12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

[3304Life]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

They’ve still been good so it hasn’t been spoken about a whole lot but Steph is in a slump and other than his broken hand season a couple years ago he’s having comfortably his worst shooting season, although 43% from the field and 39% from 3 still isn’t terrible for a 6’2 guard.

His recent performances, including 9 points the other night and shooting 5-24 tonight aren’t completely isolated incidents though. I don’t think he’s one of the MVP front runners at this point.


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[JazzMan]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

Jokic can’t handle Utah Small ball, he’ll be a liability in the playoffs. Denver needs to trade him and cut their losses /s

[ojandpizza]

12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

They’ve still been good so it hasn’t been spoken about a whole lot but Steph is in a slump and other than his broken hand season a couple years ago he’s having comfortably his worst shooting season, although 43% from the field and 39% from 3 still isn’t terrible for a 6’2 guard.

His recent performances, including 9 points the other night and shooting 5-24 tonight aren’t completely isolated incidents though. I don’t think he’s one of the MVP front runners at this point.


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Spoiler

Steph is just always the ultimate “I don’t know how to place him” type of player for me.. whether that’s the MVP talk, his all time ranking, whatever. There just seems to be two ways you can view him but they can get pretty far apart. It’s difficult. Similar to Scottie Pippen in a sense. Some just consider him a glorified side kick who wouldn’t have done much without MJ, some think he was the best all around player in the league who should have won MVP when MJ left. Steph doesn’t hit those type of lows obviously, but I do feel like there is a similar degree of polar opposites for him as well.

He obviously builds a strong MVP case by being the best scorer on the best team, that team is built around what he does, it works in large part because even in these 5-24 shooting games he creates so much defensive attention that everyone else thrives. Most nights. His efficiency in terms of TS% is still pretty high, so most will overlook his FG%. If it’s even considered to begin with, it wasn’t a factor in guys Russ or Rose winning obviously. He is healthy, always plays hard, always gives effort on defense, etc.. And obviously his good games are going to outshine the bad. Wrong or right he’s the media favorite, he’s the most fun to watch, that sways votes in large every year, him breaking the 3 point record has already outshined when guys like Durant, Jokic, Bron have been doing and in all fairness to Steph they’ve been much better “all around” for whatever that is even worth at this point. So I do still see scenarios where he is the favorite in the eyes of many even if I don’t necessarily agree with that, and I wouldn’t really say it would be largely “undeserving” for lack of a better word like I felt the D Rose vote was either.

The argument against for me would be that while Steph is the engine that makes them run, his gravity does add value that can’t be measured in stats alone.. but my problem with that is it’s not the ONLY thing that creates that value, maybe not even the largest, he’s just awarded all the credit. His off ball movement does create opportunities, but if Golden State’s offense, movement of other players, their passing, all of that wasn’t also working in hand with that it wouldn’t really matter. It’s hard to explain in words but they have a willingness as a team to forego getting the ball to their best player in order to make a play elsewhere. Like they are the only team in the league who’s best passer isn’t a high usage player, and they are willing to use him to make plays that most teams would not.

Trying to explain in text but most teams wouldn’t pass up getting the ball to their star to throw a dime of a pass to their back cutting 9th option in a close 4th quarter.. like AD wouldn’t throw a pin point perfect pass to a cutting Kent Bazemore just because it was maybe open for a split second instead of hanging on to the ball a bit longer to run an action with LeBron. He wouldn’t even look for that play, Bazemore likely wouldn’t even look for the cut. Harden wouldn’t make the pass to a cutting Bembry if he knows KD is coming for the ball a second later. The list goes on.

It’s something that I’ve felt torn on really ever since Golden State really took off. On one hand Steph is what makes them great, you see the videos about “Steph created an extra 30 points with his gravity and defensive attention” and you watch the clip and it’s like I get what they are saying but he’s not “creating” all those plays. He’s aiding in them, but their awareness, the cut, the pass, the finish, and just a general willingness to not get the ball to their best player, all of that plays just as equal of a role. It’s hard for me to grasp just how much of all that is sole credit to Steph, because without all of that he’s just a guy running around and that “gravity” would be greatly diminished. I know he’s the best off ball mover in the game, but in a hypothetical sense pretending that someone else was equal in that regard, I don’t have the confidence that team would still make all the plays off that movement like Golden State does. I don’t think if you traded Steph elsewhere that all of a sudden that new team would transform into what they’ve made.

It’s important that Steph can still thrive in that environment, he doesn’t quite need to play Houston Harden-ball to be just as effective, and that creates so much opportunity for his teammates, but at the same time if the team isn’t doing all that other stuff, playing great defense, everything else then how good is he really making them? If a team is in perfect unison, has no flaws, then Steph is likely propelling them to instant contender status. But on a highly flawed team, I don’t know that he’s really going to raise the floor nearly as much as some other guys.. and honestly the expectation of that has never even been placed on him. He’s not been nearly as dominant in the playoffs as the regular season (yet at least) and nobody cares, if you look at last season many wanted him to be MVP despite not even making the playoffs. Guys like LeBron, KD, that would never happen for them. Hell KD had some saying “well he ain’t Bron” because he didn’t win it all last year with Kyrie out, Harden banged up, and Joe Harris forgetting how to shoot. And we know all the Bron criticisms without even mentioning it. I think, even if it’s on a subconscious level, even the biggest Curry homers aren’t holding him anywhere near the standards of these other top 10 level guys when they are calling him a top 10 level guy. It’s a very weird, unique, situation where he’s become so much of an outlier in what he does and how he does it that it’s incredibly hard to measure him against others.

I’m not trying to hate on Steph in saying any of that, it’s just something I’ve always had trouble trying to decide for myself even. Last season with them not being nearly as good with a worse roster kinda got me thinking on it a bit more, and then to start this year plenty of times I’ve seen Poole in place of Steph and that system work nearly just as well in those spurts, which made me think even more, and then I saw Ben Taylor’s video crediting Steph for “creating” like 40 straight points or something and I noticed that while yes the defense did overreact to his movement that Draymond dropping an absolute dime to Otto Porter had just as much to do with that shot. Like not every team is generating those plays every time their best player draws some extra defensive attention. So just the accumulation of everything just has me pretty much perpetually torn both directions with Steph.

Like I get arguments for people claiming he’s MVP but also get the ones who say he’s not, I get the arguments saying he’s a top 10 AT level player and arguments that claim he’s not close yet, I get arguments calling him the best PG ever and I get the arguments that think that’s ridiculous. I get the argument for him being one of the greatest scorers ever and I get the arguments from those who think he’s too one dimensional for that. You know he’s just one of those rare types who doesn’t convince me enough in either direction. The certainties I do have without a doubt are he’s the best shooter I’ve ever seen, and he’s had more impact on changing how the game is played than anybody in the history of the league.

And I know nobody asked for any of this I just got caught thinking out loud. Also will spoiler the “essay” for Pack lol.

[JazzMan]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

Spoiler

Steph is just always the ultimate “I don’t know how to place him” type of player for me.. whether that’s the MVP talk, his all time ranking, whatever. There just seems to be two ways you can view him but they can get pretty far apart. It’s difficult. Similar to Scottie Pippen in a sense. Some just consider him a glorified side kick who wouldn’t have done much without MJ, some think he was the best all around player in the league who should have won MVP when MJ left. Steph doesn’t hit those type of lows obviously, but I do feel like there is a similar degree of polar opposites for him as well.

He obviously builds a strong MVP case by being the best scorer on the best team, that team is built around what he does, it works in large part because even in these 5-24 shooting games he creates so much defensive attention that everyone else thrives. Most nights. His efficiency in terms of TS% is still pretty high, so most will overlook his FG%. If it’s even considered to begin with, it wasn’t a factor in guys Russ or Rose winning obviously. He is healthy, always plays hard, always gives effort on defense, etc.. And obviously his good games are going to outshine the bad. Wrong or right he’s the media favorite, he’s the most fun to watch, that sways votes in large every year, him breaking the 3 point record has already outshined when guys like Durant, Jokic, Bron have been doing and in all fairness to Steph they’ve been much better “all around” for whatever that is even worth at this point. So I do still see scenarios where he is the favorite in the eyes of many even if I don’t necessarily agree with that, and I wouldn’t really say it would be largely “undeserving” for lack of a better word like I felt the D Rose vote was either.

The argument against for me would be that while Steph is the engine that makes them run, his gravity does add value that can’t be measured in stats alone.. but my problem with that is it’s not the ONLY thing that creates that value, maybe not even the largest, he’s just awarded all the credit. His off ball movement does create opportunities, but if Golden State’s offense, movement of other players, their passing, all of that wasn’t also working in hand with that it wouldn’t really matter. It’s hard to explain in words but they have a willingness as a team to forego getting the ball to their best player in order to make a play elsewhere. Like they are the only team in the league who’s best passer isn’t a high usage player, and they are willing to use him to make plays that most teams would not.

Trying to explain in text but most teams wouldn’t pass up getting the ball to their star to throw a dime of a pass to their back cutting 9th option in a close 4th quarter.. like AD wouldn’t throw a pin point perfect pass to a cutting Kent Bazemore just because it was maybe open for a split second instead of hanging on to the ball a bit longer to run an action with LeBron. He wouldn’t even look for that play, Bazemore likely wouldn’t even look for the cut. Harden wouldn’t make the pass to a cutting Bembry if he knows KD is coming for the ball a second later. The list goes on.

It’s something that I’ve felt torn on really ever since Golden State really took off. On one hand Steph is what makes them great, you see the videos about “Steph created an extra 30 points with his gravity and defensive attention” and you watch the clip and it’s like I get what they are saying but he’s not “creating” all those plays. He’s aiding in them, but their awareness, the cut, the pass, the finish, and just a general willingness to not get the ball to their best player, all of that plays just as equal of a role. It’s hard for me to grasp just how much of all that is sole credit to Steph, because without all of that he’s just a guy running around and that “gravity” would be greatly diminished. I know he’s the best off ball mover in the game, but in a hypothetical sense pretending that someone else was equal in that regard, I don’t have the confidence that team would still make all the plays off that movement like Golden State does. I don’t think if you traded Steph elsewhere that all of a sudden that new team would transform into what they’ve made.

It’s important that Steph can still thrive in that environment, he doesn’t quite need to play Houston Harden-ball to be just as effective, and that creates so much opportunity for his teammates, but at the same time if the team isn’t doing all that other stuff, playing great defense, everything else then how good is he really making them? If a team is in perfect unison, has no flaws, then Steph is likely propelling them to instant contender status. But on a highly flawed team, I don’t know that he’s really going to raise the floor nearly as much as some other guys.. and honestly the expectation of that has never even been placed on him. He’s not been nearly as dominant in the playoffs as the regular season (yet at least) and nobody cares, if you look at last season many wanted him to be MVP despite not even making the playoffs. Guys like LeBron, KD, that would never happen for them. Hell KD had some saying “well he ain’t Bron” because he didn’t win it all last year with Kyrie out, Harden banged up, and Joe Harris forgetting how to shoot. And we know all the Bron criticisms without even mentioning it. I think, even if it’s on a subconscious level, even the biggest Curry homers aren’t holding him anywhere near the standards of these other top 10 level guys when they are calling him a top 10 level guy. It’s a very weird, unique, situation where he’s become so much of an outlier in what he does and how he does it that it’s incredibly hard to measure him against others.

I’m not trying to hate on Steph in saying any of that, it’s just something I’ve always had trouble trying to decide for myself even. Last season with them not being nearly as good with a worse roster kinda got me thinking on it a bit more, and then to start this year plenty of times I’ve seen Poole in place of Steph and that system work nearly just as well in those spurts, which made me think even more, and then I saw Ben Taylor’s video crediting Steph for “creating” like 40 straight points or something and I noticed that while yes the defense did overreact to his movement that Draymond dropping an absolute dime to Otto Porter had just as much to do with that shot. Like not every team is generating those plays every time their best player draws some extra defensive attention. So just the accumulation of everything just has me pretty much perpetually torn both directions with Steph.

Like I get arguments for people claiming he’s MVP but also get the ones who say he’s not, I get the arguments saying he’s a top 10 AT level player and arguments that claim he’s not close yet, I get arguments calling him the best PG ever and I get the arguments that think that’s ridiculous. I get the argument for him being one of the greatest scorers ever and I get the arguments from those who think he’s too one dimensional for that. You know he’s just one of those rare types who doesn’t convince me enough in either direction. The certainties I do have without a doubt are he’s the best shooter I’ve ever seen, and he’s had more impact on changing how the game is played than anybody in the history of the league.

And I know nobody asked for any of this I just got caught thinking out loud. Also will spoiler the “essay” for Pack lol.

I didn't read it, but I like the effort

[3304Life]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

Haha I always like reading OJ’s essays but I need to mentally prepare myself first.

In other news, the Wizards announcers made a HUGE error last night after KPJ’s shot, saying he ‘like his dad, pulled the trigger at just the right time’, probably assuming that he’s the son of the former Bullets guard Kevin Porter. The problem is that KPJ’s dad actually served time for manslaughter for accidentally shooting a woman.


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[jfsolo]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

Trying to explain in text but most teams wouldn’t pass up getting the ball to their star to throw a dime of a pass to their back cutting 9th option in a close 4th quarter.. like AD wouldn’t throw a pin point perfect pass to a cutting Kent Bazemore just because it was maybe open for a split second instead of hanging on to the ball a bit longer to run an action with LeBron. He wouldn’t even look for that play, Bazemore likely wouldn’t even look for the cut. Harden wouldn’t make the pass to a cutting Bembry if he knows KD is coming for the ball a second later. The list goes on.

If the above is true, and it very well may be, then for me that is a scathing indictment and sad reality for any and all teams and players who wouldn't do this because that is the quintessential example of "playing the right way".

Steph's shooting lets him get all the accolades, but his size allows him to escape the the level of scrutiny that other all time greats face, it's a cushy status level if you can get it.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

If the above is true, and it very well may be, then for me that is a scathing indictment and sad reality for any and all teams and players who wouldn't do this because that is the quintessential example of "playing the right way".

I don't think I've ever watched a team, at least one with a player of that magnitude, do it to the degree Golden State does though. I'm not suggesting that all other teams just avoid "playing the right way" altogether, I'm just saying that in crunch time you don't typically have the ball in your not best players hand and him making high-risk plays for what would be your say 9th best player rather than getting the ball to the star.

Even teams like the 90s Bulls who had great movement with the triangle, how often would you see late in a 4th quarter setting someone like Dennis drop a pass between 2-3 guys to a cutting Jason Caffey during a set play designed to get the ball to MJ. It's just incredibly rare what they do in the context of comparing it to any other team I've watched. I feel like Golden State just does that with so much regularity that they often feel like an anomaly.

[jeebs9]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

Anyone see this play last night? How are you defending this?

https://twitter.com/stevejones20/status/1478924693654675456?t=Ev3p_XPmRVqu_syHa5CoBQ&s=19

That's a lot of screens to negotiate. Only because they happen so quickly and so close to each other. It's kind of hard to see any other out come [emoji23]

[jeebs9]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

Also defensive they looked better once Lance cooled off.

https://twitter.com/stevejones20/status/1478924202875015173?t=zjw0UoV1hcYKiqSZvFNv5A&s=19

https://twitter.com/stevejones20/status/1478923933722234880?t=1FAQbeaY48nxvyqWh9JLzw&s=19

[3304Life]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

As I’m seeing guys like IT and Joe Johnson get covid contracts I’m wondering why nobody has picked up Quinn Cook.

I’m biased because dude actually gave me a reason to watch the Charge but he’s been a good bench guy in the NBA. I kinda wish the Cavs would get him back after waiving him this season.


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[King_B_Mack]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

We have now come full circle. Patient zero, Rudy Gobert has entered the health and safety protocols after producing a positive PCR test.


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[Majingir]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

We have now come full circle. Patient zero, Rudy Gobert has entered the health and safety protocols after producing a positive PCR test.


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Full circle indeed.

The team they're facing tomorrow..the Raptors.

The same team the Jazz were about to play when Gobert decided to end the world during the pregame interview.

[3304Life]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

So this is the end, right? Rudy catching it again was COVID’s final boss and it’s completed the game now and can **** off?


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[Majingir]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

So this is the end, right? Rudy catching it again was COVID’s final boss and it’s completed the game now and can **** off?


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Or we're replaying the game on a different difficulty.

Hopefully this was the game on hard mode.

[JazzMan]

Re: 12/29 - 1/10 Games Discussion Thread

We have now come full circle. Patient zero, Rudy Gobert has entered the health and safety protocols after producing a positive PCR test.


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666 days later

Sp00ky

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