The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

[SHAKYR]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

This is not really a big deal, and I'm not trying to cause strife but you guys are killin me saying real live boxers have sim styles lol.

Mayweather, tyson, whoever absolutely cannot have a sim style because they are real people lol.

Simulation basically means "imitating something that is real", ya know, simulating reality. Tyson cant simulate reality, he IS reality. He doesn't have a sim style, its just HIS style. Now..... video games try to imitate or in other words video games try to simulate HIS style. See what I'm saying?

I know exactly what you are saying. This is basically what I have been saying. I'm saying for instance if you look at a game like NBA 2K11 it had every player's styles and tendencies. This game is called the best sports sim in history.

[CX1329]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

This is not really a big deal, and I'm not trying to cause strife but you guys are killin me saying real live boxers have sim styles lol.

Mayweather, tyson, whoever absolutely cannot have a sim style because they are real people lol.

Simulation basically means "imitating something that is real", ya know, simulating reality. Tyson cant simulate reality, he IS reality. He doesn't have a sim style, its just HIS style. Now..... video games try to imitate or in other words video games try to simulate HIS style. See what I'm saying?

It's like saying the real life Mavs play sim basketball and the real life Heat play arcade, or that the NBA All Star Weekend games aren't sim because of the absurdly high scores.

[SHAKYR]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

Many of you are jumping over my point. The game doesn't duplicate real-life boxer's movements, stamina,fatigue and other basic boxing things.

Many of these things can be done, but it's has more to do with the producer's time and vision for this game. Many of the things we said wasn't possible last year and the year before that the producers did but not detailed or tested well.

[gravity62]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

I just because you don't like a game doesn't make it a "failure".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH0F6p3awmw

Find a boxing game better and I'll say you've made your point. I don't go online, so maybe that's why I have a better opinion of this game. Madden gets commercials, so does NBA 2k. How do you expect Fight Night to be as much success as those games without commercial support? 'Word of mouth' over the internet? There's so much heat about this game over the net that it's hard to give EA respect for the things they've done right. But it's funny, everybody I talked to in person likes FNC. Even champion mode was tight to me.

They tried to make two modes like VB2 but everybody complains about it. Certain things I can see people complaining about, like the cost of DLC and the tunners, but I can't see FNC being much better in only two years. Some of you guys should be more reasonable. Remember complaining so much about Kudo being a bad producer? now some of ya'll wanna go 'back in the day' and play Round 3 and 4 over FNC? Maybe I don't get it.

[DaveDQ]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

This is not really a big deal, and I'm not trying to cause strife but you guys are killin me saying real live boxers have sim styles lol.

Mayweather, tyson, whoever absolutely cannot have a sim style because they are real people lol.

Simulation basically means "imitating something that is real", ya know, simulating reality. Tyson cant simulate reality, he IS reality. He doesn't have a sim style, its just HIS style. Now..... video games try to imitate or in other words video games try to simulate HIS style. See what I'm saying?

I see your point and understand what you mean. I agree. You don't look at a guy and say, "Wow, he's a sim athlete, whereas that other guy is casual." I was just responding to some that would say Tyson wasn't true to the sport and would argue he very much was just had some personal hang ups. So yes..lol...you wouldn't say he was a sim boxer. but he was a boxer.

[ajns]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

This is not really a big deal, and I'm not trying to cause strife but you guys are killin me saying real live boxers have sim styles lol.

Mayweather, tyson, whoever absolutely cannot have a sim style because they are real people lol.

Simulation basically means "imitating something that is real", ya know, simulating reality. Tyson cant simulate reality, he IS reality. He doesn't have a sim style, its just HIS style. Now..... video games try to imitate or in other words video games try to simulate HIS style. See what I'm saying?

I hate to keep rehashing this, but I really can't stand people talking past one another. The original comment was made to address the notion that somehow, boxing like Muhammad Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard was the true measure of a boxing game getting sim right. That is, if the game allowed you to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee or flurry at the end of rounds to steal them (or insert your favorite version of online spam here) regardless of who you were fighting, then you had what could be called a great boxing sim.

The OP was simply pointing out that sim does not mean this. It means creating an environment and boxers that can use ANY style (Like Tyson, Norton, Hamed, Pacquiao, and on ad nauseum.) and the game and fighters will behave realistically. You can't call yourself a true sim if one type of fighting is rewarded unrealistically over another. Look at any division over the history of boxing and you will find champions and great fighters that are defensive whizzes, sluggers, boxer/punchers, technical geniuses, etc. Again, the OP was simply trying to say you can't pick one type of fighter and judge the entire game based on whether that type of fighter behaves realistically. They all have to behave realistically.

This leads me to a point that has been made other places and other times, but bears on this discussion. The devs SEEM to think the way to approach this game is to rig the gameplay to achieve a desired result instead of creating the environment and then tweaking that environment until it produces realistic physical results. One example is 1 punch KOs. Instead of making them random for all fighters, they should only be available to fighters with an extremely high strength and punch level and only for that punch. That is one small example. Another that gets a lot of type time is misses. This was part of reducing overall connect percentage as was requested by many. Instead of finding a way (if one even exists) of creating accuracy issues in realistic situations (falling back, after a bad miss, when actually being hit) the devs created a tuner that makes some punches that clearly SHOULD land, miss. The result is the desired lower connect percentage, but the means are awful. If you think about it long an hard enough, this approach to making the game yield better numbers actually drives it away from being sim further and further because the probability system they are using is actually taking the action out of the hands of the user and giving control to the numbers. You can't get true sim operating this way. If this is what the game is going to be then let us all just send away for Strat-o-matic boxing (if one exists) and roll the dice and read the little cards. Not that I didn't love Strat-o-matic baseball as a kid, nor was it unrealistic. However, the Strat-o-matic approach to a boxing video game just will not work.

[gravity62]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

I hear you ajns. I was just simply stating in so many words that we should give the devs a break. It's only been two years with them working on FN. It'll just keep getting better if we support it. Look at the following NBA 2K gets every year, they listen to thier fans and look at the overall... We can do the same with FN, but it's a process that could take a few iterations. All I'm saying is that we should support FN if you want it to be made and be great. Because it's definately something that HAS to be made.

[ajns]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

I hear you ajns. I was just simply stating in so many words that we should give the devs a break. It's only been two years with them working on FN. It'll just keep getting better if we support it. Look at the following NBA 2K gets every year, they listen to thier fans and look at the overall... We can do the same with FN, but it's a process that could take a few iterations. All I'm saying is that we should support FN if you want it to be made and be great. Because it's definately something that HAS to be made.

I am all for giving the devs a break. I know boxing. I don't know coding or what is possible as far what can be done with regard to crafting this game. What I also know is what the devs have done so far. So let's look at that (and this is by no means exhaustive, just a snap shot to show wjhat I think is going in the right direction and what scares me.):

1) Realistic damage and blood. Huge step foward and makes playing without seeing your opponent's bars so much easier.

2) Champion mode. Another plus. Nice to get a storyline mode in there that appeals to the more casual gamer. And, to be honest I liked playing it as well. Definitely room for that in the series and lots of potential for development.

3) 1 punch KOs are definitely welcome, but like I said they need to be fixed.

4) Overall presentation is better but could use more work to get it where it should be.

5) New tuner/title update structure to make it easier to deal with smaller issues without going through lengthy approval process. Although, again, this needs work.

That's the good.

Here's what scares me:

1) Purchased experience packs. Really? So boxing is about Ivan Drago and not about Mickey Ward? Interesting.

2) Attention paid to every complaint made by every 12-year old about why their version of spam should be rewarded online.

3) Seeming lack of attention paid to the fact that "fixing" online gaming broke Legacy offline (Unresponsive sliders, no swelling or blood at all, unrealistic punch offsetting, unrealistic misses based on probability not reality). Not only does this make offline players feel like they don't count in the eyes of the devs, but even scarier to me as far as the franchise goes: They haven't figured out that they need separate environments for online and offline so that tweaking one doesn't effect the other. And this seems to be the case even though they have been saying for years that the sliders for online will work separately for on and offline. So they recognize the importance, they just haven't found a way to implement it yet. Again, I don't know if this is limitation of the technology or not, but this has been talked about since FN4. And of course my usual point about online offline concerning the actual need for online and how much EA loses without an online IF the rest of the offline game works flawlessly.

4) The devs seem to be in panic mode at this point at least on this version embodied by their reliance on rigging gameplay instead of fixing the underlying issues. Again, I am not a coder, so I do not know what nuts and bolts need to be tightened, changed, or scrapped. Which, leads me to the final point...

5) Dev communication. I know this a new phenomenon and most other games get little or no input from the devs after a game is released. However, if EA and the devs of this game want to use the ability to tune and patch games that is new to the PS3/XBOX 360 systems then the trade-off is being accountable to the people that are playing the game. I don't mind paying to be a beta tester for a few months if there is communication and movement. In the absence of that communication (It has been since 5/19 since any "official" word has come from EA or Brizzo's team), we are left to wonder and play a broken game or just sit and watch it collect dust hoping there will be a patch that fixes things. That situation is just unacceptable. Ship a game that is not broken and don't say a word to me or listen to any complaints I have, OR ship a game you know may have some issues but can be tweaked through the patch/tuner system and let me help you fix it. You can't have it both ways.

I'll wrap this up by saying I am incredibly interested seeing FNC succeed as a boxing fan and I have been extremely patient and defended the devs on many occasions. However, I am getting to the end of even my lengthy rope. We are talking about 3 months of trying to get this right. And I wouldn't care about the time, if once a week, Brizzo popped his head out and said, "Here's where we are." I know that isn't going to happen much over at EA's forum(See my post in this forum on that subject if you need an explanation), however if anyone has access to Brizzo, please try to convince him to post something here for the less rabid on the internet to let us know just what is going on behind the curtain.

[Hova57]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

I think in this instance for this game, coming on here to get input would have been better to the dev than EA site. I've read some comments on there from players who called themselves or people thought of being straight fighter , really being spammers and cheesers. To have people like Poetic and Phoba who actually care and experience in the ring to almost be put to the side is saddening.

As for the topic, I believe that a couple important aspects of boxing was left out of this game. #1 being footwork, boxers had no bounce, escapability, or strategy to the fights, you couldn't create angles . #2 for me being inside game clinching, shoulder to shoulder shoving and punching took alot of the game. Styles of the fighters are big, but once again most fighters style goes back to their footwork and how they moved around the ring. In boxing I don't believe there is a sim style of play. In boxing you either fight or throw a bunch a punches hoping to land. the later is what I think current boxing games are. I think there is alot more to boxing thanwhat is in any edition of FN.

[Kanobi]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

I hear you ajns. I was just simply stating in so many words that we should give the devs a break. It's only been two years with them working on FN. It'll just keep getting better if we support it. Look at the following NBA 2K gets every year, they listen to thier fans and look at the overall... We can do the same with FN, but it's a process that could take a few iterations. All I'm saying is that we should support FN if you want it to be made and be great. Because it's definately something that HAS to be made.

Diff company with 2k. There remains a certain air of arrogance with EA's higher-ups that I feel will always hinder their games, especially FN, and prevent them from reaching an NBA2k11 level of polish/near-perfection.

[DeceptiveBlaze]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

Honestly you guys are missing one of the main reasons why fnr4 sold so well and why you cant compare the sells of nba 2k11 to champion. That reason is the legend factor. Someone said round 4 sold well cause it was the first to use the 360 graphics to the fullest but that was actually fnr3 not round 4. Fight night round 4 sold well because people heard mike tyson was in it. Mike tyson hadnt been in a real boxing game since Punch Out so a lot of people who wouldnt have otherwise bought it did and the same goes for nba 2k11 with the return of mj. Mike tyson and Michael Jordan were two of the most influential figures in the 90's which are these games demographic. My dad even went out and got a 360 so him and his boys could relive their youth and box as tyson.

Truth is poetic is right about what killed this game. Bugs glitches exploiters and Isaac Frost killed this game lol.

[Money99]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

Diff company with 2k. There remains a certain air of arrogance with EA's higher-ups that I feel will always hinder their games, especially FN, and prevent them from reaching an NBA2k11 level of polish/near-perfection.

Can't remember the name, but one of the lead producers for the NBA2K series left for EA's Elite.
He went back to 2K after a year (maybe 2?) and said that EA had a far more controlling environment, while Take-Two allowed more freedom.

NBA2K11 could be the best sports game ever made. Imagine having a boxing game like that?
Press Conferences, top-notch presentation, deep career mode,...I'd be in Heaven.

[KOV]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

Can't remember the name, but one of the lead producers for the NBA2K series left for EA's Elite.
He went back to 2K after a year (maybe 2?) and said that EA had a far more controlling environment, while Take-Two allowed more freedom.

NBA2K11 could be the best sports game ever made. Imagine having a boxing game like that?
Press Conferences, top-notch presentation, deep career mode,...I'd be in Heaven.

That would explain why 2k games have more style and flair than EA. It sounds like 2k let's the workers work democratic style while EA micromanages autocratic style. Tell ya right now, autocratic leadership breeds discontent and makes your employees not wanna be at work.

[KOV]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

1. EA= autocratic
2. 2k= democratic

Extremely different leadership styles. You can tell the difference in the games drastically.

[JayBee74]

Re: The producers are blaming boxing for this game failure

1. EA= autocratic
2. 2k= democratic

Extremely different leadership styles. You can tell the difference in the games drastically.

Yeah, but 2K dropped the ball with a sloppy Prizefighter (actually could have been a really good game) and not staying around a little more with their football games. Yeah, I know, no NFL but they could have scrapped the retired players and gone totally generic to cut costs.