NBA Lockout and Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion

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  • RedSceptile
    MVP
    • Jun 2011
    • 3680

    #151
    Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

    Well I had an idea similar to yours that could work one of two ways.

    Max Deal Five Years; Owners still can sign players to these contracts but certain stipulations would affect whether or not they lose value (protecting them against the Gilbert Arenas and Eddy Curry's).

    1) After 2 and a half seasons of play depending on whether the player lived up to the contract, they can be bought out at 25% of the highest year's salary. So if you signed Eddy Curry to a 5 year 100 million dollar contract and his play doesn't warrant it (I'll get on to that in a minute) you can buy out the rest of his contract for 4 million on a 20 million per year scale.

    2) To be fair to the owner every max deal would have completely non-negotiable stipulations the most important being playing time. If over 2 seasons and a half (205 games) the player has missed significant time i.e. games (roughly one third of the total games or an average of 28 games a season these numbers can be ironned out obviously) due to INJURIES not things like Coach Decision DNP, or Family Emergencies the contract can be bought out so that something that seemed like a good decision in hindsight doesn't turn ugly fast because of sudden injuries (Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Grant Hill and so on).

    3) This one I'm still play-testing with, this is the performance aspect of the contract. How this works is two fold; allow for the oversight of "stat padders" versus guys who have been consistent their careers. Everyone knows that stat padder, the guy who puts up huge numbers on a bad team, or suddenly puts up huge numbers the last year of his contract, gets signed to a lucrative deal and then fades into the sunset. Guys like these would be under intense scrutiny i.e. if they have a history of being a mediocre player, the contract comes with a clause that dictates that if after 2.5 seasons the average production is like 25% less than what they signed at they canb be bought out. Now some people are wondering "What if he's an elite player and sacrificed for the greater good of the team!?" well then that's on the owner and said player can sign anywhere else at his own discretion. Now Mr. Consistent isn't exempted from this, if he was keeping his play consistent, then it started to tail-off once his contract began he'd face the same consequences.

    4) Lastly, is the player-out option. Say Player X signed a lucrative contract with a contender. For whatever reason management decides to blow the roster up and he's stuck on a rebuilding team (sound familiar anyone?) if the team fails to make the playoffs in back-to-back seasons, Player X has the option to void his contract (not receiving any pay) and become a free agent. So if for example Rip Hamilton wanted out of Detroit, after the Pisons have missed the Playoffs in consecutive seasons, he can have his contract void (also removing it from Detroit's salary cap) and sign elsewhere.

    I know my ideas are jumbled, but tell me what you guys like/dislike, constructive criticism would be appreciated.
    Last edited by RedSceptile; 09-16-2011, 09:18 AM. Reason: Counted wrong

    Comment

    • da ThRONe
      Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
      • Mar 2009
      • 8528

      #152
      Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

      Originally posted by The 24th Letter
      I absolutely do NOT want a system where owners have a safety net for making stupid decisions.

      Ugh, not suprised AT ALL at the owners holding up the talks...so much for starting on time.
      I agree. The owners are being let off the hook because some people think players don't earn their money. The owners need to hire the proper FO people. If you do any kind of due diligence you would know Demarcus Cousins is very immature and Ed Curry is lazy before giving out that kind of money. If your a FO that gambles on a huge risk and lose you have to deal with the outcome.

      As a poker player I wish I could push all in on a one outer and get my money back when I lose.

      Imagine if you work for a place that could fire you whenever they felt like they could do better, but because you signed a contract you aren't able to leave if the competition offers you 3x the money.
      You looking at the Chair MAN!

      Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

      Comment

      • aholbert32
        (aka Alberto)
        • Jul 2002
        • 33106

        #153
        Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

        Good News?

        "On Stephen A. Smith's show, Billy Hunter, executive director of the National Basketball Players Association said some fascinating things about the state of negotiations.

        On predicting the future:

        I think I'll be back on your show in another two weeks talking about something different then we're talking about tonight.

        Another two weeks?

        Yeah.

        Is that a good sign? ... If you come back in two weeks, Billy, will we be laughing and celebrating something Billy Hunter?

        I don't know, we might be. I don't know. I'm waiting to see.

        On agents:

        They're not in the room, they really don't know what's going on.

        On next steps:

        There are no talks scheduled. I'm hoping that maybe the commissioner or one of the owners will say something to indicate that they're willing to come back, sit down and reconcile things. Short of that we're just going to be at a standstill."

        Comment

        • Dice
          Sitting by the door
          • Jul 2002
          • 6627

          #154
          Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

          Maybe the dissension amongst the owners is starting to break down their unity?

          Looking between the lines out of all the reports and quotes, I'm starting to believe even more that last week Stern and Fisher had a proposed deal and they need to run it by their perspective parties. It looks like the players are fine with it BUT I guess the agents got wind of the deal and didn't like it. I figured they told Hunter not to take that deal BUT Hunter told them we're taking it. So the agents got upset at Hunter's rejection and started talking to their clients about voting him out. I'm thinking that didn't work so well.

          As far as my speculation with the owners, Stern explained the deal and it looks like the big market owners are for it. BUT I guess the big market owners are probably for anything outside of cancelling the season since they have the most to loose with no season. It looks like the hard liners(Gilbert, Sarver and a few other small market owners) might have gave Stern some kick back about the deal. And from what one report said, Buss is not happy with Gilbert. Probably because Gilbert is the one from the owners side leading the charge to sabotage the season.
          I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

          Comment

          • aholbert32
            (aka Alberto)
            • Jul 2002
            • 33106

            #155
            Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

            Here is Bill Simmons:



            After wasting nearly the whole summer pointing fingers, leaking stories to reporters and doing everything except getting in a room and negotiating, Billy Hunter's side finally came down a little … and, of course, instead of just agreeing on a better revenue split (right now it's 57/43 for the players, but both sides know it will land somewhere around 51/49), four-year maxes for guaranteed contracts (easily achievable, and absolutely necessary because teams literally can't stop themselves from overpaying players and being crippled by their deals) and a slightly harder salary cap — three moves that would have gotten us 87 percent of the way there — a few of the newer owners (Cleveland's Dan Gilbert and Phoenix's Robert Sarver are the biggies) are now pushing for even more stuff and that's bogging everything down. This faction believes the players' side is crumbling because a few of the biggest NBA agents (Jeff Schwartz, Arn Tellem, etc.) lost faith in Hunter and are investigating the decertification process (which would be THE dumbest thing they could do). These owners don't just want to win this lockout, they want to take a hatchet to 65 years of progress by NBA players … who, by the way, did nothing wrong other than continue to cash in on the ridiculous contracts that owners kept giving them.

            Let's take a step back and consider the stupidity of this. Sarver and Gilbert both overpaid for their teams and hope to blow up the system, then create a more favorable one that would cover up the fact that they overpaid for their teams. In Gilbert's case, he coddled LeBron for years, overpaid just about every player on his team (did Daniel Gibson write his deal himself?), showed no roster savvy whatsoever (his front office was really the Bizarro Sam Presti), crippled his own cap season after season, then flipped out when LeBron finally said, "I gotta get out of here, I need to play with better players"5 … and now he blames "the system" for what happened because there are apparently no mirrors in his house. Sarver overpaid for the Suns, realized it about a year later, then spent the next few years pinching pennies … which would have been fine if he didn't have a legitimate chance to win the title from 2005 to 2008 and also in 2010. He's the kind of guy who watched Steve Kerr build a team that came within a couple of breaks of making the 2010 Finals, then offered Kerr a pay cut. His fans hate him; hell, his own players hate him. When I made a few Sarver/Gilbert tweets yesterday, Steve Nash retweeted one of the anti-Sarver tweets.

            Why do two owners with CLEAR AGENDAS like Sarver and Gilbert have any input here? It's a great question. The NFL had three of its best and most ruthless owners (Bob Kraft, Jerry Jones and Jerry Richardson) handling its lockout; the NBA has the likes of Sarver, Gilbert, New York's James Dolan and Minnesota's Glen Taylor involved. Have you watched how they run their teams? For god's sake, Taylor just splurged on a coach (Rick Adelman) who told him in no uncertain terms, "I am not answering to your current GM," so instead of firing that GM (David Kahn, the least respected GM in the league by a landslide), Taylor decided, "OK, you don't have to answer to him" AND KEPT BOTH GUYS!!!!!!!! And Dolan is Dolan — he's basically the train from Unstoppable at all times. Why should I expect those four owners to have great insight into solving something as complicated as a labor dispute?

            And are we really missing games over this? You should have labor stoppages only because of real issues — like what we had in 1964, when the players nearly sat out the All-Star Game in Boston because they were being treated so badly, or in 1998, when the players were suddenly making so much money that the owners needed a better way to protect themselves. We're not even close to that. I can tell you right now where we're ending up: 51/49 split, four-year max deals, slightly harder cap. So effing get there already. Enough with the posturing. And by the way, both sides could mention the fans once in a while, or show at least a little urgency that they're about to blow all momentum from one of the best seasons in the history of the league. If they think anyone except for die-hard basketball fans will care that there's no NBA in October, November and December — when we'll be focused on the baseball playoffs, the NFL and college football — then they're even more delusional than I thought. I hate everybody in this. Seriously. Both sides make me want to throw up.
            That was your Anusol NBA Lockout Watch for this week. Back to football.

            Comment

            • Iman2907
              Banned
              • Sep 2011
              • 106

              #156
              Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

              So does that mean Lockout or no Lockout?

              Comment

              • tehova
                b**-r*y
                • Mar 2003
                • 3694

                #157
                Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                Ive been saying 4 year max for the contracts since day 1, and 2 year deal max for mid-level players/exceptions
                Ericmaynor3.com

                Comment

                • Dice
                  Sitting by the door
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 6627

                  #158
                  Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                  Can't argue with Simmons on his points. However, I'm still feeling that the agents are the ones who's giving the players a bad name. De-certification of the union is a risk I would not take.

                  Now it's finally clear who security needs to have on it's "Arrest this person immediately if they approach the room" list the next time they come to the negotiation table:
                  - All Agents
                  - Dan Gilbert
                  - Robert Sarver
                  - Any small market owner who thinks like the previous offenders.
                  I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                  Comment

                  • Dice
                    Sitting by the door
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 6627

                    #159
                    Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                    Originally posted by Iman2907
                    So does that mean Lockout or no Lockout?
                    The Lockout is already on it's 78th day. Are you asking will there be a season? That's still up in the air.
                    I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                    Comment

                    • ScoobySnax
                      #faceuary2014
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 7624

                      #160
                      Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                      Bill Simmons has got to be one of the best sports writers ever. I absolutely love reading his column/articles.
                      Originally posted by J. Cole
                      Fool me one time that's shame on you. Fool me twice can't put the blame on you. Fool me three times, **** the peace sign, load the chopper let it rain on you.
                      PSN: xxplosive1984
                      Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/os_scoobysnax/profile

                      Comment

                      • da ThRONe
                        Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 8528

                        #161
                        Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                        I strongly dislike Bill Simmons, but I agree that a hard cap is not very likely to happen.
                        You looking at the Chair MAN!

                        Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                        Comment

                        • Rocky
                          All Star
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 6896

                          #162
                          Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                          Originally posted by da ThRONe
                          I agree. The owners are being let off the hook because some people think players don't earn their money. The owners need to hire the proper FO people. If you do any kind of due diligence you would know Demarcus Cousins is very immature and Ed Curry is lazy before giving out that kind of money. If your a FO that gambles on a huge risk and lose you have to deal with the outcome.

                          As a poker player I wish I could push all in on a one outer and get my money back when I lose.

                          Imagine if you work for a place that could fire you whenever they felt like they could do better, but because you signed a contract you aren't able to leave if the competition offers you 3x the money.
                          What about injuries? The Elton Brand deal didn't seem like a bad deal at the time, but his knee injury took away his explosiveness and now it's a terrible deal. The same is true for Arenas and countless other players.

                          As far as fair, these guys are getting paid MILLIONS to play a game. MILLIONS to play a game.

                          MILLIONS to play a game.

                          There should be a little inherent risk and uncertainty there. I played in a NFL training camp(although briefly) and I can tell you that contract is a blessing however why you slice it. Which is why I think ultimately, we will see a hardened cap and eventually the removal of guaranteed contracts (in the next CBA perhaps). Trust me, the checks are missed by players.
                          "Maybe I can't win. But to beat me, he's going to have to kill me. And to kill me, he's gonna have to have the heart to stand in front of me. And to do that, he's got to be willing to die himself. I don't know if he's ready to do that."
                          -Rocky Balboa

                          Comment

                          • ProfessaPackMan
                            Bamma
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 63852

                            #163
                            Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                            Why are people so against a "Get out of Jail" card for the Owners?

                            What is so bad/awful about it?
                            #RespectTheCulture

                            Comment

                            • The 24th Letter
                              ERA
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 39373

                              #164
                              Originally posted by Rocky
                              As far as fair, these guys are getting paid MILLIONS to play a game. MILLIONS to play a game.

                              MILLIONS to play a game..
                              They are getting paid to do a job. A sweet *** job, but a job.

                              They "filled out their resume" and "applied" for it. That same job is open to anyone who wants it. If you (not you in particular) dont think its fair, build your resume, and apply for it yourself...is how ive always looked at it.
                              Last edited by The 24th Letter; 09-16-2011, 06:06 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Dice
                                Sitting by the door
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 6627

                                #165
                                Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

                                Originally posted by ProfessaPackMan
                                Why are people so against a "Get out of Jail" card for the Owners?

                                What is so bad/awful about it?
                                Because owners should be held to a certain standard as well. If you don't know how to run a team, then you don't need to own one.
                                I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                                Comment

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