Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

[mrprice33]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

He scored more points off of cuts, perhaps, but he impacted the game from the post with his passing and offensive rebounding.

Case in point: I just watched all of LeBron's assists in game 5 against OKC. He had 13, and 5 of them came directly from post ups (half of those from mid or high post). Almost all of the plays were initiated with LeBron in the post, which forced the Thunder to sag and collapse down. In the Dallas series, LeBron tried to initiate 1-1 from the perimeter, which is easier to defend for a team as good on defense as the 2011 Mavs.

[lufc4ever]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nope.

Honestly though, he won't win a ring, at least he won't with the Knicks. The only thing he has going for him is his scoring, and he's not the best at that (KD is). KD35 comes off screens and moves off the ball, but Melo is a ball hog who demands the ball. His defence is awful, truly terrible. It's not that he's unathletic like say, Kyle Korver, it's just he's uninterested and confused on the defensive end.

[ojandpizza]

He scored more points off of cuts, perhaps, but he impacted the game from the post with his passing and offensive rebounding.

Case in point: I just watched all of LeBron's assists in game 5 against OKC. He had 13, and 5 of them came directly from post ups (half of those from mid or high post). Almost all of the plays were initiated with LeBron in the post, which forced the Thunder to sag and collapse down. In the Dallas series, LeBron tried to initiate 1-1 from the perimeter, which is easier to defend for a team as good on defense as the 2011 Mavs.

5 of 13 assists? That's not even half of them? lol yeah that's definitely the only reason the heat won a championship this year

[wwharton]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

He scored more points off of cuts, perhaps, but he impacted the game from the post with his passing and offensive rebounding.

Case in point: I just watched all of LeBron's assists in game 5 against OKC. He had 13, and 5 of them came directly from post ups (half of those from mid or high post). Almost all of the plays were initiated with LeBron in the post, which forced the Thunder to sag and collapse down. In the Dallas series, LeBron tried to initiate 1-1 from the perimeter, which is easier to defend for a team as good on defense as the 2011 Mavs.

That's not really the point. Lebron could always pass from the post... which is exactly why double teaming him in the post all game is pretty stupid. The Mavs played him one on one more time than not, and forced him to make a "post move".

The statement attributed Lebron working on his post game as the reason he has a ring. Passing from the post isn't an area of his post game that needed work, so whatever work he put into his post game played a really small role as I was saying.

Either way this is getting way too off topic in a thread about Carmelo.

[DemiGodzillla]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

And that's EXACTLY what I disagree with... it just came on the heels of another snide/snippy post from that mchase guy.

Catching/scoring in the paint does not equal "post game". I agree with your general statement of the pressure he put on the Thunder but it wasn't bc he posted up. He did tons of movement without the ball to be able to catch it closer to the basket. That's not the same as posting up. His post game is still shaky... better than last year but still shaky. What he needed to do (and did) was get the ball closer to the basket to make a quick move/decision. That was infinitely more important than his post game.

The only time his posting had a game changingly significant impact was the last game, and that was bc the Thunder never adjusted and kept double teaming which plays to his strengths and hurt even more with the role players knocking everything down. If Dallas had double teamed continuously last year, James would've done the same thing.

Been in a constant struggle with one of my coworkers over this same discussion, I'm going to show him this thread.

It was the general consensus before this year that LeBron should be a better post player than he is/was for his size, and some people (like Skip) repeatedly said variations of "He'll never win a championship without learning to play in the post." or "he needs to learn to play in the post for the heat to win a title." consequently casual fans have now latched onto thinking that because he's won it must be because he played in the post effectively. That, or they look at him establish a deep position and immediately kick the ball out after it's dumped into him and go "look at that post game!" You're right about his post game still being shaky albeit better, but preconceived notions are hard to break.

Edit: To keep this on topic, Carmelo's not going to win a ring (IMO) and I think it's because he's got the wrong mentality for the NBA, that is, I think he's one of the most mentally confused players in the league. He always seems to me like he feels he's being wronged or not treated fairly and it usually ends up effecting his game negatively. Sometimes he goes off for 43 points and wins the game by himself, but sometimes he goes 8-23 with 21/6/3. He doesn't deal well with uncalled fouls or ticky tack fouls going against him, he lets things like that effect him and get under his skin more than they should, and those things happen more in big games.

He also seems to suffer from a problem most above average/very good players suffer from, but great players learn to deal with. He's better than 9/10 players but he doesn't understand why. He thinks everyone should be able to play as good as him because it comes naturally to him. This adds to his frustration. Players like Michael, Bird and Magic knew they were better than everyone and knew they couldn't expect their teammates to do the same things they did. I think Carmelo understands this in some ways but not the ways that are important to winning. He understands it in the sense that people blow open baskets, make bonehead decisions and mess up things he's capable of doing during a game. He doesn't understand that this **** happens and he should just play his game, roll with it and do what he can to win in the context of the team, instead he overextends himself, forces shots and makes bad decisions with good intentions.

Also, and I'm a little conspiratorial here, but I think the NBA completely picks and chooses it's stars. Some players are obviously better than the standard the league has to offer, but of those stars the league chooses who it's going to groom into the poster boy and I think Carmelo's been pouting every since he realized he's not one of them.

[MarvellousOne]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

I'm going to say no at least no time soon.

[ojandpizza]

Yeah Demi, I think ever since the LeBron vs. Melo rivalry kinda dropped off Melo has somewhat fallen off that "superstar" status.. Not as a player, but as a NBA posterboy or whatever you wanna call it, not as much hype. If you remember back when they were drafted the NBA was trying to push a new Magic vs. Bird, which never panned out.. Neither player had the team to compete at that extent, and now they've left and ended up in the same conference..

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

Players like Michael, Bird and Magic knew they were better than everyone and knew they couldn't expect their teammates to do the same things they did. I think Carmelo understands this in some ways but not the ways that are important to winning. He understands it in the sense that people blow open baskets, make bonehead decisions and mess up things he's capable of doing during a game. He doesn't understand that this **** happens and he should just play his game, roll with it and do what he can to win in the context of the team, instead he overextends himself, forces shots and makes bad decisions with good intentions.

Maybe Bird and Magic, but Jordan is widely recognized as a terrible teammate and a complete dick with unrealistic expectations and a terrible attitude towards his teammates.

[ojandpizza]

Maybe Bird and Magic, but Jordan is widely recognized as a terrible teammate and a complete dick with unrealistic expectations and a terrible attitude towards his teammates.

Well he pushed his teammates to 6 championships.. Maybe that was the best thing for him to do

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

I tweeted this link to Melo. I hope he really takes a look at this this thread, and uses it for motivation.

I also can't believe how some can come here and say that Lebron's post game had nothing to do with him winning a Championship.

Some stated Dallas played Man to man on him, and that is so far from the truth.

Watch this video at the 2:45 mark. You will hear till the end that Dallas played more zone and different zone schemes on Lebron. You will also hear about Lebron's new post game.

Or you can listen to it from the start. Its actually pretty good. There are also longer version if you want to see the whole debate.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hv2jqFd2-qI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[wwharton]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

I tweeted this link to Melo. I hope he really takes a look at this this thread, and uses it for motivation.

I also can't believe how some can come here and say that Lebron's post game had nothing to do with him winning a Championship.

Some stated Dallas played Man to man on him, and that is so far from the truth.

Watch this video at the 2:45 mark. You will hear till the end that Dallas played more zone and different zone schemes on Lebron. You will also hear about Lebron's new post game.

Or you can listen to it from the start. Its actually pretty good. There are also longer version if you want to see the whole debate.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hv2jqFd2-qI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

lol at hoping Melo reads this thread and uses it as motivation.

BTW, nobody said Dallas played man to man. Hell, the entire series thread had people wondering why the Thunder didn't play more zone like Dallas did. Misunderstanding "The Mavs didn't double team" with "Dallas played man to man" seems similar to misunderstanding "Lebron caught the ball in the paint and did more passing out of the post than making moves to score" with "Lebron's improved post game was a huge reason they won the finals".

The break down is in many posts in this thread. Not going to keep beating a dead horse but seems like you glossed over all that.

[mrprice33]

Things I learned in this thread=getting good post position and forcing a double, then making the right pass out of the post does not equal "improved post play" or "being effective in the post."

[wwharton]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

Things I learned in this thread=getting good post position and forcing a double, then making the right pass out of the post does not equal "improved post play" or "being effective in the post."

It doesn't equal "improved post play" when it something he did just fine before, lol. Again, all stated in the posts people seem to want to gloss over to beat this drum.

Lebron has great court vision for his size and passes well period... that includes out of double teams, from the post or otherwise. What we saw last year was that if you don't double team and force him to try to score from posting up (in match ups everyone assumed he'd win against Kidd, Berea and Matrix) he tends to think too much and even appears a bit lost at times. This year he's showed a little improvement there but we don't really know how much bc the Thunder just double teamed him almost every single time.

He didn't have to show an improved post game. The Thunder played to his strength by forcing the ball out of his hand.

It's a long thread, but seriously, if you guys are going to comment on these things at least read what's been posted already. If you disagree at least base it on what was said instead of creating these circles with vague comments or repeat comments that have already been responded to.

[mrprice33]

If he couldn't score in the post he wouldn't be doubled. He established in prior series that he had the ability to play down low as a traditional 4, and there was no way Durant was going to guard him without help, therefore forcing the double, which he then beat with passing (which isn't something every big can do-see Andrew Bynum).

If he wasn't a threat from the post they would have felt comfortable singling him. Obviously they didn't.

So, if he had been a non-threat from the post, or insisting on playing on the perimeter (ala the Dallas series), the defensive situation for OKC would have been much different.

While it was not the *one* thing that changed (and I feel in general LeBron's post play was overblown), it was certainly a primary factor (one of a handful) in the series, the ignoring of which kicked off this whole discussion.

[DemiGodzillla]

Re: Can Melo Get His Ring Next?

Maybe Bird and Magic, but Jordan is widely recognized as a terrible teammate and a complete dick with unrealistic expectations and a terrible attitude towards his teammates.

You're right, I totally botched how I wanted that point to come out. Bird and Magic were more along the lines of getting the best out of everyone on the floor, Michael was closer to the first paragraph I was typing. He may have gotten upset with everyone but it didn't effect his game in a negative manner, he was a master at letting the last play go and focusing on the next one, whether the last play was a positive or a negative.