Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

But there's still so many variables not accounted for. How much melo improved from year 1 to year 5, how many defenders were on him on his layups as he began to demand more respect from defenses at the rim. Things like that can't be captured by statistics (at least not yet)

All that's irrelevant, really. What matters is the consistency at which they convert, regardless of the situational basis. Also, I very much doubt Melo receives more defensive attention than Durant. I'd say it's comparable, and not worth arguing either way. The fact is, Durant finishes better at the rim regardless of the circumstances.

And I don't think a shooting percentage can distinguish who is a better shooter when the numbers are so close because no two shots are the same. These metrics don't take intO account the difficulty of a shot (like that buzzer beater Durant had vs the Knicks or whoever it was vs a wide open 3). Those aren't the same shot but statistics count them the same and things like that can change percentages to the point that small gaps might not realistically be gaps at all.

Yea, I'm not arguing against FG percentages.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

All that's irrelevant, really. What matters is the consistency at which they convert, regardless of the situational basis. Also, I very much doubt Melo receives more defensive attention than Durant. I'd say it's comparable, and not worth arguing either way. The fact is, Durant finishes better at the rim regardless of the circumstances.

I'm not saying Melo receives more defensive attention than Durant. I'm saying Melo receives more defensive attention now then he did as a rookie.


And the fact that you say it's irrelevant is just arrogant in my opinion.

Yea, I'm not arguing against FG percentages.

Since when?

[nogster]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I think Carmello is the most complete scorer in the game.
he can score from anywhere, he has range, can attack the basket and finish, pullup, has handles to create his own shot along with strength and quickness, is formidable in the post. there isnt anything he cant do offensively.
But durant is a superior shooter than him.
this cant be doubted.
Once durant gets some strength as he physically matures as an elite athlete, he will develop a post game and will be truly unguardable.

defensively, both are average at best. although Durant tries harder on that end than carmello. and durants wingspan and youth undoubtedly gives the potential to be a superior defender in time. Again he just needs to get some strength. carmello simply doesnt care about the defensive end like he should. he has the tools. but not the will.
Same with rebounding. Carmello could be a double digit rebounder with his physical talents. but his will isnt there.

Durants intangibles give him the big edge.
I dont think any gm would pick Melo over Durant.

Durant wins.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I think Carmello is the most complete scorer in the game.
he can score from anywhere, he has range, can attack the basket and finish, pullup, has handles to create his own shot along with strength and quickness, is formidable in the post. there isnt anything he cant do offensively.
But durant is a superior shooter than him.
this cant be doubted.
Once durant gets some strength as he physically matures as an elite athlete, he will develop a post game and will be truly unguardable.

defensively, both are average at best. although Durant tries harder on that end than carmello. and durants wingspan and youth undoubtedly gives the potential to be a superior defender in time. Again he just needs to get some strength. carmello simply doesnt care about the defensive end like he should. he has the tools. but not the will.
Same with rebounding. Carmello could be a double digit rebounder with his physical talents. but his will isnt there.

Durants intangibles give him the big edge.
I dont think any gm would pick Melo over Durant.

Durant wins.

I disagree. What a blanket statement.

[DC35]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I think Carmello is the most complete scorer in the game.
he can score from anywhere, he has range, can attack the basket and finish, pullup, has handles to create his own shot along with strength and quickness, is formidable in the post. there isnt anything he cant do offensively.
But durant is a superior shooter than him.
this cant be doubted.
Once durant gets some strength as he physically matures as an elite athlete, he will develop a post game and will be truly unguardable.

defensively, both are average at best. although Durant tries harder on that end than carmello. and durants wingspan and youth undoubtedly gives the potential to be a superior defender in time. Again he just needs to get some strength. carmello simply doesnt care about the defensive end like he should. he has the tools. but not the will.
Same with rebounding. Carmello could be a double digit rebounder with his physical talents. but his will isnt there.

Durants intangibles give him the big edge.
I dont think any gm would pick Melo over Durant.

Durant wins.

I agree with all this

[DieHardYankee26]

I disagree. What a blanket statement.

Disagree with what exactly?

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I think Carmello is the most complete scorer in the game.
he can score from anywhere, he has range, can attack the basket and finish, pullup, has handles to create his own shot along with strength and quickness, is formidable in the post. there isnt anything he cant do offensively.
But durant is a superior shooter than him.
this cant be doubted.
Once durant gets some strength as he physically matures as an elite athlete, he will develop a post game and will be truly unguardable.

defensively, both are average at best. although Durant tries harder on that end than carmello. and durants wingspan and youth undoubtedly gives the potential to be a superior defender in time. Again he just needs to get some strength. carmello simply doesnt care about the defensive end like he should. he has the tools. but not the will.
Same with rebounding. Carmello could be a double digit rebounder with his physical talents. but his will isnt there.

Durants intangibles give him the big edge.
I dont think any gm would pick Melo over Durant.

Durant wins.

I agree with pretty much all of this as well, except I don't know if Durant will ever be strong to the point that it makes a huge impact on his game and I'm not sure if he'll ever develop a post game to the point that he would be "unstoppable". I don't think he'll ever develop more than just a fadeaway jumpshot from the post, but this is all pure speculation obviously.

I think the key for Melo is whether he'll play defense like he did in the playoffs or play defense like he has in the regular season in year's past. If he plays the way he played in the playoffs defensively, while playing with the offensive game we've come accustomed to seeing from him, I think he's easily a top 5 player in the NBA. That's really the only thing missing from his game at this point, and he showed he can do it in the playoffs this season.

[bigfnjoe96]

This idea that Melo doesn't have the will to play D is some what disingenuous. Especially since being traded to NY.

The man played some of his best D once he got traded.

Sent from my Awesome Phone via tapatalk

[TMagic]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

OK well that's what the debate is about, lol.

I don't think Melo is underrated by any means, btw. I think the consensus is correct in not including him in the top 5-7. Putting him in there would be a tough case.

With names like James, Bryant, Wade, Dirk, Howard, Paul, Durant, Rose, it's hard to put him there. Now top 10, yes, he belongs IMO. Interestingly enough, most of the responses in the thread have been that Melo currently is the "better" ball player.

So that's the discussion.

I think age is playing the biggest factor in regards to people placing Durant ahead of Melo in the NBA's top whatever lists. If they were the same age, or had the same experience, you would see Melo mentioned just as much as Durant.

When people see Durant, they are seeing how good he is now and see the potential for greatness that he possesses. So that alone increases his worth and helps to make him better in the eyes of most.

Just imagine if Melo was 22. That both he and Durant came in the same year. Everybody would be just as excited for Melo as they are for Durant. Not only that, but Durant is just more likable. lol

But that is not the discussion. It's which player is better today, right now.

For me, that's Melo. But if we're talking about which player I'd want to start a franchise with, I'm going Durant. And I believe that is the consensus among most.

I would just like to point out another issue with Yeah's gripe about "at rim" percentages.

Melo, regardless of attempts. Whether he was attempting 9(9.4) shots at the rim per game as he did in 2007, or the 5(5.4) attempts he finished with exclusively as a NYK. He's consistently finished in from the mid 50's, to the mid 60's percentage wise. That's never changed.

By the same token, Durant, regardless of attempts. Whether it's the 4(3.6) he finished with this season, or the 5(5.1 and 5.3 respectively) he finished with the two seasons prior to this season. He's always finished with high 60 to low 70's percentage wise. Consistency.

As I mentioned before, finishing around the rim is one of Durant's weakest areas. He is not strong enough nor creative enough to finish in traffic consistently. Not only that, but he has trouble getting all the way to the cup to begin with.

Durant gets most of his shots at the rim from fast breaks and from back door cuts. Easy baskets, which results in a higher field goal percentage. It makes sense for him to have a higher percentage at the rim. That does not make him a better finisher at the rim. Using your logic, Durant would be a better finisher than Wade, LeBron, and Rose which is simply NOT true.

Durant only attempts 3.6 shots at the rim. Now is that because he settles for the jumper too often, or is it because he struggles getting to the rim?

On the other hand, Melo has always been at the top of the league at attempts around the rim. If we exclude his last 27 games as a Knick and just look at the previous 5 years (which is what we should be doing as that paints a more accurate picture. Increased sample size), he averaged somewhere around 7.6 attempts at the rim per game. That's more than Dwight Howard and over double of what Durant attempted this year.

I'd just like to reiterate that he attempts more shots around the rim than Dwight Howard.

Combining that with what I've seen, Melo is a much better player getting to the rim and his ability to finish at the rim is much better than Durant's. I don't even see how that is an argument.

[ehh]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

All that's irrelevant, really. What matters is the consistency at which they convert, regardless of the situational basis. Also, I very much doubt Melo receives more defensive attention than Durant. I'd say it's comparable, and not worth arguing either way. The fact is, Durant finishes better at the rim regardless of the circumstances.

Melo's an isolation scorer, that in itself means he'll receive more defensive attention than Durant.

[ehh]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

As I mentioned before, finishing around the rim is one of Durant's weakest areas. He is not strong enough nor creative enough to finish in traffic consistently. Not only that, but he has trouble getting all the way to the cup to begin with.

Durant gets most of his shots at the rim from fast breaks and from back door cuts. Easy baskets, which results in a higher field goal percentage. It makes sense for him to have a higher percentage at the rim. That does not make him a better finisher at the rim. Using your logic, Durant would be a better finisher than Wade, LeBron, and Rose which is simply NOT true.

Durant only attempts 3.6 shots at the rim. Now is that because he settles for the jumper too often, or is it because he struggles getting to the rim?

On the other hand, Melo has always been at the top of the league at attempts around the rim. If we exclude his last 27 games as a Knick and just look at the previous 5 years (which is what we should be doing as that paints a more accurate picture. Increased sample size), he averaged somewhere around 7.6 attempts at the rim per game. That's more than Dwight Howard and over double of what Durant attempted this year.

This, a thousand times over. Thank you, TMagic.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I think age is playing the biggest factor in regards to people placing Durant ahead of Melo in the NBA's top whatever lists. If they were the same age, or had the same experience, you would see Melo mentioned just as much as Durant.

When people see Durant, they are seeing how good he is now and see the potential for greatness that he possesses. So that alone increases his worth and helps to make him better in the eyes of most.

Just imagine if Melo was 22. That both he and Durant came in the same year. Everybody would be just as excited for Melo as they are for Durant. Not only that, but Durant is just more likable. lol

Why do you assume that? Melo has been 22 before. What he wasn't at 22; was a former rookie of the year, two time scoring champion(youngest ever), two time All Star, two time all NBA first team-er(youngest ever), and a FIBA gold medalist and MVP. He hadn't posted the most efficient 28+ PPG season for a perimeter player in 20 seasons. He also hadn't been out of the first round of the playoffs. Etc. Hell, At 27, he still hasn't accomplished a few of the above.

As I mentioned before, finishing around the rim is one of Durant's weakest areas. He is not strong enough nor creative enough to finish in traffic consistently.

And you can say it against after this post. It'll be as wrong then as the first time you said it.

Not only that, but he has trouble getting all the way to the cup to begin with.

Clearly. Evident by the 125 dunks he put down this season.

Durant gets most of his shots at the rim from fast breaks and from back door cuts.

Really? Because the same can easily be said for LeBron, Wade, Rose, and others. Sans the back door cuts of course. All of their respective teams are within 3 fast-break points per game of one another. Also, wasn't Denver one of the league leaders in pace whole Melo was on the team? I seem to remember them doing a ton of running. A lot of it involving Melo leaking out on fast breaks for easy buckets at the other end.

Easy baskets, which results in a higher field goal percentage. It makes sense for him to have a higher percentage at the rim. That does not make him a better finisher at the rim. Using your logic, Durant would be a better finisher than Wade, LeBron, and Rose which is simply NOT true.

Durant is a better finisher around the rim than Rose. I wont argue against Wade and LeBron, as he hasn't consistently finished better around the rim than the duo. This is the first season he's ever finished better than LeBron, and noticeably better than Wade. Typically he and Wade are within a percentile of one another. Rose, however, isn't even close. Durant has never finished below Rose. Regardless of attempts.

10-11: 77%(3.6A) > 60%(6.3A)
09-10: 70%(5.3A) > 55%(5.6A)
08-09: 68%(5.1A) > 58%(5.9A)

Durant only attempts 3.6 shots at the rim. Now is that because he settles for the jumper too often, or is it because he struggles getting to the rim?

Settles for the jumper too often. Especially long three's. Prior to this season, in both 09-10 and 08-09, he finished with 5 attempts per game at the rim. Finished at 70%(69.8%) and 68% respectively.

Combining that with what I've seen, Melo is a much better player getting to the rim and his ability to finish at the rim is much better than Durant's. I don't even see how that is an argument.

I agree.

10-11: 77%(3.6A) > 66%(5.4A)
09-10: 70%(5.3A) > 60%(7.9A)
08-09: 68%(5.1A) > 57%(6.5A)
07-08: 61%(4.4A) < 66%(7.2A)

Melo hasn't finished better than Durant since 07-08, when Durant was a rookie. Also, Melo's 10-11 numbers are inflated. I only used the numbers he posted as a Knick, which were very generous in comparison to his numbers as a Nugget.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Melo's an isolation scorer, that in itself means he'll receive more defensive attention than Durant.

Funny you mention that, considering that, in 09-10 for example, Durant averaged more points per possession in ISO sets than Melo.

46% of Carmelo Anthony's shots came in ISO sets. In ISO situations he scored on 42% of the possessions. Averaging a total of 1.04 Points Per Possession in ISO's. In comparison, Only 37% of Durant's shot came in ISO sets but he converted at 46%, and averaged 1.08 Points per Possession. Second in the league to LeBron James.

Not arguing that Melo isn't an iso scorer and Durant is, I merely found the statistic interesting.

[TMagic]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Why do you assume that? Melo has been 22 before. What he wasn't at 22; was a former rookie of the year, two time scoring champion(youngest ever), two time All Star, two time all NBA first team-er(youngest ever), and a FIBA gold medalist and MVP. He hadn't posted the most efficient 28+ PPG season for a perimeter player in 20 seasons. He also hadn't been out of the first round of the playoffs. Etc. Hell, At 27, he still hasn't accomplished a few of the above.

I'm not comparing their careers. Not comparing accolades. You totally missed my point.

And you can say it against after this post. It'll be as wrong then as the first time you said it.

I don't see how one can watch Durant play and not see that he isn't the most talented finisher. That's where statistics are clouding your judgement.

Clearly. Evident by the 125 dunks he put down this season.

That is simply ridiculous and another example of how stats are not the end all you have been proclaiming them to be.

If Durant gets one fast break dunk every game and every other game gets two (which is the realm of possibility), he gets 125 dunks.

Dunks are typically easy baskets. Plain and simple. The majority of dunks for wings come off of fast breaks and cuts to the rim. Dunks that are created off a players own dribble and own ball handling are atypical. They don't happen often.

By bringing this up, you are just reaffirming that the reason Durant's shot percentage is so high and his attempts are low is because he's not good at attacking the rim. He averages 1.6 dunks per game, leaving him with one shot per game that he gets at the rim aside from an easy dunk.

So when you factor that in (made dunks aside), that's 18 shots per game for Durant with only two of those coming at the rim.

Your logic is completely flawed when using "total dunks" to suggest that he has no problem getting to the rim. And it actually works against your argument.

Really? Because the same can easily be said for LeBron, Wade, Rose, and others. Sans the back door cuts of course. All of their respective teams are within 3 fast-break points per game of one another. Also, wasn't Denver one of the league leaders in pace whole Melo was on the team? I seem to remember them doing a ton of running. A lot of it involving Melo leaking out on fast breaks for easy buckets at the other end.

Durant is a better finisher around the rim than Rose. I wont argue against Wade and LeBron, as he hasn't consistently finished better around the rim than the duo. This is the first season he's ever finished better than LeBron, and noticeably better than Wade. Typically he and Wade are within a percentile of one another. Rose, however, isn't even close. Durant has never finished below Rose. Regardless of attempts.

10-11: 77%(3.6A) > 60%(6.3A)
09-10: 70%(5.3A) > 55%(5.6A)
08-09: 68%(5.1A) > 58%(5.9A)

If you look at how many of their at-rim attempts were assisted, you will see that all of those guys have a lot less than Durant. Most of Durant's close shots were assisted. Which to me would suggest that, based on the stats, these guys are getting themselves to the rim and don't need to be set up to finish at the rim. Durant is not even close in this regard.

But, that's not something I even needed statistics to know. You are the only one on this board that would say that Durant is better at getting to the rim and is a better finisher at the rim than LeBron, Wade, Rose, and Melo.

And just so you know, OKC has been one of the top teams in the league in terms of fast break points. OKC has gotten more fast break points than Denver over the last two years. So that argument against Melo, actually works against Durant.

I agree.


10-11: 77%(3.6A) > 66%(5.4A)
09-10: 70%(5.3A) > 60%(7.9A)
08-09: 68%(5.1A) > 57%(6.5A)
07-08: 61%(4.4A) < 66%(7.2A)

Melo hasn't finished better than Durant since 07-08, when Durant was a rookie. Also, Melo's 10-11 numbers are inflated. I only used the numbers he posted as a Knick, which were very generous in comparison to his numbers as a Nugget.

These percentages are not comparable between the two because of they play much differently than each other. And when you think about their playing styles, it just makes sense as to why Durant's is higher.

Melo both gets to the rim more than Durant and scores more points at the rim than Durant. Your stats should tell you that. Melo is better in that area. That's really not up for debate.


Let me ask you, is Luke Ridnour a better 3pt shooter than Durant? I mean, Ridnour did have almost a 10% higher 3pt shooting percentage. So did Richard Jefferson. So that would almost have to mean that they both have more range and are better 3pt shooters right? I mean, Durant's percentage isn't even close to theirs.

What are your thoughts Bumi?

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Let me ask you, is Luke Ridnour a better 3pt shooter than Durant? I mean, Ridnour did have a 10% higher 3pt shooting percentage. So did Richard Jefferson. What are your thoughts Bumi?

I already tried this with him and he admitted that Beno Udrih must be a better finisher at the rim than LeBron and Melo too lol (I assume he was being sarcastic, but at the same time, I showed that if you argue Durant as a better finisher, then you have to agree that Udrih is as well)