ESPN Top 100 list

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

AB - or anyone with more ABA knowledge than me. Can I get a brief breakdown on a few guys when you have the time? Maybe throw out a couple comparisons to similar players as well?

Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, George McGinnis, Freddie Lewis, Billy Knight

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

AB - or anyone with more ABA knowledge than me. Can I get a brief breakdown on a few guys when you have the time? Maybe throw out a couple comparisons to similar players as well?

Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, George McGinnis, Freddie Lewis, Billy Knight

Roger Brown was a one on one genius. Could shoot with terrific range and make quick moves to the rim. Would pass if he couldn't locate his own shot. Mediocre on defense. Reliable with ball in his hands and the game on the line.

Mel Daniels was one of the rare dominant big men in the ABA. He was a good shooter from around 15 feet and in. Very active rebounder especially on offense. Could run the floor. Didn't mind playing defense either as he was very physical on that end. Not as big and good but similar to Nate Thurmond.

McGinnis liked to post up or isolate on a wing. He was very strong. He was a great rebounder but worked harder for offensive caroms. He could pass but only as a last resort. Forced a ton of shots. Turnover machine. Poor on defense. Choked in the clutch.

Freddie Lewis was a scoring guard. Tricky penetrator. Deadly shooting off his dribble and with awesome range. Fine passer. Surprisingly effective rebounder. His defense was tough and fundamentally sound.

Billy Knight played a small forward type role. He could overpower smaller players and outmaneuver bigger ones. Good spot shooter from 15-18 feet. Moved well without the ball. Passable passer. OK rebounder. Defense was only average.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Roger Brown was a one on one genius. Could shoot with terrific range and make quick moves to the rim. Would pass if he couldn't locate his own shot. Mediocre on defense. Reliable with ball in his hands and the game on the line.

Mel Daniels was one of the rare dominant big men in the ABA. He was a good shooter from around 15 feet and in. Very active rebounder especially on offense. Could run the floor. Didn't mind playing defense either as he was very physical on that end. Not as big and good but similar to Nate Thurmond.

McGinnis liked to post up or isolate on a wing. He was very strong. He was a great rebounder but worked harder for offensive caroms. He could pass but only as a last resort. Forced a ton of shots. Turnover machine. Poor on defense. Choked in the clutch.

Freddie Lewis was a scoring guard. Tricky penetrator. Deadly shooting off his dribble and with awesome range. Fine passer. Surprisingly effective rebounder. His defense was tough and fundamentally sound.

Billy Knight played a small forward type role. He could overpower smaller players and outmaneuver bigger ones. Good spot shooter from 15-18 feet. Moved well without the ball. Passable passer. OK rebounder. Defense was only average.

Thank you,

Who are some more well known NBA guys that you would compare some of these guys to? Even if it's not in terms of identical play style, maybe just someone who performed at a similar level. Are any of these guys comparable to a player who would make a list like this? Or all well below a top 100.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Thank you,

Who are some more well known NBA guys that you would compare some of these guys to? Even if it's not in terms of identical play style, maybe just someone who performed at a similar level. Are any of these guys comparable to a player who would make a list like this? Or all well below a top 100.

Brown had a lot of moves around the rim and could knock down long balls consistently. He was like a cut-rate version of Elgin Baylor.

Daniels was ferocious in hand to hand combat in the low post and rebounded like a hungry wolf. A smaller version of Nate Thurmond.

McGinnis had all the requisite skills but lacked heart and an understanding of how to play team basketball. A guy like Derrick Coleman would be similar.

Freddie Lewis was a solid all around guard. Not unlike Mike Conley in today's game.

Knight could take his man outside or inside. Liked to run the floor and play around the rim before the opposing bigs could get back in transition. Corliss Williamson might be a solid comparison.

Basically the ABA was like triple A baseball compared to MLB. That is the best comparison I could make. It was a decided step below the NBA.

Mel Daniels would be a candidate to make a top 100 list like this. Artis Gilmore was ranked at number 70 and Daniels held his own against him.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Posting this here because I'm not sure where else something like this would go. This is illustrating all players to average at least 20+ points, and 10+ rebounds per 75 possessions. (Stat only goes from 73-to now)..

I thought it was interesting to see something like this and see how much value there seems to be in big men being able to shoot from the outside and the free-throw line. Which wasn't always the case. You look at just Embiid and Shaq, and Shaq dominates him in FG% due to how unarguable he was inside. FG% there is 58% vs 48%, despite that Embiid nearly closes the gap completely because how his shooting their TS% are close basically 59% to 58%.. Though his game isn't "dominant" in the way Shaq's was, his career is off to one of the best offensive starts in league history for a big, dominant in a modern way.

*** worth noting that Embiid's best season would rank 15th here, Shaq holds 5 of the top 12.. These are sorted by points per 75.***

Shooting ability allows for someone like KAT to score at nearly the same rates as Malone, Hakeem, and Barkley. At least so far, most players tend to score a bit more in their youth and prime, so Hakeem, Barkley, etc are hurt a bit from later years in their careers.

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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Interesting tidbit to add to that. If you were to sort individual seasons rather than career's and sort those seasons by TS%, Charles Barkley holds the top 3 seasons and 4 of the top 5 (Amar'e snuck in a year at 4th)..

No surprise that Barkley shot 75+% from the free-throw line and could occasionally hit a 3 point shot.

Interested in seeing where this goes for big men. Obviously their ability to spread the floor and shoot is doing much more than just creating space, it's allowing them to score more efficiently themselves. Crazy to think Barkley might have peaked as the most efficiently-scoring 20&10 guy the league has had at just 6'6" or so.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Another tidbit, just sorting these again by points but for a single season, Westbrook's triple-double MVP year is top of list.

34 and 11 for him per 75, topping Malone's 31 and 11 from 1990. Obviously lower on the scoring efficiency, but still at a bit over 55% TS%.

What also crazy is that if you change this from 20+points and 10+boards to 20+points and 10+assists Westbrook's season is still at the top at 34 and 11 again. Just topping Harden's 29 and 11 from that same season. That season from him was pretty crazy in more ways than just "OMG triple-double".

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

It is important to keep in mind that Shaq provided a lot of 'hidden numbers'. Whether he made or missed his free throws he could routinely saddle opposing bigs with early and chronic foul trouble. This also allowed hastened the Lakers opportunities as a team to shoot bonus free throws.

Shaq had a way of 'thumping' his man even after missing a close range shot where he was constantly in prime offensive rebounding position or keeping the ball alive. As a baseline screener Shaq's sheer mass could generate great scoring chances.

Embiid has the capability of hitting a three but is in poor position to rebound his miss or draw a foul. He shoots it at about a 30% clip when the NBA's field goal percentage hovers around 45%. So the question becomes how smart of a play is that really?
If Joel's accuracy with the trey ball improves he will have more explosive potential than Shaq did (who rarely scored more than 35 points or so in a game).

Charles Barkley wasn't a good outside shooter but could get hot if he hit an early three. Opposing coaches used to love it when he hit an early one because he wouldn't do as much damage in the paint. He was precisely 6-5 and he was a phenomenal offensive rebounder which made for a ton of easy putbacks.

Remember that in the 80s and 90s defenses were not as used to seeing screen/fades with power forwards and centers shooting from long-range. Those plays are more easily defended today.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Ehh I'm definitely not making a case for Embiid>Shaq by any means, I'm just more so showing that there is a big correlation between how efficiently a big man can score and his ability to have a decent shooting stroke even if it's just from the free-throw line.

Have to remember that 33% from 3 yields the same points per possession as 50% from 2. He's not taking enough from there to be a big +/- either way, but making enough to raise his efficiency a hair still unless we assumed he was scoring a 2 for every time he was missing a 3. And Embiid still draws double digit fouls even if it's not quite Shaq level.

The next step for Embiid would be if he could ever play up around that 36-38 minute mark. Because that's were those per75 numbers are reflecting on. Where is output per game is lower than that, and Shaq is about the same because he could go for 38 a minutes instead of 32. Don't know that Embiid will ever get to that type of conditioning, but if he does and his game keeps improving he should have an excellent career.

I more so just posted that because many people seem to fail to be able to appreciate modern bigs. Maybe not as much now, but when the trend to spread the floor more first started all we ever heard was the "he needs to get his butt in the post".. Where as now it seems that some of these guys are good enough from inside and out that they're just as dominant offensively as great low post scorers were in their own way.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

"he needs to get his butt in the post".. Where as now it seems that some of these guys are good enough from inside and out that they're just as dominant offensively as great low post scorers were in their own way.

The numbers look similar but the impact is much different. Dreadnaught low-post scorers put so much pressure on the rim that they force the defense to bend its shape. Floor-stretchers either make or miss their jumpers. Both styles can be effective.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

The numbers look similar but the impact is much different. Dreadnaught low-post scorers put so much pressure on the rim that they force the defense to bend its shape. Floor-stretchers either make or miss their jumpers. Both styles can be effective.

A player who stretches the floor can also make a defense bend it's shape, just in different ways. They also force mismatches for guards, why the league has so many high ball screens, and they can help open driving lanes that until the last few years teams were figuring out how to close down on with these newer zone-like defenses.

Not that many slow-footed guys playing huge minutes now, but pulling out the slower ones and making them switch, or just getting a shot blocker to commit to leaving the rim, definitely aids in more benefits to your team than just making or missing a jumper.

Especially if a player is effective as a rim runner. Guys getting near max contracts from that alone in today's game. Receiving entry passes all game long with a defender camped behind you is a relatively predictable offense as well. If you can set a good ball screen, make the right roll, and the guard is a capable passer, you're not catching the ball with defenders set on you. You're catching the ball with an opening, with defenders scrambling.

I'm not sure what the exact value would be in a strictly back to the basket scorer in today's game. Would be hard to run the rest of your offense if 1-4 are switching all the screens. The player would almost have to draw double teams.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Screen/pop maneuvers are more easily defensible than ever before. Certainly, forcing a shot-blocker to abandon the rim is beneficial but I was only referring to ball-in-hand implications.

Rim-running isn't a game changer. The very simple counter is to side-step and front them.

Again, defenses are designed to counter frontal assaults on the rim resulting from screen/rolls. This play can be rendered almost useless by good teams.

Truly great back to the basket scorers are virtually extinct now because most of the young bigs have become convinced that 'playing small' is the way to go. Hardly any great big men coaches anymore at the high school, AAU, and college levels.

A bogarting, dominating big man is still the rarest commodity in basketball and has the greatest impact on a game.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

In the general discussion of all time great players, is Chris Paul's career underrated? Post injury he had to change his game a bit, and I know a lot of people dislike some of his on-court antics. But still... What are yalls thoughts on that?

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

In the general discussion of all time great players, is Chris Paul's career underrated? Post injury he had to change his game a bit, and I know a lot of people dislike some of his on-court antics. But still... What are yalls thoughts on that?

Paul is one of the best pure point guards of all time. Always overrated on defense though as he takes too many gambles and can be posted. When he first emerged on the scene I thought he would become a better player than Detroit's ISiah Thomas but this hasn't come to fruition. Hard to lead a team to glory when you stand 5-11.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Paul is one of the best pure point guards of all time. Always overrated on defense though as he takes too many gambles and can be posted. When he first emerged on the scene I thought he would become a better player than Detroit's ISiah Thomas but this hasn't come to fruition. Hard to lead a team to glory when you stand 5-11.

Funny that you mentioned Zeke, he was actually part of the reason I asked the question. I'd like to know, how do you compare the two of them? What made you think CP3 would be better than him, and what has kept that from happening in your eyes?