both of them, I know who I want.

I would go on a limb and say Durant's efficiency is a product of the team he has had around him since he's been in the league. Also could be a matter of opinion, but that's just how I feel.

Personally, I think Melo right now is the better player. I don't need to look at stats to determine that. Melo is a better low post scorer, has more post moves, better at creating his shot, stronger and a better passer. All things I don't need to look at stats for.

Although, do I feel that Durant has the potential to be better than Melo? Absolutely and I think he will at some point.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Bird has a higher career TS%, eFG%, FG%, 3pt%, and identical FT% to Durant. Advanced metrics tell me the same things my eyes do. That Bird was a superior shooter to Durant.

Also, Nash is an excellent shooter. One of the best to play the game. Not sure how that's a slight to anyone.

Durant's TS%: .576
Bird's TS%: .564

I think 76 > 64. And Nash's TS%, eFG%, and 3PT% all demolish Bird and Durant.

TS%:
Bird: .564
Durant: .576
Nash: .604

eFG:
Bird: .514
Durant: .498
Nash: .555

3PT:
Bird: .376
Durant: .358
Nash: .429

Do you really think Nash is that much better of a shooter than Larry Legend? And do you think Kevin Durant is in the same league as Larry Bird?

Edit: So, who is better at finishing at the rim? Steve Nash or LeBron James? Beno Udrih or LeBron James? According to efficiency stats, Nash and Udrih both finish at the rim better than LeBron James and better than pretty much any guard or wingman in the NBA not named Kevin Durant.

[phenom1990]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

This is a difficult question for me. If it is over the course of a season, I take Durant because of the way he carries himself and the effect I think that has on the lockerroom. If it is one game, I probably take Melo and if it is one shot, I absolutely take Melo ( I would take Melo over anybody in the league in this category). When I watch Durant in these type of situations, I get the feeling he isn't sure what he wants to do. When I watch Melo, I get the feeling he already knows what he wants to do and he goes out and does it.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Durant's TS%: .576
Bird's TS%: .564

I think 76 > 64. And Nash's TS%, eFG%, and 3PT% all demolish Bird and Durant.

TS%:
Bird: .564
Durant: .576
Nash: .604

eFG:
Bird: .514
Durant: .498
Nash: .555

3PT:
Bird: .376
Durant: .358
Nash: .429

Do you really think Nash is that much better of a shooter than Larry Legend? And do you think Kevin Durant is in the same league as Larry Bird?

Edit: So, who is better at finishing at the rim? Steve Nash or LeBron James? Beno Udrih or LeBron James? According to efficiency stats, Nash and Udrih both finish at the rim better than LeBron James and better than pretty much any guard or wingman in the NBA not named Kevin Durant.

I think you're looking for the Metrics vs. the Eye Test thread. This is the Durant vs. Melo thread.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

This is a difficult question for me. If it is over the course of a season, I take Durant because of the way he carries himself and the effect I think that has on the lockerroom. If it is one game, I probably take Melo and if it is one shot, I absolutely take Melo ( I would take Melo over anybody in the league in this category). When I watch Durant in these type of situations, I get the feeling he isn't sure what he wants to do. When I watch Melo, I get the feeling he already knows what he wants to do and he goes out and does it.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm supposed to trust this over what actually happens?(speaking specifically about Durant in clutch situations)

[phenom1990]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

This is what I'm talking about. I'm supposed to trust this over what actually happens?(speaking specifically about Durant in clutch situations)

I'm confused by what your asking. If your asking for stats to back up my Melo assertion with one game on the line, over the years on 82games.com has showed that Melo % is significantly higher for game winning shots is higher than anyone else. One shot with the game on the line, give me Melo over anybody.

[Drewski]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Durant's TS%: .576
Bird's TS%: .564

I think 76 > 64. And Nash's TS%, eFG%, and 3PT% all demolish Bird and Durant.

TS%:
Bird: .564
Durant: .576
Nash: .604

eFG:
Bird: .514
Durant: .498
Nash: .555

3PT:
Bird: .376
Durant: .358
Nash: .429

Do you really think Nash is that much better of a shooter than Larry Legend? And do you think Kevin Durant is in the same league as Larry Bird?

Shooting % is shooting %, now I don't even want to go into this kind of debate, but you can't tell me that shooting % isn't a stat we should be considering. If anything, shooting % is one of the better things to statistically keep in consideration. Especially over careers. Durants career is still very short, but Nash is a pretty full career, and Bird is obviously Bird. Not going to get into who's a better shooter between Nash and Bird, but statistically, while playing in the NBA, Nash is statistically a better shooter. And I don't see why that's too crazy to consider - Nash is a very gifted NBA player. There is NO argument there. Now who would hit the most 3s during a 3 point contest, or who would hit the most jumpers in a pick up game, that's not to be seen in these statistics.

Edit: So, who is better at finishing at the rim? Steve Nash or LeBron James? Beno Udrih or LeBron James? According to efficiency stats, Nash and Udrih both finish at the rim better than LeBron James and better than pretty much any guard or wingman in the NBA not named Kevin Durant.

I don't think anyone was vying to compare Udrih to James, but you made your point, albeit it's one I don't think anyone here intended to argue in regards to. I don't think anyone is that tunnelled in, and if anyone were, then obviously they more likely than not shouldn't be speaking on the NBA. But hey, for statistics sake, you could definitely say that Udrih is AS EFFICIENT when he gets shots in the restricted area, and slightly more EFFICIENT in the painted area. And then, you can consider FGA in those areas, so on and so forth, to continue building a picture from the statistics.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I just feel that only using stats to reaffirm your opinion is a little one dimensional and unrealistic.

What's an opinion if it isn't supported by something of substance? How can one argue, credibly, with nothing to support their claims?

I'm sure that are a lot of players that are more "efficient" then both Melo and Durant, but watching both of them, I know who I want.

Durant finished 6th in efficiency this season, and 2nd last season. Not sure about Melo.

I would go on a limb and say Durant's efficiency is a product of the team he has had around him since he's been in the league. Also could be a matter of opinion, but that's just how I feel.

Durant has been one of the more efficient players in the NBA since his sophomore season. When he played on a lottery team.

Personally, I think Melo right now is the better player. I don't need to look at stats to determine that. Melo is a better low post scorer, has more post moves, better at creating his shot, stronger and a better passer. All things I don't need to look at stats for.

And that's fine. I just feel as if it's kin to arguing 2 + 2 is 3, despite evidence to the contrary. Maybe not to that extreme, but it's similarly frustrating.