2014 Off-Season Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

It is the majority of the time. In fact, there was an insider article about it today...it's more often than not.

That said, I dont think the Cav's should rush to trade for Love, but if they do, I think he's a player that is worth the risk...he's a great player...

You got a link to that article I could check out? I think I know which one you're talking about but I'm not 100% sure.

[iLLosophy]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

It's not slander against Love, it's acknowledging Love isn't a perfect fit. What should be obvious from history is when it comes to putting stars together on a roster, 2 + 2 doesn't necessarily equal 4. Sometimes it equals 3. Sometimes it equals 0.

Cavs need a) an efficient scorer, b)a defensive big, but c) don't really need more rebounding.

KLove is a) an efficient scorer, b) NOT a defensive presence, and c) and provides more rebounding they don't need.

So it makes no sense paying the full value for Kevin Love, when they don't need his full value. If Varejao was a Ibaka / Noah defensive type but sucked at rebounding, Kevin Love would be a PERFECT fit and then you could justify paying that high cost for him.

[wwharton]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

I'm posting from a cell phone at work. Sorry I couldn't go into vast detail. I guess lazy sounds a lot more harsh than I'm actually thinking of him, but I think with a little more effort on his part he could have done better than 6 boards a game. That's accounting for offense and defense. What's the system on defense keeping him from doing a little better there? OJ did a great job explaining it. It's easy to call him lazy, it's even easier to look at what he didn't do and just say it was the system, they won 2 championships so it's all good.


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The difference is I'm not saying he didn't do x, y or z bc of the system. I actually think he was great and think he takes way too much Heat. My argument is against him being called lazy and other things of that sort, not to create explanations of why he is whatever people want to call him. He averaged 8 rpg his 1st two years on the Heat, 7 rpg his 2nd two years... 19, 18, 17, 16 in points each year.

As a 3rd option to 2 players who need to dribble the air out of the ball, and someone asked to often play out of position on D I think he played really well in helping them get to 4 straight championships and win 2.

BUT, with all that said, looking at both his numbers and watching the adjustments he had to make to his game just to make it all work, I think they would've been better off splitting his money up and getting better role players to fill their needs. The system had him spending a lot of time doing things that weren't his strengths.

Yeah, the Kevin Love slander is starting to get a little ridiculous if you ask me.

What are examples of this Kevin Love "slander" you all are talking about. Bc I can only assume some of the things I've said are part of it, and that would be ridiculous. OJ saying if we were talking about Dwight Howard or Paul George it would make more sense, is that considered slander too? Because I agree with him 100% but like Love better as a player than both of them. If you all can't understand how that's possible then you just can't understand what we're saying.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

I disagree with the notion that Love doesn't fit because I think a player of that caliber fits anywhere, however, I do understand that side of the argument.

But when we get into the "I wouldn't trade Love for Waiters, Bennett and a 1st" stuff or "Love would average 17 and 7 as a 3rd option" stuff, THAT'S when we've jumped the shark. How much value are you getting out of Waiters on a team with Irving, Wiggins and Lebron? Is he even starting? Someone said Love would be the 3rd option on Cleveland. How? He's significantly better than Irving right now and, in general, bigs > pgs. It's not the Bosh situation because no one on this Cavs team is even close to prime Wade. Plus Bosh developed into an average 3 pt shooter while taking most of his shots wide open. Love is a high volume 3 pt bomber while playing with a hand in his face all of the time. Two totally different players.

As I said earlier, I get the Wiggins debate even though I disagree with it. This other stuff is bizarre to me though.

[cavsfan2]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

The Cavs have had one of the most crazy turnarounds for an NBA franchise. Just six months ago the team was in complete shambles. There were reports that Kyrie and Waiters didnt get along, Kyrie wanted out, Bennett obviously wasnt working, and Mike Brown was their coach.

Granted they have had a lot of help (ok, a suspicious amount of help) but look where they are now. They got the number one pick in a really good draft class which turned into Wiggins, Kyrie signed an extension pretty much the second it was available, they signed a coach from Europe who is supposedly excellent, and they got Lebron!

No matter what happens from here on out I really should just enjoy the ride. My preference is to keep Wiggins but I simply cannot complain because I will never experience a two-three month span like this again in sports.

[redsrule]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Anthony Bennett had an okay summer league and he's already a good player? LMAO the guy had arguably the worst rookie season ever for a #1 pick. Dion Waiters is an average at best shooting guard who doesn't have a good 3 point shot.
If Minnesota offered Love for them 2 + a myriad of picks they should run to the phone to accept that deal.

Andrew Wiggins is a different story, but possibly trading him isn't an awful thing either imo. I feel like Wiggins has a boatload of potential and learning under/next to LeBron would help his career a ton, but there are always growing pains for rookies, especially ones that are not overly good on the offensive side of the ball. Kevin Love is a legitimate star now and would help them win from day one. You can't say the same about Wiggins.

[z Revis]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

If the deal is just Waiters and Bennett and some picks, trade him for Love. If Wiggins has to be included I wouldn't do it. I know he's a rookie, but if he is what everyone says he is he will be an impactful player from day 1 and should improve substantially every year. I know that's banking on a lot, but I'd at least wait to see what Wiggins gives you before dealing him. They could have their own big 3 staring them in the face with Wiggins playing on a rookie contract.

[wwharton]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

I disagree with the notion that Love doesn't fit because I think a player of that caliber fits anywhere, however, I do understand that side of the argument.

But when we get into the "I wouldn't trade Love for Waiters, Bennett and a 1st" stuff or "Love would average 17 and 7 as a 3rd option" stuff, THAT'S when we've jumped the shark. How much value are you getting out of Waiters on a team with Irving, Wiggins and Lebron? Is he even starting? Someone said Love would be the 3rd option on Cleveland. How? He's significantly better than Irving right now and, in general, bigs > pgs. It's not the Bosh situation because no one on this Cavs team is even close to prime Wade. Plus Bosh developed into an average 3 pt shooter while taking most of his shots wide open. Love is a high volume 3 pt bomber while playing with a hand in his face all of the time. Two totally different players.

As I said earlier, I get the Wiggins debate even though I disagree with it. This other stuff is bizarre to me though.

I think you're just reading too much into the other stuff. I can say that specifically about the Bosh talk since I was the one to bring that up. The only point of it was to provide an example of a situation where "name" players don't necessarily show as expected because their skills aren't able to put on display. I posted Bosh's numbers... never said those would be Love's numbers. Just showing the difference between Bosh in Toronto vs Bosh in Miami... and wrapped it all up by saying I'm one of the few that thinks Bosh played GREAT in the big 3.

You can disagree with the idea that Love doesn't fit... but that's really all that explanation was about, no more, no less.

And more importantly, no one is saying the Cavs shouldn't get Love. Some of us are just saying they shouldn't at the price, which you agree with. The "he doesn't really fit" is also relative to the idea of paying Wiggins for him. He doesn't fit ENOUGH to give up Wiggins to get him (if that makes more sense).

Personally I disagree with OJ that CLE shouldn't even trade Weiters, Bennett and a #1 for Love. I think that's a good deal for both sides. But, if I can speak for OJ for a minute, I don't think he'd be putting up too much of a fuss if CLE did that one. The way I took it, his point is even THAT deal isn't a lopsided steal for CLE. It's actually pretty fair (again, all things considered) and I do agree with that.

[redsrule]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

On paper I think it looks like a good move, though 2 lottery picks plus a first for 1 lottery pick looks like a steal for Minny to me.

What does them being lottery picks have to do with anything? Anthony Bennett wouldn't be a top 10 pick if there was a redraft and Waiters would be at the end of the lottery at best. Neither are great players (or good really) and Kevin Love is a top 10 guy in the NBA. The first round pick is probably going to be in the 25-30 range so it doesn't matter. The Cavs are getting the Heat's first rounder next year as well no? That will be a lower pick than the Cavs one so it isn't like it's a huge thing to giveup.
If they theoretically keep Wiggins they really don't need Waiters. Wiggins will be playing the 2 next to LeBron and then Tristan Thompson (who is MUCH better than Bennett is) would be backing up Love at the 4 so it isn't like they are giving up a ton there.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

You got a link to that article I could check out? I think I know which one you're talking about but I'm not 100% sure.

Here you go

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11251473&src=desktop&rand=ref~%7B%22ref%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%22%7D

[turty11]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

im glad i wont be on OS for a week.. the amount of nonsense going on in this thread the past few pages is even too much for me.

im looking @ you...people who wont be named

take care cya next week.

[AC]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

im looking @ you...people who wont be named

Lol, if you're not gonna name them, what's the point of saying that?

[OkayC]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Why should cleveland make a move for love now anyway? shouldn't they just wait till love is a free agent, or at least see if minny is gonna trade love before the deadline once they realize dude ain't staying past this year. It seems like cleveland is trying to win it all in one year. They had a really lucky(and out of charachter) last couple of months. To me its like, don't push your luck.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

I disagree with the notion that Love doesn't fit because I think a player of that caliber fits anywhere, however, I do understand that side of the argument.

But when we get into the "I wouldn't trade Love for Waiters, Bennett and a 1st" stuff or "Love would average 17 and 7 as a 3rd option" stuff, THAT'S when we've jumped the shark. How much value are you getting out of Waiters on a team with Irving, Wiggins and Lebron? Is he even starting? Someone said Love would be the 3rd option on Cleveland. How? He's significantly better than Irving right now and, in general, bigs > pgs. It's not the Bosh situation because no one on this Cavs team is even close to prime Wade. Plus Bosh developed into an average 3 pt shooter while taking most of his shots wide open. Love is a high volume 3 pt bomber while playing with a hand in his face all of the time. Two totally different players.

As I said earlier, I get the Wiggins debate even though I disagree with it. This other stuff is bizarre to me though.

1.) We all agree that Love would fit, he's a great player and he could fit on any team in the league. Nobody is arguing that he doesn't fit. The argument we're making is that even though he fits he doesn't offer what they need improvement in. Therefor ruining your depth for something you don't NEED just seems like a bad move to some of us.

Love would be the 3rd option in Cleveland simply because the ball will always be in Kyrie or LeBron's hands.. That's just how it works. We can all agree he's a better player than Kyrie but that doesn't matter because Kyrie is the PG. And no he isn't the same type of player as Bosh, but less touches = regression, regardless of who you are. That's all we are saying. For what Love would be regressed to they could add for MUCH cheaper and without ruining their depth.

Let's just say for the sake of argument, since all this is hypothetical, that Waiters and Bennett both start next year. And let's just say there is zero improvement from them, and zero regression.. Given starter minutes the two of them combined would average: 31 points, 12 boards, 4.5 assists. In return they get Love: 26/12.5/4..

You're basically trading two players production for one, they're nearly identical.. The difference is you no longer have Wiggins off the bench, and you lose your incoming first round draft picks.. You also then have zero cap flexibility to add other pieces you may need, and Love might leave after the first season to leave you without all 3 players and without your picks..

And that whole scenario is based on Waiters as a 2nd/3rd option last year, and Love as a franchise player.. Their combined production would be much higher if Love was a 2nd/3rd option.

Anthony Bennett had an okay summer league and he's already a good player? LMAO the guy had arguably the worst rookie season ever for a #1 pick. Dion Waiters is an average at best shooting guard who doesn't have a good 3 point shot.


Kevin Love is a legitimate star now and would help them win from day one. You can't say the same about Wiggins.

We literally don't know how either of them will turn out. And nobody here has called Bennett a "good player".

Waiters with starters minutes actually has a better line that everyone's beloved and overrated youngsters Klay Thompson and Bradley Beal. He also shot 37% from 3 last season, compared to Klay's 41%.. Which is only a difference of .4 made shots per 10 shots.. Basically such a small difference that it doesn't even matter. Waiter's 37% is also equal to what KEVIN LOVE shot last year. In fact, in Love's 6 season he's only had 1 year where he has shot the ball from 3 better than Waiters did last year.. But I'm sure that's just a fluke? Since Waiters can't shoot at all from 3, and apparently has zero upside the way everyone here is acting. He must have already hit his ceiling at age 22.

You last point is pretty much my, and anyone else here against the trade's, entire point. Can Kevin Love help them win now? Probably. Can Wiggins help them win now? We don't know. Do either of the make them a sure shot for a championship? Definitely not.. But most importantly, do they even need either of them to win now? NO. So why overspend for something you do no need.

The entire argument is basically "let's go add another star just because we can". Which is ridiculous unless you get him at a bargain. The rumored trades coming from Cleveland's end are the farthest thing from a bargain.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Personally I disagree with OJ that CLE shouldn't even trade Weiters, Bennett and a #1 for Love. I think that's a good deal for both sides. But, if I can speak for OJ for a minute, I don't think he'd be putting up too much of a fuss if CLE did that one. The way I took it, his point is even THAT deal isn't a lopsided steal for CLE. It's actually pretty fair (again, all things considered) and I do agree with that.

That is my point, it's not a steal for Cleveland because everyone here is undervaluing those players.. And I wouldn't be too upset with the trade, but if it was more than 1 extra pick then I think it's overboard.

Like I said though it's only because I don't believe what Love adds them is a huge necessity. If it were Dwight or PG, or someone who offered directly what they needed it would make lots more sense .


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