More Effective Player at age 38....

[TMagic]

38 year old passing the ball to another player that makes the shot...effective.

38 year old receiving the ball from another player and taking a 20 year old off the dribble and making the shot...more effective.

If you're old enough to know this, Magic Johnson could have been as effective as Nash at age 40 (and even older) because of the passing aspect. You can play at an older age if your focus is passing or maybe even rebounding....

...but putting the ball in the basket at a later age? Much, much tougher, so if you do it, you're more effective. Nash is effective, but Jordan was more effective.

Consider this: you could seriously go to the YMCA and play basketball with a 38 or even 40 year old who gets everyone involved by passing and that's effective. But it's more effective for that 38 year old to light you and your boys up through scoring right?

What...I dont even...

...what?

[The 24th Letter]

Marcin Gortat is Averaging Nearly 16 and 10 this season and is a Legitimate presence on both offense and Defense. Michael Jordan had the All time draft bust Kwame Brown as his center. Steve Nash has a much better team than Michael Had on the wizards and it is no contest.

Which player on the current Suns now averages more than Rip Hamilton did?

And getting past 20 year olds on a consistent basis to set up your teammates for a score isn't some walk in the park either.

[Hooe]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

How does defensive ability factor into this discussion? From the link Matrix posted (I'll admit my memory on Jordan as a Wizard is a bit foggy), it's pretty obvious that Jordan on the Wizards had a much greater defensive responsibility than Nash does now - MJ's steals per game, rebounds per game, blocks per game, and fouls per game are effectively double that of Nash's now - and Nash has never really been regarded as even a marginal defender as far as I know.

[jd@os]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

What...I dont even...

...what?

I...don't even...know how to...put it....more simply...

Link provided earlier by the Matrix shows Jordan at 38 and Nash at 37:

Jordan pts: 22.9
Nash pts: 12.7

Jordan asst: 5.2
Nash asst: 10.9

Jordan rebs: 5.7
Nash rebs: 3.0

Jordan stls: 1.4
Nash stls: 0.7

If these stats are wrong, don't blame me--blame the site. The question at hand is who is more effective at age 38. Both are effective, but Jordan was more effective just in my opinion (not fact).

I'm not sure what you didn't understand. Some people who played point guard could play at an effective rate at age 40--Magic Johnson was one--heck, Mark Jackson was one. The vital thing about playing the 1 is that you pass the ball effectively and you limit your turnovers; Nash does a phenomenal job doing that. But to do what Jordan did at 38, 39, 40--is more effective. He had numerous off nights, but the overall body of work was more effective at an older age.

I hope that's clear enough.

[jd@os]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

If you didn't get my first post, look at it this way:

I'm a 35 year old middle school teacher. Every year we have a really good boys team and every year we have a student/faculty basketball game. I played point guard when I was younger, so my job is to distribute the basketball, not turn the ball over, score when needed, and make smart decisions. If I do that, I'm effective, and I have been told as much by the students and the faculty. However a co-worker is a little older than me and a lot taller (he's 6'6" like Jordan). My job is a little easier than his, and we don't expect THAT much from him...but if he dropped 22 per game every year, had more rebounds, more steals and or blocks, then I have to admit that he's being more effective at an older age than I am.

[TMagic]

I...don't even...know how to...put it....more simply...

Link provided earlier by the Matrix shows Jordan at 38 and Nash at 37:

Jordan pts: 22.9
Nash pts: 12.7

Jordan asst: 5.2
Nash asst: 10.9

Jordan rebs: 5.7
Nash rebs: 3.0

Jordan stls: 1.4
Nash stls: 0.7

If these stats are wrong, don't blame me--blame the site. The question at hand is who is more effective at age 38. Both are effective, but Jordan was more effective just in my opinion (not fact).

I'm not sure what you didn't understand. Some people who played point guard could play at an effective rate at age 40--Magic Johnson was one--heck, Mark Jackson was one. The vital thing about playing the 1 is that you pass the ball effectively and you limit your turnovers; Nash does a phenomenal job doing that. But to do what Jordan did at 38, 39, 40--is more effective. He had numerous off nights, but the overall body of work was more effective at an older age.

I hope that's clear enough.

Man. I still don't know what your argument is. Lol

Are you arguing in terms of overall impact on a team...or individual accomplishment?

[The 24th Letter]

Forgot a stat there.....a .416% shooting clip for Jordan...

[TMagic]

If you didn't get my first post, look at it this way:

I'm a 35 year old middle school teacher. Every year we have a really good boys team and every year we have a student/faculty basketball game. I played point guard when I was younger, so my job is to distribute the basketball, not turn the ball over, score when needed, and make smart decisions. If I do that, I'm effective, and I have been told as much by the students and the faculty. However a co-worker is a little older than me and a lot taller (he's 6'6" like Jordan). My job is a little easier than his, and we don't expect THAT much from him...but if he dropped 22 per game every year, had more rebounds, more steals and or blocks, then I have to admit that he's being more effective at an older age than I am.

You're severely underrating Nash. He's not merely a game manager which it seems your making him out to be.

[jd@os]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

Forgot a stat there.....a .416% shooting clip for Jordan...

I didn't forget a stat--I just wanted to list some of the main ones involved in triple/quadruple doubles (pts, assts, rebs, stls, sometimes blocks, things like that).

I'm not really arguing guys--no need to take offense to anything. And in no way am I "severely underrating Nash", just like I won't accuse you of severely underrating Jordan. As a matter of fact, I said Nash was quite effective on numerous occasions. Get it right.

[jd@os]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw

When Steve Nash Drops 50 come talk to me number 1. Secondly Jordan was one of two players to average 25 5 and 5 going into the All star break in 2002. The Man Was still one of the best players in the League when most players at that age were either retired or were playing like poop. The wizards went from a 19-63 record from the year before to a 37-45 Record in Jordans first season And Jordan only played 60 games and led them to an even .500 record (30-30) while doing so. His supporting cast was Christian Laettner, tyron lue, kwame brown and rip hamilton and they nearly made the playoffs only because of Jordan. Steve Nash at least has a supporting cast, Michael had Richard Hamilton and thats about it. Yet their records will be almost identical once the 60th game is played by the suns. Jordan was also out of the League since 1998. Is this even a question? Jordan Hands down.

You make too much sense.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

I think context here almost kills any real reason to make this specific comparison. Firstly, you're talking about Jordan having not played for 4 years give or take before he jumped back into competition. The Artest Incident during his workout series left his physical conditioning in less than stellar shape to go along with game rust and simple old age. He was constantly hampered by small, nagging injuries that year and only played in 60 games. The obvious advantage in being able to prepare his body sooner and better was seen the following year where he didn't miss a game and saw his numbers increase across the board.

That being said, the only real difference in the Wizards' roster from the 2001 and 2002 seasons was Michael Jordan and they still saw a jump in wins from 19 to 37 with him missing games and playing hurt. There is no doubt that the Suns' current roster sans Nash isn't impressive but its still better than that Wizards line-up top to bottom and its not that close:

Suns
<table data-freeze="3" class="sortable stats_table" id="roster"><thead> </thead> <tbody> <tr data-row="0" class=""> <td align="center">26</td> <td align="left">Shannon Brown</td> <td align="center">
</td> <td align="right">
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</td> <td align="left">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="1" class=""> <td align="center">1</td> <td align="left">Josh Childress</td> <td align="center">
</td> <td align="right">
</td> <td align="right">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="2" class=""> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="left">Jared Dudley</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="3" class=""> <td align="center">8</td> <td align="left">Channing Frye</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="4" class=""> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="left">Marcin Gortat</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="5" class=""> <td align="center">33</td> <td align="left">Grant Hill</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="6" class=""> <td align="center">15</td> <td align="left">Robin Lopez</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="7" class=""> <td align="center">11</td> <td align="left">Markieff Morris</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="8" class=""> <td align="center">13</td> <td align="left">Steve Nash</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="9" class=""> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="left">Ronnie Price</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="10" class=""> <td align="center">22</td> <td align="left">Michael Redd</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="11" class=""> <td align="center">31</td> <td align="left">Sebastian Telfair</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="12" class=""> <td align="center">21</td> <td align="left">Hakim Warrick</td> <td align="center">
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</td></tr></tbody></table>

Wizards
<table data-freeze="3" class="sortable stats_table" id="roster"><tbody><tr data-row="0" class="hl"><td align="center">4</td> <td align="left">Courtney Alexander</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="1" class=""> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="left">Kwame Brown</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="2" class=""> <td align="center">24</td> <td align="left">Hubert Davis</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="3" class=""> <td align="center">32</td> <td align="left">Richard Hamilton</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="4" class=""> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="left">Brendan Haywood</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="5" class=""> <td align="center">54</td> <td align="left">Popeye Jones</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="6" class=""> <td align="center">23</td> <td align="left">Michael Jordan</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="7" class=""> <td align="center">44</td> <td align="left">Christian Laettner</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="8" class=""> <td align="center">10</td> <td align="left">Tyronn Lue</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="9" class=""> <td align="center">8</td> <td align="left">Tyrone Nesby</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="10" class=""> <td align="center">21</td> <td align="left">Bobby Simmons</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="11" class=""> <td align="center">36</td> <td align="left">Etan Thomas</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="12" class=""> <td align="center">55</td> <td align="left">Jahidi White</td> <td align="center">
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</td> </tr> <tr data-row="13" class=""> <td align="center">12</td> <td align="left">Chris Whitney</td> <td align="center">
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Popeye ****ing Jones was seeing significant action that year. Yeah, Popeye ****ing Jones. That alone should tells us about the state of that Wizards roster. Jordan was also asked (or decided, whichever you prefer) to take on more responsibility that Nash is currently required to have. He was the primary scorer and needed to be heavily involved on defense (and the boards since he mostly played at the 3).

[Jukeman]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

Damn Nash is only taking 9 shoots a game? no wonder he's shooting 54%


Edit-

Based on the link posted, I'd say they both were as effective in their own right.

But you have to give kudos to MJ from coming back to the league, taking all the shots with a high usage rate on a 19 win wizards team making them a 37 win team. Not to mention the TMAC/LBJ type stat line..

He even shot 45% in his second year at 39.

[TMagic]

I didn't forget a stat--I just wanted to list some of the main ones involved in triple/quadruple doubles (pts, assts, rebs, stls, sometimes blocks, things like that).

I'm not really arguing guys--no need to take offense to anything. And in no way am I "severely underrating Nash", just like I won't accuse you of severely underrating Jordan. As a matter of fact, I said Nash was quite effective on numerous occasions. Get it right.

But you're attempting to marginalize Nash's game.

Whenever you've described him, which was especially prevalent in your comparison to yourself, you make him sound like nothing more than an "effective" role player playing the point guard position. That his job is to be a competent point guard and keep his turnovers low.

Fact of the matter is Nash is still one of the very best PGs in the league, a complete wizard with the ball, and one of the few guys in the league that you trust to run an offense through for the majority of a game and know that your team will end up with a decent shot on offense almost every possession. Not to mention, he's still is one of the best, if not THE best, shooters in the entire league which has a big impact on a teams and adds a dimension to a teams offense that has to be accounted for.

You've been making Nash sound like he's just an average point guard, that makes passes and keeping his turnovers down.

[jd@os]

Re: More Effective Player at age 38....

You're not getting it. I said that to be an effective point guard at an older age, those were the things that would be expected of you to be considered effective. I never said that's all Nash does. Remember Mark Jackson? He could have played on because at an older age, he still could have done the things that I mentioned. He couldn't do everything that Nash does, but he could still do the things that I mention. Jason Kidd could as well--he could play until 40.

Go back and read my posts and you'll see what I'm saying and that I'm not marginalizing Nash. And while you're at it, read the good posts by the other two guys and respond to them and their good points. It's not just me.

[TMagic]

I havent even gotten into the debate of who is more "effective". I was just confused by your argument against Nash.

I think the meaning of the word "effective" needs to be cleared up first and for most.