Boxing Off-Topic

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

If GGG finds an opponent are they still going to try to push on with PPV?

[pk500]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

This fight will be rescheduled on Mexican Independence Day in early September. Canelo's suspension will be shortened to six months from the date of the first positive test in February, which will let the fight take place on the first Saturday of September.

If anything, Canelo's camp is happy about the delay, as the 36-year-old Golovkin will be that much older.

Don't dry the crocodile tears from Canelo and his camp. They'll still get their pay day and will get the rematch with Golovkin with six more months of age and probably a tune-up behind Golovkin.

This falls right into Canelo's plan.

[pk500]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Whatever your opinion is, the bottom line is Canelo Alvarez is now a fighter who has had a positive test for PEDs. In any sport that's not a good thing, but in a sport where you can potentially injure or kill your opponent, it's a scarlet letter that takes a long time to go away (if it ever does). All the Golden Boy spin and Ring Magazine apologists in the world can't help that now. Since Canelo's entire career has been one big exercise in opponent and image management, I would say that it's unlikely his star ever really fully recovers from this.

Is a positive drug test really a scarlet letter in boxing? I don't think so.

Shane Mosley was nailed for PEDs, and his career didn't suffer that much. He still got big-money PPV fights against Pacquiao and Mayweather. His standing didn't suffer much with the fans, maybe because he came clean and admitted to his PED use, something Canelo NEVER will do.

Alexander Povetkin has been busted for drugs numerous times yet continued to get fights. Luis Ortiz was nailed twice, served a suspension and then was given an immediate title shot.

Boxing is the best sport on Earth. It's also the most poorly run sport on Earth, with no international governing body or mandated drug testing system. People within the sport and its fans have to expect cheating and corruption, so we're all pretty unfazed when it happens.

There is no shame culture in boxing. It's accepted that you will do whatever is possible to gain a financial or physical edge, with few negative consequences.

I think you're applying the rules of shame in stick-and-ball team sports to boxing. That simply doesn't equate.

[N51_rob]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

This fight will be rescheduled on Mexican Independence Day in early September. Canelo's suspension will be shortened to six months from the date of the first positive test in February, which will let the fight take place on the first Saturday of September.

If anything, Canelo's camp is happy about the delay, as the 36-year-old Golovkin will be that much older.

Don't dry the crocodile tears from Canelo and his camp. They'll still get their pay day and will get the rematch with Golovkin with six more months of age and probably a tune-up behind Golovkin.

This falls right into Canelo's plan.

I hope GGGs team goes full on heel, with crazy purse demands, getting to pick 2 of 3 judges all kinds of silly **** just to further paint the Golden Boy team in a bad light.

[pietasterp]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Is a positive drug test really a scarlet letter in boxing? I don't think so.

Shane Mosley was nailed for PEDs, and his career didn't suffer that much. He still got big-money PPV fights against Pacquiao and Mayweather. His standing didn't suffer much with the fans, maybe because he came clean and admitted to his PED use, something Canelo NEVER will do.

Alexander Povetkin has been busted for drugs numerous times yet continued to get fights. Luis Ortiz was nailed twice, served a suspension and then was given an immediate title shot.

Boxing is the best sport on Earth. It's also the most poorly run sport on Earth, with no international governing body or mandated drug testing system. People within the sport and its fans have to expect cheating and corruption, so we're all pretty unfazed when it happens.

There is no shame culture in boxing. It's accepted that you will do whatever is possible to gain a financial or physical edge, with few negative consequences.

I think you're applying the rules of shame in stick-and-ball team sports to boxing. That simply doesn't equate.

I agree that the shame is not what it should be, but I would note that most of the time anyone discusses any of the careers above, the PED issue does come up (I mean we're talking about it right now). At least it gets mentioned whenever their careers are discussed, and with regard to Mosely, it's hard to determine what effect it may have hypothetically had on his career because (as far as I know) he never tested positive but only admitted to PED use after the fight(s) in which it allegedly occurred (as part of the whole BALCO discovery). It may have had more significant consequences if it had been a positive test pre-fight, but regardless, your broader point does stand.

I completely agree that it's not as career-altering as it is in other sports, and certainly not as much as it should be, as you are rightly criticizing.

I think the outcome of their fight demanded a rematch, although I thought GGG deserved the decision.

As for the tainted meat defense I just don't know one way or the other. I do know that I would eat Lucky Charms or baked potatoes, etc. to avoid consuming tainted meat.

I eat Lucky Charms and baked potatoes even when I'm not trying to avoid consuming tainted meat. I think it's just good policy.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I hope GGGs team goes full on heel, with crazy purse demands, getting to pick 2 of 3 judges all kinds of silly **** just to further paint the Golden Boy team in a bad light.

That would be frickin awesome.
GGG doesn't owe Canelo anything. He won the first fight in decisive manor and now Yellow test for PEDs. He needs that fight so badly right now. There isn't another fight out there that will help his image.

But as pk500 pointed out, this actually works in favour for Yellow.
He's in his prime while GGG is only getting older.

P.S. Let's not forget that Yellow tested positive twice.

P.S.S. I love BJ Saunders response to Alvarez:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ac6iDt5wg

Those two picks together look damming. I'm sure that one was taken prior to being weighed, but you never know.
I'm sure most pro fighters have the inside scoop so I wouldn't be surprised if BJ knew something the rest of us don't.

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Is a positive drug test really a scarlet letter in boxing? I don't think so.

Shane Mosley was nailed for PEDs, and his career didn't suffer that much. He still got big-money PPV fights against Pacquiao and Mayweather. His standing didn't suffer much with the fans, maybe because he came clean and admitted to his PED use, something Canelo NEVER will do.

Alexander Povetkin has been busted for drugs numerous times yet continued to get fights. Luis Ortiz was nailed twice, served a suspension and then was given an immediate title shot.

Boxing is the best sport on Earth. It's also the most poorly run sport on Earth, with no international governing body or mandated drug testing system. People within the sport and its fans have to expect cheating and corruption, so we're all pretty unfazed when it happens.

There is no shame culture in boxing. It's accepted that you will do whatever is possible to gain a financial or physical edge, with few negative consequences.

I think you're applying the rules of shame in stick-and-ball team sports to boxing. That simply doesn't equate.

I agree to an extent but in retrospect while some of the boxers you mentioned might not have been hit in the pocket substantially it can be argued that they weren't the same fighters after they were caught..Mosley in particular had a noticeable decline in skills when he stopped the juice..his career started sinking to gatekeeper name status after he was caught..I am also a firm believer that Ortiz has been juicing for years and it's no coincidence that he didn't have the power , stamina, or chin to take out Wilder. I suspect if he was on juice he would have dispatched Wilder, also his last fight before he fought Wilder was painful to watch he was slow and had lost some snap in his punches..Povetkin will get annihilated when he faces someone decent I still think he is juicing but will have to get off the more notable and scrutinized his fights become..Canelo can deny all he wants but that juice helped him to compete against a better fighter..The danger of taking roids in boxing is that it provides a clear advantage which can get someone hurt..It's more rampant than anyone can imagine some get caught some will never get caught..It will never be completely eliminated.

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

That would be frickin awesome.
GGG doesn't owe Canelo anything. He won the first fight in decisive manor and now Yellow test for PEDs. He needs that fight so badly right now. There isn't another fight out there that will help his image.

But as pk500 pointed out, this actually works in favour for Yellow.
He's in his prime while GGG is only getting older.

P.S. Let's not forget that Yellow tested positive twice.

P.S.S. I love BJ Saunders response to Alvarez:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ac6iDt5wg

Those two picks together look damming. I'm sure that one was taken prior to being weighed, but you never know.
I'm sure most pro fighters have the inside scoop so I wouldn't be surprised if BJ knew something the rest of us don't.

In actuality it doesn't work for Canelo..GGG is get an opponent on the 5th that won't present a problem which will keep him active..What I suspect will happen with Canelo in light of the fact that he is juicing is that his body now has to get used to performing without extra testosterone and it takes about 2 months for your body to restore to it's natural testosterone levels..he also now has to fight without any advantage in speed stamina or power..so in essence he is fighting naturally when he couldn't beat GGG with steroids..We will all be amazed how somehow Canelo can't take GGG punch during the rematch and how tired he gets..he has natural speed but his power will take a hit. All the talk of trace amounts of clenbuterol in meats is nonsense and was a convenient excuse for Canelo. The boxing commission has to know more than the public and for him to test positive twice is a red flag..how long this has been going on ?..I assume in between the Mayweather and GG fight..

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Mosley in particular had a noticeable decline in skills when he stopped the juice..his career started sinking to gatekeeper name status after he was caught..

Yeah, but how do you know for sure when Mosley started and stopped juicing? The official record indicates he only used it in preparation for his second fight against Oscar De La Hoya in September of 2003, a bout that many thought Oscar had won. Here are Mosley's fights before and after that bout:

Nov 20-2004 Ronald "Winky" Wright lost majority decision
Mar 13-2004 Ronald "Winky" Wright lost unanimous decision
Sep 13-2003 Oscar De La Hoya won unanimous decision
Feb 08-2003 Raul Marquez No Contest
Jul 20-2002 Vernon Forrest lost unanimous decision
Jan 26-2002 Vernon Forrest lost unanimous decision

So was he back on the roids in 2006 when he had two impressive KOs over Fernando Vargas? Keep in mind Shane admitted to the 2003 "enhancement performers" in 2007 as part of the infamous BALCO scandal investigations.

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Yeah, but how do you know for sure when Mosley started and stopped juicing? The official record indicates he only used it in preparation for his second fight against Oscar De La Hoya in September of 2003, a bout that many thought Oscar had won. Here are Mosley's fights before and after that bout:

Nov 20-2004 Ronald "Winky" Wright lost majority decision
Mar 13-2004 Ronald "Winky" Wright lost unanimous decision
Sep 13-2003 Oscar De La Hoya won unanimous decision
Feb 08-2003 Raul Marquez No Contest
Jul 20-2002 Vernon Forrest lost unanimous decision
Jan 26-2002 Vernon Forrest lost unanimous decision

So was he back on the roids in 2006 when he had two impressive KOs over Fernando Vargas? Keep in mind Shane admitted to the 2003 "enhancement performers" in 2007 as part of the infamous BALCO scandal investigations.

This proves my point look at his record and his power output during this stretch..Not only that he got noticeably slower and did not have quite the reflexes he previously had..keep in mind when he admitted or got caught is usually the precursor to when he actually did them.. The Fernando Vargas was also a caught juicer who only survived for as long as he did against Delahoya due to steroid use...he was never the same either and by the time Mosley fought him he was a shell of himself..The problem with juicing again goes back to having to restore your body to natural testosterone levels and then having to compete at that level..as stated it's more prevalent than even we know..

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

This proves my point look at his record and his power output during this stretch..Not only that he got noticeably slower and did not have quite the reflexes he previously had..keep in mind when he admitted or got caught is usually the precursor to when he actually did them.. The Fernando Vargas was also a caught juicer who only survived for as long as he did against Delahoya due to steroid use...he was never the same either and by the time Mosley fought him he was a shell of himself..The problem with juicing again goes back to having to restore your body to natural testosterone levels and then having to compete at that level..as stated it's more prevalent than even we know..

Yeah, but what period of time are you contending that he began using and stopped using? Nobody knows. He never tested positive and only admitted to "unknowingly" using when he had purchased products not on the banned substance list from BALCO owner Victor Conte in preparation for the second Oscar fight.



EDIT: As to his power output Mosley was obliterating guys at 135 but not so much later in his career at 147 and 154.

EDIT 2: LOL, maybe I'm overanalyzing this.

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Alexander Povetkin has been busted for drugs numerous times yet continued to get fights. Luis Ortiz was nailed twice, served a suspension and then was given an immediate title shot.

And the WBA has ordered Joshua to fight him. Sure he's the mandatory but they didn't waste any time.

EDIT: Strange comments by Deontay Wilder about wanting to kill someone in the ring ("I want a body"). He has since apologized but what are you thinking Deontay?

[pietasterp]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Conclusion: boxing is (and always has been) a corrupt and barely legitimate 'sport'.

Every fight fan I know has a love/hate relationship to the sport. I would have thought I'd be completely "out" on boxing some time ago, but then every once in a while some fight comes from out of nowhere that I didn't expect and reminds me why I sit through so many crap cards.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I agree to an extent but in retrospect while some of the boxers you mentioned might not have been hit in the pocket substantially it can be argued that they weren't the same fighters after they were caught..Mosley in particular had a noticeable decline in skills when he stopped the juice..his career started sinking to gatekeeper name status after he was caught..I am also a firm believer that Ortiz has been juicing for years and it's no coincidence that he didn't have the power , stamina, or chin to take out Wilder. I suspect if he was on juice he would have dispatched Wilder, also his last fight before he fought Wilder was painful to watch he was slow and had lost some snap in his punches..Povetkin will get annihilated when he faces someone decent I still think he is juicing but will have to get off the more notable and scrutinized his fights become..Canelo can deny all he wants but that juice helped him to compete against a better fighter..The danger of taking roids in boxing is that it provides a clear advantage which can get someone hurt..It's more rampant than anyone can imagine some get caught some will never get caught..It will never be completely eliminated.

Absolutely.
But not only that, because the sport loathes anything other than a '0' by the L column, it can completely derail a career.

The problem with boxing is they don't take PED abuse seriously enough.
Ortiz was caught twice and still fought for the title. Now I'm hearing Potvikin - another PED head - is going to be announced as the mandatory challenger to Joshua.

These cheaters should get a minimum 1-year suspension for using steroids.
The 2nd time, it's 2 years. The 3rd, it's a lifetime ban.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Yeah, but what period of time are you contending that he began using and stopped using? Nobody knows. He never tested positive and only admitted to "unknowingly" using when he had purchased products not on the banned substance list from BALCO owner Victor Conte in preparation for the second Oscar fight.



EDIT: As to his power output Mosley was obliterating guys at 135 but not so much later in his career at 147 and 154.

EDIT 2: LOL, maybe I'm overanalyzing this.

Mosely claimed he was benching over 300 lbs and squatting 500 as a welterweight.
I think this was around the first DLH fight.

I wonder if he was juicing his whole career?
Didn't seem to bother Vernon Forest though.

As edaddy said, I think it's a lot more prevalent in boxing than most (including me) want to admit.
I knew a guy who was juicing while competing as an amateur and he said it's more than just the added strength, but wind and injury recovery as well.
He claimed to take a drug that allowed him to run 15miles without much effort. Prior to that, he struggled to run 5 miles.
He also said all the bruises, soreness and fatigue was a non-factor once he started using.

But I'd like to hear what Evan Fields has to say about all of this.