Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

**Tha_Kid** · 03-22-2004, 06:24 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:
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BigMike said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:
Listen...Captain Hip with your "*****" comments...

A few things here...

1) If you're going to label me a "*****", make sure you point the finger at yourself as a rampant apologist

2) Why do you have to make it about Darko? Let me see.... yeah...I wish my team would have done things differently... Playin' the best ball in the league right now. Likely the only team in the East that can challenge the West. Playing the greatest team defense in NBA history (if you believe in statistics) over the past two weeks. Yeah! I NEED to wish my team did something different. Unlike Denver and Boston fans...we'll be picking up our playoff strips this week.

3) I don't care what the age is. He quit on his team. Someone called him out on being a little big Dog and he pouted! It is NEVER his decision when he does or doesn't play. He REFUSED to return to the game. Soundin' more like Glenn everyday.

<hr /></blockquote>

***** = hip ? ? ? ?

hmmm....I assume the first one was at makaveli so let me start with #2.

Well, darko has had nothing to do with detroit's success this year, or their record setting defense. And with your regularity in taking cheapshots at melo, I really cant think of any other reason for you to hate on him so much. However, you basically said that is not your reason so enlighten me as to why you cant even call the guy by his name.

3. must be to someone else, I never brought up his age. I am still at a loss regarding all of your "little big dog" references.

Lastly, The season ends in April not march. The Celtics have the "easiest" schedule of those involved in the east race, while if Denver wins tonight against the clips, they regain their 8 spot and can add separation when they face utah later this week. We'll see who is in the playoffs. Then again, I dont even know what playoff strips (tickets?) are, so maybe that has nothing to do with who is going to make it.

<hr /></blockquote>
Whatever, Fella.

I've never bashed Melo. I've simply compared his game and stats to Glenn Robinson. You and people like you take that as an insult. That's not my problem.

As far as Darko goes, I've never even thought about attributing any of the Pistons' success to Darko. However, I do attribute part of their success to not picking Melo. I'm of the opinion that if Darko is a bust (which it is WAY to early to tell), the Pistons dropped the ball in not drafting Wade or Bosh. When the Melo hype is over...Lil' Big Dogs are a dime a dozen.

<hr /></blockquote>

Fair enough regarding the bashing, but isnt it too early to label melo a "lil' big dog". Stats and numbers dont make the player. It hasnt even been a whole season.

As far as calling darko a bust, I would never do that. See, everyday I have to defend Kwame Brown, who is NOT a bust and has improven every year. but dont label people after one season. dont label melo lil' big dog. dont label Lebron as the next magic or whoever. guys like Penny should have taught people one thing, and that is dont label people too early.

**Tha_Kid** · 03-22-2004, 06:25 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

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Programmed2Kill said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
BigMike said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
And I'm also sick of seeing people act like the Pistons and their fans are hurting because they don't have Lil' Big Dog instead of Darko.

Doesn't look to me that the Pistons are hurting from it. Stop the madness, please.

<hr /></blockquote>

Noone (at least not me) said that pistons were hurting for not having melo instead of darko. I did however say that fans might be disappointed in the pistons picking darko over melo. I think its common knowledge as far as this season goes, that the pistons would be a better team offensively if they had drafted melo.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not entirely true. Remember who their coach is.

<hr /></blockquote>

I forgot to put "arguably" before better offensive team. You're right though. melo could just as easily be riding the bench for his lack of D.

**Tha_Kid** · 03-22-2004, 06:25 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
BigMike said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
And I'm also sick of seeing people act like the Pistons and their fans are hurting because they don't have Lil' Big Dog instead of Darko.

Doesn't look to me that the Pistons are hurting from it. Stop the madness, please.

<hr /></blockquote>

Noone (at least not me) said that pistons were hurting for not having melo instead of darko. I did however say that fans might be disappointed in the pistons picking darko over melo. I think its common knowledge as far as this season goes, that the pistons would be a better team offensively if they had drafted melo.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not entirely true. Remember who their coach is.

<hr /></blockquote>

I forgot to put "arguably" before better offensive team. You're right though. melo could just as easily be riding the bench for his lack of D.

**Tha_Kid** · 03-22-2004, 06:25 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
BigMike said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
And I'm also sick of seeing people act like the Pistons and their fans are hurting because they don't have Lil' Big Dog instead of Darko.

Doesn't look to me that the Pistons are hurting from it. Stop the madness, please.

<hr /></blockquote>

Noone (at least not me) said that pistons were hurting for not having melo instead of darko. I did however say that fans might be disappointed in the pistons picking darko over melo. I think its common knowledge as far as this season goes, that the pistons would be a better team offensively if they had drafted melo.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not entirely true. Remember who their coach is.

<hr /></blockquote>

I forgot to put "arguably" before better offensive team. You're right though. melo could just as easily be riding the bench for his lack of D.

**bjf1377** · 03-22-2004, 10:13 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

How's this:
- 'Melo apologized for what he realized was a stupid mistake, which is more than can be said for most athletes.
- In a few years, when Darko is playing full time, everybody will be happy; Cleveland w/ LeBron, Denver w/ 'Melo, and Detroit w/ Darko....everyone wins.
- Enough with the 'Melo vs. LeBron vs. Wade vs. Darko vs. whoever else. You can sit here and say that each one is best in something, but in reality, they're all very good players with separate strengths and weaknesses. You will never be able to accurately judge who's the best because they all have different roles and styles.

**bjf1377** · 03-22-2004, 10:13 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

How's this:
- 'Melo apologized for what he realized was a stupid mistake, which is more than can be said for most athletes.
- In a few years, when Darko is playing full time, everybody will be happy; Cleveland w/ LeBron, Denver w/ 'Melo, and Detroit w/ Darko....everyone wins.
- Enough with the 'Melo vs. LeBron vs. Wade vs. Darko vs. whoever else. You can sit here and say that each one is best in something, but in reality, they're all very good players with separate strengths and weaknesses. You will never be able to accurately judge who's the best because they all have different roles and styles.

**bjf1377** · 03-22-2004, 10:13 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

How's this:
- 'Melo apologized for what he realized was a stupid mistake, which is more than can be said for most athletes.
- In a few years, when Darko is playing full time, everybody will be happy; Cleveland w/ LeBron, Denver w/ 'Melo, and Detroit w/ Darko....everyone wins.
- Enough with the 'Melo vs. LeBron vs. Wade vs. Darko vs. whoever else. You can sit here and say that each one is best in something, but in reality, they're all very good players with separate strengths and weaknesses. You will never be able to accurately judge who's the best because they all have different roles and styles.

**bigeastbumrush** · 03-22-2004, 10:31 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:

Whatever, Fella.

I've never bashed Melo. I've simply compared his game and stats to Glenn Robinson. You and people like you take that as an insult. That's not my problem.

As far as Darko goes, I've never even thought about attributing any of the Pistons' success to Darko. However, I do attribute part of their success to not picking Melo. I'm of the opinion that if Darko is a bust (which it is WAY to early to tell), the Pistons dropped the ball in not drafting Wade or Bosh. When the Melo hype is over...Lil' Big Dogs are a dime a dozen.

<hr /></blockquote>

Clay,
Can you explain exactly why you don't like Carmelo?

I'm not looking for a snide joke either, just an explanation. Regardless of how his stats compare to Glenn Robinson or whoever has set foot in the NBA, what exactly about Carmelo don't you like?

**bigeastbumrush** · 03-22-2004, 10:31 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:

Whatever, Fella.

I've never bashed Melo. I've simply compared his game and stats to Glenn Robinson. You and people like you take that as an insult. That's not my problem.

As far as Darko goes, I've never even thought about attributing any of the Pistons' success to Darko. However, I do attribute part of their success to not picking Melo. I'm of the opinion that if Darko is a bust (which it is WAY to early to tell), the Pistons dropped the ball in not drafting Wade or Bosh. When the Melo hype is over...Lil' Big Dogs are a dime a dozen.

<hr /></blockquote>

Clay,
Can you explain exactly why you don't like Carmelo?

I'm not looking for a snide joke either, just an explanation. Regardless of how his stats compare to Glenn Robinson or whoever has set foot in the NBA, what exactly about Carmelo don't you like?

**bigeastbumrush** · 03-22-2004, 10:31 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:

Whatever, Fella.

I've never bashed Melo. I've simply compared his game and stats to Glenn Robinson. You and people like you take that as an insult. That's not my problem.

As far as Darko goes, I've never even thought about attributing any of the Pistons' success to Darko. However, I do attribute part of their success to not picking Melo. I'm of the opinion that if Darko is a bust (which it is WAY to early to tell), the Pistons dropped the ball in not drafting Wade or Bosh. When the Melo hype is over...Lil' Big Dogs are a dime a dozen.

<hr /></blockquote>

Clay,
Can you explain exactly why you don't like Carmelo?

I'm not looking for a snide joke either, just an explanation. Regardless of how his stats compare to Glenn Robinson or whoever has set foot in the NBA, what exactly about Carmelo don't you like?

**HMcCoy** · 03-22-2004, 11:07 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:
Listen...Captain Hip with your "*****" comments...

<hr /></blockquote>

LOL at Clays cute little one-man war on the word "*****"

Me and my buddies were using the word "hype" back in the late 80's, and while you freely use it now, I just bet you were dead set against that silly, immature slang word too.

Back on topic...

The Piston fans will crush him for it and the Melo homers will blow it completely off, but its kinda' right in the middle. Ten years ago a rookie wouldn't DARE diss (err, "disrespect" for Clay...Oh wait you DO use that one

) the main man, but with today's completely disposable head coaches the players can do or say whatever they want. I place more blame on the overall state of player/coach relationships in the NBA than I do on Melo personally. Respect for authority in the league has decreased in direct proportion to the ammount NBA salaries have increased. Guys like AI generate so much cash, the organization is almost forced to bow down. Portland is a good example of how the FANS can and should dictate what type of character their team has. The fans just stopped buying "strips" (Egad, more slang!) and the franchise HAD to listen.

**HMcCoy** · 03-22-2004, 11:07 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:
Listen...Captain Hip with your "*****" comments...

<hr /></blockquote>

LOL at Clays cute little one-man war on the word "*****"

Me and my buddies were using the word "hype" back in the late 80's, and while you freely use it now, I just bet you were dead set against that silly, immature slang word too.

Back on topic...

The Piston fans will crush him for it and the Melo homers will blow it completely off, but its kinda' right in the middle. Ten years ago a rookie wouldn't DARE diss (err, "disrespect" for Clay...Oh wait you DO use that one

) the main man, but with today's completely disposable head coaches the players can do or say whatever they want. I place more blame on the overall state of player/coach relationships in the NBA than I do on Melo personally. Respect for authority in the league has decreased in direct proportion to the ammount NBA salaries have increased. Guys like AI generate so much cash, the organization is almost forced to bow down. Portland is a good example of how the FANS can and should dictate what type of character their team has. The fans just stopped buying "strips" (Egad, more slang!) and the franchise HAD to listen.

**HMcCoy** · 03-22-2004, 11:07 PM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Clay_OS said:
Listen...Captain Hip with your "*****" comments...

<hr /></blockquote>

LOL at Clays cute little one-man war on the word "*****"

Me and my buddies were using the word "hype" back in the late 80's, and while you freely use it now, I just bet you were dead set against that silly, immature slang word too.

Back on topic...

The Piston fans will crush him for it and the Melo homers will blow it completely off, but its kinda' right in the middle. Ten years ago a rookie wouldn't DARE diss (err, "disrespect" for Clay...Oh wait you DO use that one

) the main man, but with today's completely disposable head coaches the players can do or say whatever they want. I place more blame on the overall state of player/coach relationships in the NBA than I do on Melo personally. Respect for authority in the league has decreased in direct proportion to the ammount NBA salaries have increased. Guys like AI generate so much cash, the organization is almost forced to bow down. Portland is a good example of how the FANS can and should dictate what type of character their team has. The fans just stopped buying "strips" (Egad, more slang!) and the franchise HAD to listen.

**OneBadMutha** · 03-23-2004, 05:19 AM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
BigMike said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
And I'm also sick of seeing people act like the Pistons and their fans are hurting because they don't have Lil' Big Dog instead of Darko.

Doesn't look to me that the Pistons are hurting from it. Stop the madness, please.

<hr /></blockquote>

Noone (at least not me) said that pistons were hurting for not having melo instead of darko. I did however say that fans might be disappointed in the pistons picking darko over melo. I think its common knowledge as far as this season goes, that the pistons would be a better team offensively if they had drafted melo.

<hr /></blockquote>

Some people think that if Detroit had Melo they would be a "true" contender. The problem is that they, along with many clueless people in the media, think about building teams in the NBA like you would build up your Fantasy Basketball team. Melo is good for Denver because they were a team with no offensive leaders and needed a go-to guy. In Detroit his role would be completely different and his game wouldn't get the praise it does in Denver. I watched a few games of his (both against Detroit and a couple from the NBA package) and he's got a lot of issues with his game that no one talks about. He's a very good finisher but every other aspect of his game "screams" rookie and his game would hurt Detroit as much as help them right now.

In Denver where nobody plays defense, there's lots of fast break opportunities, and the coach runs the offense through him giving him 20 shots a night -- his pluses outweigh his negatives. Melo gives absolutly no energy on the defensive end. He saves all his energy for offense and often tries cherry picking for the fast break. On the defensive end of the court, there's not one player on Detroit that's worse than Melo -- not one -- not even the clueless (but learning) Darko. On offense, Melo still hasn't learned how to make good decisions. As long as he's allowed to jack it up a will, he's comfortable. When it comes to ball movement, getting teammates involved, and avoiding taking bad shots -- he's still a rookie. His turnover to assist ratio is the worst in the league for perimter players with his minutes.

Also people fail to consider Larry Brown. There's been games this year where he's benched Memo after Memo had 12 or 15 point quarters on good shooting percentages. To him, he doesn't care if you make the shot -- a bad shot is still a bad shot. He's also benched Memo (and other players) for taking too many shots and not sharing the ball. He's reamed Detroit's best offensive players for shooting too much. Then there's the fact that Larry Brown doesn't believe that you should get minutes if you don't know how to play defense (another reason that Memo has gotten benched for the 2nd half even after scoring 15 in the first half). Then there's the fact that he doesn't believe in giving rookies anything. There's no way Melo would be allowed to take more shots than Chauncy, Rip, or Sheed. He also hates perimeter shots unless they are a last resort or unless they come after the ball has gone into the post and is kicked back out for an open look.

When you combine all those factors (and the fact that Larry Brown gives rookies less minutes and a shorter leash than any other coach in the league), it's hard to imagine Melo getting more than 8 shots a game if he was in Detroit. If you don't let him shoot all the time, he no longer is an asset since he doesn't bring too many other attributes to the court. If he's getting killed on defense, turning the ball over through their ball movement system, and he's not taking and making enough shots to make up for it -- I don't see how he'd be such an asset to put Detroit over the top this year.

That's the one nice thing about having Tayshaun Prince. I can't say he's a better player than Melo because he's not the type of guy you can run your offense through. What Tay does is he's a nice complimentary player on offense who can hit the open shot, occasionaly he'll give you a spark and abuse a mismatch, he'll move the ball well without turning it over -- but most importantly he's great for Detroit's defense because in Detroit's system where they trap and their big men guard the lane, his long arms help clog up passing lanes and make it tough for opposing shooters (who are afraid to drive to the hole) shoot.

That's how Basketball works. It's not like playing fantasy basketball or making trades in ESPN Basketball or NBA Live. It's about getting pieces that fit together, compliment each other, and fit the coach's system. Tay fits the system. On the other hand I can see Melo doing a lot of crying and being a distraction while not getting the shots that he's used to. I can see Melo complaining to the media that he shouldn't be coming off the bench (despite not playing any defense) - "for Tayshaun man?"

On the other hand, the reason that Detroit and other Eastern conference teams have problems against the West is because of their size in the paint. Detroit may get a lucky matchup this year and have a shot at winning it all but in the future, with Yao Ming rising to the top and the fact that Duncan will stay at the top, developing Darko may be their best shot at being constant contenders year after year regardless of matchups. Right now Darko is far away because despite having the body to play in the post, he's been a swing man or has played on the perimeter on offense most of his career.

**OneBadMutha** · 03-23-2004, 05:19 AM

Re: Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
BigMike said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Programmed2Kill said:
And I'm also sick of seeing people act like the Pistons and their fans are hurting because they don't have Lil' Big Dog instead of Darko.

Doesn't look to me that the Pistons are hurting from it. Stop the madness, please.

<hr /></blockquote>

Noone (at least not me) said that pistons were hurting for not having melo instead of darko. I did however say that fans might be disappointed in the pistons picking darko over melo. I think its common knowledge as far as this season goes, that the pistons would be a better team offensively if they had drafted melo.

<hr /></blockquote>

Some people think that if Detroit had Melo they would be a "true" contender. The problem is that they, along with many clueless people in the media, think about building teams in the NBA like you would build up your Fantasy Basketball team. Melo is good for Denver because they were a team with no offensive leaders and needed a go-to guy. In Detroit his role would be completely different and his game wouldn't get the praise it does in Denver. I watched a few games of his (both against Detroit and a couple from the NBA package) and he's got a lot of issues with his game that no one talks about. He's a very good finisher but every other aspect of his game "screams" rookie and his game would hurt Detroit as much as help them right now.

In Denver where nobody plays defense, there's lots of fast break opportunities, and the coach runs the offense through him giving him 20 shots a night -- his pluses outweigh his negatives. Melo gives absolutly no energy on the defensive end. He saves all his energy for offense and often tries cherry picking for the fast break. On the defensive end of the court, there's not one player on Detroit that's worse than Melo -- not one -- not even the clueless (but learning) Darko. On offense, Melo still hasn't learned how to make good decisions. As long as he's allowed to jack it up a will, he's comfortable. When it comes to ball movement, getting teammates involved, and avoiding taking bad shots -- he's still a rookie. His turnover to assist ratio is the worst in the league for perimter players with his minutes.

Also people fail to consider Larry Brown. There's been games this year where he's benched Memo after Memo had 12 or 15 point quarters on good shooting percentages. To him, he doesn't care if you make the shot -- a bad shot is still a bad shot. He's also benched Memo (and other players) for taking too many shots and not sharing the ball. He's reamed Detroit's best offensive players for shooting too much. Then there's the fact that Larry Brown doesn't believe that you should get minutes if you don't know how to play defense (another reason that Memo has gotten benched for the 2nd half even after scoring 15 in the first half). Then there's the fact that he doesn't believe in giving rookies anything. There's no way Melo would be allowed to take more shots than Chauncy, Rip, or Sheed. He also hates perimeter shots unless they are a last resort or unless they come after the ball has gone into the post and is kicked back out for an open look.

When you combine all those factors (and the fact that Larry Brown gives rookies less minutes and a shorter leash than any other coach in the league), it's hard to imagine Melo getting more than 8 shots a game if he was in Detroit. If you don't let him shoot all the time, he no longer is an asset since he doesn't bring too many other attributes to the court. If he's getting killed on defense, turning the ball over through their ball movement system, and he's not taking and making enough shots to make up for it -- I don't see how he'd be such an asset to put Detroit over the top this year.

That's the one nice thing about having Tayshaun Prince. I can't say he's a better player than Melo because he's not the type of guy you can run your offense through. What Tay does is he's a nice complimentary player on offense who can hit the open shot, occasionaly he'll give you a spark and abuse a mismatch, he'll move the ball well without turning it over -- but most importantly he's great for Detroit's defense because in Detroit's system where they trap and their big men guard the lane, his long arms help clog up passing lanes and make it tough for opposing shooters (who are afraid to drive to the hole) shoot.

That's how Basketball works. It's not like playing fantasy basketball or making trades in ESPN Basketball or NBA Live. It's about getting pieces that fit together, compliment each other, and fit the coach's system. Tay fits the system. On the other hand I can see Melo doing a lot of crying and being a distraction while not getting the shots that he's used to. I can see Melo complaining to the media that he shouldn't be coming off the bench (despite not playing any defense) - "for Tayshaun man?"

On the other hand, the reason that Detroit and other Eastern conference teams have problems against the West is because of their size in the paint. Detroit may get a lucky matchup this year and have a shot at winning it all but in the future, with Yao Ming rising to the top and the fact that Duncan will stay at the top, developing Darko may be their best shot at being constant contenders year after year regardless of matchups. Right now Darko is far away because despite having the body to play in the post, he's been a swing man or has played on the perimeter on offense most of his career.

Why is no one talking about Carmelo?

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