Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

How in the literal **** is this becoming taken as me saying something negative about MJ to begin with? I said I think his name is bigger now, I gave reasons why I believed that. I never said anything negative about him. As a matter of fact, wouldn't that be the exact opposite. Wouldn't that be a ******* compliment? That he was literally so good that 20+ years later he is still growing? Like what are you even reading into with my posts?

This is the entire point of what I was saying. You can't even mention his name without things like this.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

To answer the OP directly, I actually believe Jordan's name is MUCH bigger now than it ever was as a player. MJ isn't even remembered for the player he was.

He's a tall tale that keeps growing, he's incomparable, an untouchable legend who at this point has grown so large that the representation of him is more of a myth than an athlete. Even if a player "passes" him or is considered better than him, even just at his level, the world will never allow them to be equal/better than something that's already labeled as the GOAT. He's the Muhammad Ali of basketball, the Babe Ruth, the Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, but actually perceived as larger than all of them even combined.

At the time of his retirement it wasn't that way. Sure he was considered by many the best player to ever play the game. But if someone said "Magic was better", "Big O was better", "Bill was better", etc. the opinion/argument was allowed to be had. Now it's not. But by all means compare modern greats to any other former player you want to, just don't dare put their name and MJ's in the same sentence.

Find a LeBron highlight real, what's the first comment "he's not Jordan", same for Kobe, Magic, Bird, Dr J, whoever. People won't even let a great player be a great player because somehow Jordan has to be on his own stage somewhere, he's the only great everyone else can just be really good.

It's to the point that basketball is now the only sport where athletes have regressed rather than progressed forward. Which goes against all common logic and nature of men, sports, technology, machines, everything. 30 years ago Jordan was better than Big O because "players and the game have developed" 30 years later and no we are going backwards somehow.

Arguments made against other players greatness are reversed to favor MJ, players weaknesses are implied to them but ignored or voided for MJ, he's got his own set of standards.

Like I said, it wasn't always like that. It wasn't that way when he retired. It wasn't that way when he was playing. He's become the folk lore of professional athletes. There was a time when I could say Jordan was my idol, my favorite athlete, celebrity, role model, ever. People and media are slowly ruining that for me now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My post that started this MJ discussion. Find where I somehow brought LeBron comparisons into that... Annnnnnd go!

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Well obviously it was rightfully earned. Social media makes everything worse, the over exaggerated everything from ESPN, the dumb fans that "Kobe scored 81 so he's GOAT", stuff like that which we now see daily and have access to makes everything worse from that perspective in this generation.

I just meant in terms of how Jordan was viewed. Not just media and social media bull****. He was gassed up plenty, but he wasn't on his own pedestal where you couldn't even mention his name along the lines of other players. He was recognized by many as likely the greatest to lace them up, which he's deserving of.

He wasn't untouchable though, he was just another great player who was perhaps better than the other great players. Now he's untouchable, I'm not sure another player will ever even be "allowed" to reach his tier, regardless of how great they are. Everyone that's came after, and even some of them before, seem to be degraded based on a special MJ curve.

I'm not hating on it, I'm not saying he isn't deserving of that. I'm just responding to the OP. I think his name now is bigger than what it was when he was actually playing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LeBron? Anndddd go

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

This is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. This quote from an article sums it up much better than I could with my own words:

"See, there are athletes that come along who transcend our previous notions of excellence. Think Willie Mays. Think Jim Brown. Think Babe Ruth. Think Bobby Orr. Think Ben Hogan. Think Sandy Koufax. Think Roger Federer. You can think of your favorites.

These athletes and others like them so surprise and intoxicate us that we cannot imagine ever seeing anyone better. And even while those athletes fade, the intoxication grows. Most people still rank Babe Ruth as the greatest baseball player ever, even though he played a very different game in a very different time and the only thing that’s left of him are a few grainy black and white movies and unreal statistics that mean whatever we want them to mean.

Superior athletes position us in time and place. They make us young again. How could anyone ever seem as great to me as the running back Earl Campbell was? I was just a kid then, so new to the world, and every tackle he broke, every time he pulled away from the grasp of a defender (often losing his jersey in the process), every time he plowed over someone standing up too tall, it was like a little miracle to me. He blew up my mind over and over. Now that I close in on 50 years old, will anyone ever astonish me the way Campbell did? Probably not. No athlete can really compete with my imagination."

Especially for people around my age, who became basketball fanatics by watching MJ. Nothing is ever going to "wow" them the way Jordan could, so in their minds regardless of what anyone else does they can't fathom anyone ever being better than him and won't even listen to a discussion that even hints at someone being at that level.

The last line sums it all up perfectly, everything I've said, you said, this writer said; players aren't competing with just Jordan, it's Jordan and whatever version their imagination has propelled him to. Like you said people don't remember anything negative. You watch a game now and it's "LeBron missed a game winner, oh Jordan would never do that", "did he just walk? Did he sell contact there?, that's no MJ". Hell even when their is no discussion of MJ being made. I have guys at work who come into the office and will literally say "did you see that last night, Jordan wouldn't have done that", that's what it's become.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Annnndddd Go

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

What the hell is going on here? You're saying things that are patently untrue. You say he wasn't untouchable when he retired? We've already proven that false by the accolades he was given immediately at the end of the 20th century. I know you're not a baseball fan, but he was voted in 1999 the most popular North American Athlete of the 20th century, OVER BABE ****ING RUTH. Babe Ruth is an American icon man. For a contemporary athlete to be named over him and Muhammad Ali, bruh a bear couldn't touch Jordan if he was covered in honey.

Too much of this argument is you disliking the cult of Jordan. But he earned it. And it was there when I was a kid, so it's not new. The difference as has been said is the access to opinions of randoms.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I'm not arguing his popularity though. Obviously he was more "popular" then than now. There is a whole generation of fans now that never even saw him play, likely couldn't pick him out of a line of 50 bald men. What athlete becomes more popular 20 years after he's quit playing?

Fun fact, I went to a nursing home to see my grandma. I was probably in highschool or JR high at the time. Some lady asked me if I was Michael Jordan, this only lady probably at least 80. I was a 6foot tall white kid lol.. That's how popular he was, this old lady knew nothing at that point in her life, she knew who MJ was.. Well sorta lol.

But like I already said once, I obviously cannot put what is in my head to keyboard well enough for it to be comprehended the way I wanted it to. So moving on I suppose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

OJ, you gotta learn the multi-quote button and spoiler tags, man. Please.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

OJ, you gotta learn the multi-quote button and spoiler tags, man. Please.

Yeah that's my bad. It's not that convenient on a phone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I'm not arguing his popularity though. Obviously he was more "popular" then than now. There is a whole generation of fans now that never even saw him play, likely couldn't pick him out of a line of 50 bald men. What athlete becomes more popular 20 years after he's quit playing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I assume you're saying what athlete has their legacy grow after they retire because you already said he was more popular then than now.

On that note ask a random person on the street who the GOAT baseball player is and they'll probably say "Oh, I'm not really a baseball fan. I guess that Babe guy."

The answer is great ones. Like someone else said, there's people who think Ali never lost a fight. This isn't Jordan specific.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I assume you're saying what athlete has their legacy grow after they retire because you already said he was more popular then than now.

On that note ask a random person on the street who the GOAT baseball player is and they'll probably say "Oh, I'm not really a baseball fan. I guess that Babe guy."

The answer is great ones. Like someone else said, there's people who think Ali never lost a fight. This isn't Jordan specific.

I actually compared it to Ali, Babe, in my first post. I understand that it's not solely him this just happens to be a basketball forum with the topic on a basketball player. I do think it's still larger with MJ though, maybe it's because I follow basketball much more than other sports. (namely baseball, I don't enjoy baseball).

And yes, I'm more so referencing his legacy in comparison to all the greats. Not his general street popularity or his fandom. At the time he was playing/retiring he was recognized as the best to ever play. Hell I thought he was the best to ever play before the whole "6 rings" were there. But the point of what I'm wanting to say is that I feel that then he was looked at as a great basketball player who mostly recognized as better than the other great basketball players.

Somewhere along the way it's gotten farther and farther from that. Hell I knew people who actually made arguments that Pippen was comparable because he was "more complete" though I'm from Arkansas (Pippen is from Arkansas) so I'm sure there was bias. My uncle didn't believe Jordan was better than Bill Russell, didn't think his offensive dominance was nearly up to par with Wilt, thought Big O was the best guard ever. You still heard people who would take Magic, take Kareem, even a few who obviously had to love afros or the AAB say Dr. J was just as good (Shaq still kinda does). Hell fans, former players, coaches when Kobe was young they would "well if he gets that 6th or 7th ring"..

My point is Jordan isn't really looked at as a great basketball player anymore, you can't really compare him with other players and it be a fair open topic like you could then. It's more so "how dare you even mention their names together".. I just feel as his name, legacy, whatever you want to call it is like sitting up on a shelf by itself and all the other greats were taken down and now are in a box in the floor, but you aren't allowed to take them out of the box now and move them to the shelf. Weird analogy, I know but I guess it's hard to explain.

On the reverse, sure Ali is recognized as the greatest, Ruth as the greatest, Joe Montana for QB's.. the difference to me is that you can have that discussion. You can make points about other players, you can mention other greats. If there is a stat posted of Brady or Manning next to Montana showing how great they both are you don't have a million people bashing Brady/Peyton the way whoever would sit next to Jordan would be. You can actually have a creditable, factual even, discussion with MJ and another player and it's treated as if you're saying some forbidden word, yelling **** in church or something.

To me, it wasn't like that when he was playing. If some of you want to say it was, fine. We didn't all live in the same city, around the same fans, talking to the same people. I didn't hear/see that constantly then the way I do now. That's what I'm getting at. And I'm not sure what I'm saying to make it seem as if I'm saying it's not earned. I'm not bashing MJ, I'm simply saying that aspect of him seems to get larger as time goes by (why is that viewed as a bad thing anyways).

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I don't know what other sports you're a fan of so I can't give better examples, but it's just clear he isn't unique in his persona growing. Babe is the best example, the Called Shot and beers and hot dogs, he's essentially baseball Paul Bunyan. Mickey Mantle supposedly hit homers 600 feet. Maybe it's because basketball is just younger, baseball has a ton of these guys. Look up Satchel Paige, stories make him sound like Jesus had a third coming and didn't tell anyone.

Also, Ali is a funny example because he isn't considered the greatest by most legit fans, Sugar Ray Robinson is. So that kind of proves that point, you got "Jordaned" by Ali hype. It's not unique, like you said you just pay more attention to basketball.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I wasn't talking about in this thread specifically OJ. I'm talking about this Jordan/LeBron thing in general with you over the years. This is always how this happens. You always find some way to devalue other players to pump up LeBron. The fact we're even having this discussion about people "not letting somebody be better" than Jordan and you just spent the last two years in your feelings about people even putting Steph Curry in the same conversation as LeBron as the best player in the league right now makes this current topic even more ridiculous.

The reason you can't talk about Jordan and whoever is because it's been done to death since Jordan was playing. Remember Baby Jordan? Vince Carter was the next Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, etc. A lot of it is people resisting ESPN's need to put these dudes up against each other. They won't just let LeBron be LeBron, they have to put his stats up against Jordan after everything, they have to compare Kobe every chance they get so when they fail in spots where Jordan didn't, people are vocal about throwing it back in their faces and the faces of the people who seem to be frothing at the mouth to pronounce these guys the best prematurely. It's not like these players don't have glaring shortcomings that allows Jordan to be put ahead of them. You're acting like they're neck and neck and people are simply throwing canyons between them just because they can't possibly allow someone to be better than Jordan. Much like you do with anybody put on LeBron's level now mind you

[wwharton]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

My original post that garnered so much attention didn't even have LeBron's name in it, didn't have anything about him in it. I'm not even the one who brought up LeBron to begin with. Pack responded with "How y'all gonna let this slide tho?" A couple pages after my post and it took from there.

And you know I'm not lumping him with Kobe and AI. You've been around long enough to see how highly I think of Jordan and lowly of Kobe compared to many. Not labeling him a chunker at all.

Y'all can tell me to pump the breaks about whatever you want, I'm on the same page as you anyways in calling MJ the GOAT. I haven't claimed otherwise here, but if someone says something that I disagree with I'll post my position. Just as you are right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't say you introduced the Lebron talk, I said you were leading the charge... which is what you've been doing more and more lately. It's like his name is a bat signal for you, lol. YOU'VE been here long enough (and expressed your opinion on the topic enough) to say to yourself "another LBJ vs MJ comparison, lets just keep it moving" but you can't help yourself. And unfortunately, your posts are venturing farther away from giving Lebron his props while still allowing Jordan his separately. They're now reduced to "I think MJ is the GOAT... BUT" followed by explaining how great Lebron is, how unfair it is that people don't even give him a chance at reaching GOAT at some point, etc, etc, etc.

And yeah, all that crap you said about Jordan is ridiculous, lol. You mention what happens outside of OS... so why start a back and forth on OS as if you're talking to those people if you realize it's different here? In the same sense, why grab a quote from an article you think is trash. The quote being in that article alone makes it lose credibility. Things like this are why King is saying you do everything you can to pump up LBJ.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

That dude is lost. Only thing I can think of man.

"Jordan's legend got bigger AFTER he retired". Maybe in small town Arkansas, that's probably what ya'll believe. And if that's the case, then you need to leave and enter the real world, lol.

My point is Jordan isn't really looked at as a great basketball player anymore

There you go still being naive again.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I wasn't talking about in this thread specifically OJ. I'm talking about this Jordan/LeBron thing in general with you over the years. This is always how this happens. You always find some way to devalue other players to pump up LeBron. The fact we're even having this discussion about people "not letting somebody be better" than Jordan and you just spent the last two years in your feelings about people even putting Steph Curry in the same conversation as LeBron as the best player in the league right now makes this current topic even more ridiculous.

The reason you can't talk about Jordan and whoever is because it's been done to death since Jordan was playing. Remember Baby Jordan? Vince Carter was the next Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, etc. A lot of it is people resisting ESPN's need to put these dudes up against each other. They won't just let LeBron be LeBron, they have to put his stats up against Jordan after everything, they have to compare Kobe every chance they get so when they fail in spots where Jordan didn't, people are vocal about throwing it back in their faces and the faces of the people who seem to be frothing at the mouth to pronounce these guys the best prematurely. It's not like these players don't have glaring shortcomings that allows Jordan to be put ahead of them. You're acting like they're neck and neck and people are simply throwing canyons between them just because they can't possibly allow someone to be better than Jordan. Much like you do with anybody put on LeBron's level now mind you

Prematurely giving those props is always an ESPN issue, always has been. We know that for sure King. From giving Curry GOAT comparisons for 1 years worth of work, to Kobe getting handed the throne well before we even saw if he could be the head guy on a team, much less the best in the league, or even an MVP winner. That's their forte. Premature HOF status for every small thing.

Saying Vince out of college had a shot to be the best, or LeBron in highschool had a shot to be the best, that's not really anything crazy to say. Vince came into the league with a similar play as Jordan, to pair it with better handles and outside shot. LeBron at 18 was one of the most well rounded athletes we had seen, with the offensive IQ of a seasoned vet.

13 years later LeBron had indeed separated himself from the pack the way no players outside of Kareem and MJ have. To me it's easy to see why those 3 were ranked 1-3 on that top 100 list that dropped. But then again I've said its those 3 in my top tier for awhile now.

LeBron will never have the impact on the sport the way Jordan did, he can't be 6/6 in the finals, he likely won't retire on a championship winning last shot. There are reasons Jordan is GOAT, he transcended the game as a player, face of the league, you can't measure his impact or compare it to really any athlete in any sport.

But actual on court performance, he's there IMO, just as Kareem was, all in their own different ways. They've dominated the playoffs individually the way nobody else has each in their own ways, their stats are superior for their positions, example Jordan to Kobe LeBron to Bird, they are number 1 and 2 for career PER, plus/minus, value over replacement player, for the playoffs they are 1 and 3 for PER, 1 and 2 for plus/minus, 1 and 2 for value over replacement player, 1 and 2 in MVP award shares.. In nearly everything that you can measure them by, impact wise, they are 1st and 2nd for regular season and playoffs and separated by less than a point on pretty much all of them. They are clearly ahead of everyone else in nearly every way that you can measure it.

I mean there is a reason that LeBron is compared to him as a player. Just because I agree with that and disagree when someone else is (given they actually don't have anything to back like LeBron it mind you) it makes me have some false bias?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk