Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

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  • Bumi
    Banned
    • Sep 2010
    • 967

    #136
    Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

    Originally posted by TMagic
    I'm not comparing their careers. Not comparing accolades. You totally missed my point.
    Then what exactly was your point?

    I don't see how one can watch Durant play and not see that he isn't the most talented finisher. That's where statistics are clouding your judgement.
    I don't see how one can watch Durant play, and not see that he doesn't typically miss shots around the rim. Be they layups or dunks. Perhaps you don't watch enough OKC games. I don't know. But your assessment is way off.

    That is simply ridiculous and another example of how stats are not the end all you have been proclaiming them to be.
    I agree. Typically, perimeter players don't put down nearly as many dunks as that. Especially consistently. As this wasn't the first season Durant eclipsed the "100 dunk mark".

    If Durant gets one fast break dunk every game and every other game gets two (which is the realm of possibility), he gets 125 dunks
    Durant is the only superstar in the league whose a beneficiary of fast break points. Imagine that.

    Dunks are typically easy baskets. Plain and simple. The majority of dunks for wings come off of fast breaks and cuts to the rim. Dunks that are created off a players own dribble and own ball handling are atypical. They don't happen often.

    By bringing this up, you are just reaffirming that the reason Durant's shot percentage is so high and his attempts are low is because he's not good at attacking the rim. He averages 1.6 dunks per game, leaving him with one shot per game that he gets at the rim aside from an easy dunk.

    So when you factor that in (made dunks aside), that's 18 shots per game for Durant with only two of those coming at the rim.

    Your logic is completely flawed when using "total dunks" to suggest that he has no problem getting to the rim. And it actually works against your argument.
    What about when 27% of Durant's offensive production(That's including FT's) came from around the rim, yet he still converted at a 70% clip?

    If you look at how many of their at-rim attempts were assisted, you will see that all of those guys have a lot less than Durant. Most of Durant's close shots were assisted. Which to me would suggest that, based on the stats, these guys are getting themselves to the rim and don't need to be set up to finish at the rim. Durant is not even close in this regard
    Why is it that when 47% of Durant's at rim attempts were assisted, his conversion rate was still higher than any clip Melo has ever posted? Why is it that when 50% of Durant's at rim attempts were assisted, he posted a clip of 70%? Again, higher than any clip Melo has ever posted.

    Why was Melo still hovering around the mid 50 and 60 percentiles when 63%(higher than any clip in Durant's career) of his shots were assisted? What about when 58% of his at rim attempts were assisted?

    To better illustrate my point...

    Melo:

    07-08: 63% // 63 %AS
    08-09: 66% // 58 %AS(57.9)
    09-10: 57% // 49 %AS(48.5)

    Oh, and for good measure, while he was in Denver this season.

    10-11: 55% // 51 %AS

    Durant:

    08-09: 68% // 48 %AS(47.5)
    09-10: 70% // 50 %AS(49.8)
    10-11: 77% // 61 %AS(60.8)

    So, even when Melo was assisted more than Durant on his at rim attempts, Durant finished with significantly higher conversion rates.

    But, that's not something I even needed statistics to know.
    Obviously you did, because you didn't know. You're arguing that Durant can't get to the rim, and needs to be assisted, going so far as to claim that "Durant isn't even close in this regard", when Melo is generally assisted more around the rim. So much so, that his highest %AS ratio is two percentiles higher than Durant's, and he's finished with a couple %AS ratios higher than Durant's second highest.

    You are the only one on this board that would say that Durant is better at getting to the rim and is a better finisher at the rim than LeBron, Wade, Rose, and Melo.
    Then I'm the only one on this board whose right.

    Also. I made it quite clear that I wasn't arguing Durant was a superior finisher to LeBron and Wade.

    And just so you know, OKC has been one of the top teams in the league in terms of fast break points. OKC has gotten more fast break points than Denver over the last two years. So that argument against Melo, actually works against Durant.
    I'm not arguing that fast break points influenece anything, really. That was your excuse. I was merely pointing out that all of their respective teams are within 3 fast break points per games of one another.

    But, to put this in perspective...

    Denver finished with 14 fast break points per game to OKC's 16 this season, and 15.1 to OKC's 15.7 last season. I'm sure that .6 difference in attempts contributed heavily to Durant finishing 10% better than Melo around the rim with significantly more dunks.

    These percentages are not comparable between the two because of they play much differently than each other. And when you think about their playing styles, it just makes sense as to why Durant's is higher
    There's just so many excuses at this point for why Melo can't match Durant's conversion rate around the rim. Style, attempts, %AS, fast break points, etc. Anyways. Whatever the style, Durant finishes better.
    Melo both gets to the rim more than Durant and scores more points at the rim than Durant. Your stats should tell you that. Melo is better in that area. That's really not up for debate.
    Funny you mention that. Because I can actually provide you with "makes around the rim".

    10-11: 77% 3.6A // 2.8 M > 66% 5.4A // 3.6 M
    09-10: 70% 5.3A // 3.7 M > 60% 7.9A // 4.7 M
    08-09: 68% 5.1A // 3.4 M > 57% 6.5A // 3.7 M
    07-08: 61% 4.4A // 2.7 M < 66% 7.2A // 4.8 M

    What does this tell us? That, despite the discrepancy in attempts, their respective makes are typically within a point of each other. In 08-09 for example, Melo throws up 1.5 more shots than Durant around the rim, yet has .3 more makes. In 09-10, Melo throws 2.6 more shots than Durant around he rim, yet has 1 more make. In 10-11, 1.8 more attempts, .8 more makes. In other words, regardless of attempts, makes, or even %AS, Durant finishes better than Melo around the rim.

    So, you're correct. This really isn't up for debate. Durant is the better finisher. He shots lets while making a comparable number of shots. Hooray for efficiency.

    Let me ask you, is Luke Ridnour a better 3pt shooter than Durant? I mean, Ridnour did have almost a 10% higher 3pt shooting percentage. So did Richard Jefferson. So that would almost have to mean that they both have more range and are better 3pt shooters right? I mean, Durant's percentage isn't even close to theirs.

    What are your thoughts Bumi?
    My thoughts? I give respect to sample sizes, and Durant shoots too many three's.

    Career 3pt %

    Jefferson: 37%
    Ridnour: 36%
    Durant: 36%

    I don't expect the trend to continue though. Jefferson and Ridnour have had more prime years, contributing to their superior percentages. If he stops settling as much, and gets back to what he was doing in 08-09 and 09-10, I suspect Durant will eclipse their career averages as soon as next season. Today though, I wouldn't argue that Durant is a superior 3pt shooter to either. It's prettier when he shoots it though. But basketball isn't about aesthetics. It's about production.

    Comment

    • ehh
      Hall Of Fame
      • Mar 2003
      • 28962

      #137
      Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

      I'm looking forward to if/when AB chimes in on this topic.
      "You make your name in the regular season, and your fame in the postseason." - Clyde Frazier

      "Beware of geeks bearing formulas." - Warren Buffet

      Comment

      • slimm44
        MVP
        • Sep 2005
        • 3253

        #138
        Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

        I thought our old discussion in the Mid-range game thread was vicious. I'm pretty sure this one takes the cake, though.

        Gotta appreciate a good back-and-forth, though.
        Acts 2:38. Let the truth be told.
        John 4:23. He is seeking a seeker.
        John 3:20. Say no to normal.

        Comment

        • 1Rose
          Banned
          • Jun 2011
          • 2562

          #139
          Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

          All these stats are jumbling my brain. It's a bit redundant, especially when you're (Bumi) comparing such small samples of each others game.

          For instance, when referencing shots around the rim. You are acting like the discrepancy in % is so astronomical, that its without quesiton, but when you're talking in such a small sample size (i.e. 5-7 shots a game) 1 or more missed shot(s) can swing the percentage dramatically. That is where you need to go to your eye to really breakdown these attempts, which you refuse to do.

          You can not sit here and tell me that Durant and Melo go to the rim in the same fashion. Melo obviously gets there more, shown by your stats. He's stronger, and looks for contact in the paint. Being he was in an offense geared towards the half-court in Denver, he would obviously be met by more resistance at the rim.

          The Thunder are obviously a team geared towards transition and getting out on the fast break which are obviously going to create a lot more easy opportunities around the rim. Not saying all his attempts are always on the break, but that would obviously bump up his efficiency, seeing the Thunder were one of the most efficient Transition offenses in the NBA.

          I just don't see how this can be ignored, when comparing such small discrepancies in players.

          So, I'm going to simplify the stats here. Screw all this efficiency crap.

          Scoring per 48 mins:

          Carmelo Anthony: 34.4
          Kevin Durant: 34.1

          Hmmm...

          PPG:
          Kevin Durant: 27.7 ppg in 38.9mins
          Carmelo Anthony: 25.6 ppg in 35.7 mins

          Only averages 2 ppg more in 3 more minutes of play.

          FG%
          Kevin Durant: 46.2%
          Carmelo Anothony: 45.5%

          Less than a 1% difference.

          The difference in these 2 really isn't as VAST as you say, and by the stats, Melo gets more out of his game in less time giving him the higher PPG in 48 mins. When the gap is that close, I look at a stat like this...

          After each being in the league 3 years...


          64%

          35%


          That's the FG% on game winning shots. Melo by a long shot. That was only after 3 years, his percentage today is still considerably higher. Give me the guy that's going to win me the game when it matters.

          Along with Melo's more advanced repertoire on offense and the different ways he can score, I'm taking Melo.
          Last edited by 1Rose; 06-24-2011, 10:16 AM.

          Comment

          • DC35
            Rookie
            • Jun 2011
            • 43

            #140
            Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

            Originally posted by 1Rose
            All these stats are jumbling my brain. It's a bit redundant, especially when you're (Bumi) comparing such small samples of each others game.

            For instance, when referencing shots around the rim. You are acting like the discrepancy in % is so astronomical, that its without quesiton, but when you're talking in such a small sample size (i.e. 5-7 shots a game) 1 or more missed shot(s) can swing the percentage dramatically. That is where you need to go to your eye to really breakdown these attempts, which you refuse to do.

            You can not sit here and tell me that Durant and Melo go to the rim in the same fashion. Melo obviously gets there more, shown by your stats. He's stronger, and looks for contact in the paint. Being he was in an offense geared towards the half-court in Denver, he would obviously be met by more resistance at the rim.

            The Thunder are obviously a team geared towards transition and getting out on the fast break which are obviously going to create a lot more easy opportunities around the rim. Not saying all his attempts are always on the break, but that would obviously bump up his efficiency, seeing the Thunder were one of the most efficient Transition offenses in the NBA.

            I just don't see how this can be ignored, when comparing such small discrepancies in players.

            So, I'm going to simplify the stats here. Screw all this efficiency crap.

            Scoring per 48 mins:

            Carmelo Anthony: 34.4
            Kevin Durant: 34.1

            Hmmm...

            PPG:
            Kevin Durant: 27.7 ppg in 38.9mins
            Carmelo Anthony: 25.6 ppg in 35.7 mins

            Only averages 2 ppg more in 3 more minutes of play.

            FG%
            Kevin Durant: 46.2%
            Carmelo Anothony: 45.5%

            Less than a 1% difference.

            The difference in these 2 really isn't as VAST as you say, and by the stats, Melo gets more out of his game in less time giving him the higher PPG in 48 mins. When the gap is that close, I look at a stat like this...

            After each being in the league 3 years...


            64%

            35%


            That's the FG% on game winning shots. Melo by a long shot. That was only after 3 years, his percentage today is still considerably higher. Give me the guy that's going to win me the game when it matters.

            Along with Melo's more advanced repertoire on offense and the different ways he can score, I'm taking Melo.
            Win when it matters? Melo only been out the first round once winning when it matters isn't something he is accustomed to doing lol but yea i actually do think Melo is better at getting to the rim and is the more complete scorer i still think KD is the better scorer, better defender, and if he continues to rebound like he did in the playoffs he will become the better rebounder.

            Comment

            • Yeah...THAT Guy
              Once in a Lifetime Memory
              • Dec 2006
              • 17294

              #141
              Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

              Originally posted by DC35
              Win when it matters? Melo only been out the first round once winning when it matters isn't something he is accustomed to doing lol but yea i actually do think Melo is better at getting to the rim and is the more complete scorer i still think KD is the better scorer, better defender, and if he continues to rebound like he did in the playoffs he will become the better rebounder.
              He's lost to the NBA Champs almost every single season and his team has been the underdog in just about every series they've played in.
              NFL: Bills
              NBA: Bucks
              MLB: Cubs
              NCAA: Syracuse
              Soccer: USMNT/DC United

              PSN: ButMyT-GunDont

              Comment

              • 1Rose
                Banned
                • Jun 2011
                • 2562

                #142
                Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                Originally posted by DC35
                Win when it matters? Melo only been out the first round once winning when it matters isn't something he is accustomed to doing lol but yea i actually do think Melo is better at getting to the rim and is the more complete scorer i still think KD is the better scorer, better defender, and if he continues to rebound like he did in the playoffs he will become the better rebounder.
                Yea, you know, like at the end of the game? That's usually when it matters.

                Comment

                • The 24th Letter
                  ERA
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 39373

                  #143
                  Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                  From this point forward, I will refer to stats as "'Bumis"

                  Comment

                  • Crossover1
                    MVP
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 1925

                    #144
                    Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                    LOL @ 24th
                    'Only The Strong Survive'

                    Comment

                    • Yeah...THAT Guy
                      Once in a Lifetime Memory
                      • Dec 2006
                      • 17294

                      #145
                      Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                      Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                      From this point forward, I will refer to stats as "'Bumis"
                      If it weren't for the fact that I'm at work and the thumbs up doesn't appear here, I would like this.
                      NFL: Bills
                      NBA: Bucks
                      MLB: Cubs
                      NCAA: Syracuse
                      Soccer: USMNT/DC United

                      PSN: ButMyT-GunDont

                      Comment

                      • Crossover1
                        MVP
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 1925

                        #146
                        Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                        Originally posted by Yeah...THAT Guy
                        If it weren't for the fact that I'm at work and the thumbs up doesn't appear here, I would like this.
                        Don't worry, I got u...
                        'Only The Strong Survive'

                        Comment

                        • bigfnjoe96
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Feb 2004
                          • 11410

                          #147
                          Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                          <iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pAr1mP2J0X8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                          A little something, something that STATS can't show you

                          Comment

                          • Outcast
                            Rookie
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 351

                            #148
                            Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                            Originally posted by bigfnjoe96
                            <iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pAr1mP2J0X8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                            A little something, something that STATS can't show you
                            till KD is able to take over a game when he is the only scoring option against one of the top defensive teams and in the playoffs I will put him ahead of 'Melo. But for now, offensively regarding skill and skill only, it's melo > durant

                            Comment

                            • Bumi
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 967

                              #149
                              Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                              Originally posted by bigfnjoe96
                              <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pAr1mP2J0X8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>

                              A little something, something that STATS can't show you

                              Stats don't reflect losses?


                              <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2onPqStNnkk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="349" width="560"></iframe>


                              <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/X7NQOtMDwhQ" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="349" width="560"></iframe>


                              Two of Durant's 3 40 point games this postseason. More 40 point postseason games than Melo has had in his career. And Durant's team won. Imagine that.

                              Comment

                              • ehh
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Mar 2003
                                • 28962

                                #150
                                Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

                                Durant's team won those games because he didn't have a D-League supporting cast like Melo did in Game 2 vs Boston. No Amare, no Billups. The Knicks should have lost that game by 20+ points.
                                "You make your name in the regular season, and your fame in the postseason." - Clyde Frazier

                                "Beware of geeks bearing formulas." - Warren Buffet

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