NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Despite the odd username, I can confirm this is indeed Brizzo.

I forwarded him and our gameplay producers this thread after I read it this morning.

I made some corrections about SA coefficient and strikes crushing, so please send them the last edited version.
Also, during future discussions and adjustments here i will add new info to my 1st post or make some corrections. so the 1st post in this thread will be always the most complicated and actual.
GPD if your team will have any questions this is always welcome to find the answers within our community.
Again, imho now the only one major issue exist in EA UFC - the stand up striking mechanics. New stand up striking in future EA UFC 3 alone will be a kill feature (must have)! Striking change must to be your main priority for UFC 3 as i think.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I made some corrections about SA coefficient and strikes crushing, so please send them the last edited version.
Also, during future discussions and adjustments here i will add new info to my 1st post or make some corrections. so the 1st post in this thread will be always the most complicated and actual.
GPD if your team will have any questions this is always welcome to find the answers within our community.
Again, imho the now the only one major issue exist in EA UFC - the stand up striking mechanics. New stand up striking in future EA UFC 3 alone will be a kill feature (must have)! Striking change must to be your main priority for UFC 3 as i think.

I'm really busy the next couple of days, but I do think there are some interesting discussions that could come out of this post.

I'll bring them up when I get the chance.

[Lung444]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Great job going into so much detail, but dude this game just came out and your already talking about the next one! Is UFC going to be a yearly thing like Madden or sporadically like it has been? If yearly then this post doesn't bother me as much, but if it's 2 years from the next one, then they need to fix UFC 2 with some of your ideas.

[hooleyblah]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I was a bit skeptical at first lol, I thought brizzo had a different username here for some reason.

So did I. :/

[johnmangala]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Great detailed thread hope this gets looked into. The advanced basics in eaufc2 is pretty high level anyway, this takes it further.

I hope shift, switch, step through strikes make a revamped return too

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Great job going into so much detail, but dude this game just came out and your already talking about the next one! Is UFC going to be a yearly thing like Madden or sporadically like it has been? If yearly then this post doesn't bother me as much, but if it's 2 years from the next one, then they need to fix UFC 2 with some of your ideas.

1. As i know a develop process of the next game usually begins soon after prev game release. At least in dev plan and graphics, they decided what they need to do for the next game and how to do it in time.
So as the striking is still the most complaining element in EA UFC i think this thread was created in right time.
2. As i said devs can to _test and tune_ some feature of new mechanics and try to implement it by patch in EA UFC 2 if they wish.
- for example evolve striking intercept based on final striking damage (#3 - Crushing).
- try in implement difference in startup speed for the same strike types between short and long reach fighters to bring more balance between them and make the gameplay more diverse/various and deep (#5 Short vs Reach fighters balance).

[aholbert32]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Great job going into so much detail, but dude this game just came out and your already talking about the next one! Is UFC going to be a yearly thing like Madden or sporadically like it has been? If yearly then this post doesn't bother me as much, but if it's 2 years from the next one, then they need to fix UFC 2 with some of your ideas.

This is actually the perfect time for Sugata to suggest this for the next game even if its 2 years away. If the devs were to implement this it would give them plenty of time to implement, test and add on to this system.

[Bigg Cee]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

SUGATA how do you know this much? You must of worked for someone in this field before and is looking for a job. lol J/K

[fishingtime]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

SUGATA how do you know this much? You must of worked for someone in this field before and is looking for a job. lol J/K

Nah, guys that get into these arcade fighters really get into it if they are competitive. I was worried the striking would be too arcade with two Game Changers constantly bringing those games up.

However, they still need aspects from it for striking. My main concern isn't with the striking, but what it does. In terms of hit reactions, we need those to be randomized or toned down so you aren't seeing a lot of the combos we see now. This isn't an arcade fighter, so combos having the same effect over and over is what makes it feel arcade. If you randomize the hit reactions, and make some actually knock you out of range, then you don't have the arcade feel of the same combo doing the same thing every time. That doesn't happen in MMA. That to me is what makes the stand up feel arcade. Not so much the combo multiplier which does effect these, but the actual hit reactions. Those are the problem in my opinion.

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

SUGATA how do you know this much? You must of worked for someone in this field before and is looking for a job. lol J/K

Now after i retired from russian GRU i am looking for a job as a Game Changer here, comrade

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Nah, guys that get into these arcade fighters really get into it if they are competitive. I was worried the striking would be too arcade with two Game Changers constantly bringing those games up.

However, they still need aspects from it for striking. My main concern isn't with the striking, but what it does. In terms of hit reactions, we need those to be randomized or toned down so you aren't seeing a lot of the combos we see now. This isn't an arcade fighter, so combos having the same effect over and over is what makes it feel arcade. If you randomize the hit reactions, and make some actually knock you out of range, then you don't have the arcade feel of the same combo doing the same thing every time. That doesn't happen in MMA. That to me is what makes the stand up feel arcade. Not so much the combo multiplier which does effect these, but the actual hit reactions. Those are the problem in my opinion.

Exactly!

What is the main difference between Arcade and Sim fightings, except Juggle combos? - in Arcade fightings frame data of the moves is CONSTANT which is unreal in changing real life conditions (stamina, current health condition, how accented/clear the strike was landed, short & long reach, etc).
But the striking principes in arcade fighting are realistic and deep.

So, all we need as i wrote is to make moves' frame data dynamically changing, depending on the "real life conditions" ((stamina, current health condition, how accented/clear the strike was landed, short & long reach, etc).
This will bring REALISM in right and deep arcade fightings principes, you (human, not CPU game system) will not be able to know mathematically accurateframe data of your move because it is changing accross many irl factors, but as you know its principes you can predict very close its approximate frame data, so you can predict it results approximately and you can to plan your strategy more consciously.

Devs can implement this into the game by special formulas which will count real-time dynamic frame data > then the striking becomes TRULY BASED on real life PHYSICS, w/o damage to the gameplay.

[Phobia]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I like what you are bringing to the table Sugata, its logical and appears on the surface to fix some issues.

I think for me the only two questions I have.

1) Lets take your dynamic adjustment of F per move based on all factors like stamina and so forth.

If Wonderboy starts a spinning round house kick but is tired so his "start up" frames are very long, yet i wait just enough frames that my big right hook connects at the same time as wonderboy kick. So based on the fact both under active frames, this then falls to which move is outputting more damage. If the hook wins due to stamina, does it make sense to stop the momentum of the round house thus causing a stumble animation.

Part of my issue now with the stumble system aka strike interrupt. Its a bandaid on the bigger problem, which is stamina. Stamina is a very very dynamic mechanic to try and replicate. In the real octagon you can see a fighter completely gas in one round (shamrock vs kimbo anyone lol) or the next could go 5 rounds with a tank to spare. EA UFC does not represent this correctly and its been my huge long standing issue.

Moves which expend a lot of energy should do just that whether it connects or whiffs you the user should see drastic stamina reduction for these moves. Obviously a whiff should remove more but this would fix several issues.

a) No more needing to add funky strike interruptions which ignore the laws of physics.

b) Risk reward system in place, throw 10 flying knees in the first round, well better hope one ends the fight because you will be gassed down the stretch. Reward see (c)

c) One punch/kick knockouts. These high end moves should have a multiplier to 1p ko. So the risk of gassing your self being overly aggressive can provide a reward with perfectly landed big move.

If stamina is reworked where players can gas at any given point in the fight due to poorly managing it, you wouldnt see add ins to fix the problems. Physics could take over for the interactions.

I have no problem someone landing a spinning high kick as im throwing a jab. I might connect but his momentum will carry him around to likely connect. What i dont like seeing is a round house half way finished and a quick jab lands causing all logic to go out the window and the guy goes flying backwards as if he never started throwing the kick.

2) How would your system fix one punch knockouts?

If I could walk in the studio and make changes to the striking. These would be my instant changes to the current system.

* immediately bring back 1 punch knockouts

* severely bump up all standing strike damage.

* heavily increase stamina consumption

* Remove combo multiplier

* Remove parry system

Posted from phone excuse any typos/grammar


Sent from da lil phone.

[ryan4889]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Holy **** Sugata! These are really great ideas. EA, you really should hire this guy for real. Not only does he know what he is talking about from a technical standpoint, but he seems to be a huge fan of the sport and is striving for that ultra-realistic gameplay we are all striving for. My apologies Sugata for my overreaction in our last interaction dude.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I like what you are bringing to the table Sugata, its logical and appears on the surface to fix some issues.

I think for me the only two questions I have.

1) Lets take your dynamic adjustment of F per move based on all factors like stamina and so forth.

If Wonderboy starts a spinning round house kick but is tired so his "start up" frames are very long, yet i wait just enough frames that my big right hook connects at the same time as wonderboy kick. So based on the fact both under active frames, this then falls to which move is outputting more damage. If the hook wins due to stamina, does it make sense to stop the momentum of the round house thus causing a stumble animation.

This was one of the discussion points I wanted to bring up, but you beat me to it.

Let me give my answer, I'm curious what others think.

In the OP, the intercept logic is binary except when the active frames overlap exactly.

Whoever lands first wins, regardless of strike type.

That's a very classical fighting game setup.

I think where a sim game could adapt that logic is to make the intercept logic analog, just like the OP suggests making the frames dynamic based on stamina, ratings, etc.

We have the beginnings of this in UFC 2, but it came late and wasn't formalized properly.

If you land a strike in the start up frames, you stop it completely.

If you land a strike late in the start up frames, you don't stop your opponent, but you remove some of the damage from his strike which will land after yours, based on the power of each.

So a jab will take away a jab's worth of damage from a head kick, but the head kick still gets to land, and still deals considerable damage.

I think the magic formula lies in making a continuos set of results between those two outcomes.

Consider this analogy.

Someone fires up the engine on a boat and aims it at a tagert, then the engines are turned off.

I throw a rock at the boat to try and throw it off target.

If the rock hits the boat 2000 miles away from its target, it might actually deflect it enough to miss.

If the rock hits the boat 10 feet from it's target, nothing happens.

What about a cannon ball? That will have a bigger impact, and reduce the distance at which the boat misses.

What about another boat?

Shorter still.

What about a torpedo?

Even shorter.

With strikes we have a few different outcomes:

1. the strike could be stopped completely with a hit reaction.

2. the strike could be deflected off it's trajectory and miss

3. The strike could be deflected off it's trajectory and land with a glancing blow, reducing damage

4. the strike could still land on target but with reduced damage due to the intercepting strike (aldo mcgregor)

5. The strike lands with full accuracy and force.

Consider where you fall on this line to be a function of the start up frames, and where in the start up frames the strike lands.

All continuous, no hard digital line of when a strike beats another strike.

And those factors can be dynamic based on stamina, damage, ratings, etc...

[Phobia]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I like it on paper and looks to be the right way of handling it. Now how that transfers over to the in-game engine is entirely something else.

I'll use the current strike interrupt as an example. Way wayyyyy to many strikes are causing this flamboyant "flop" animations when a strike lands on start up. While the "game play" balancing mechanic of it works great, the visual is terrible.

Now let me ask you this GPD, I understand from a "selling" perspective that stamina being on the casual side wins out. I'm fine with the punch output numbers being slightly inflated compared to IRL, but is there a way to bring a stamina risk from throwing heavy/highlight strikes?

Its not that Bones Jones can't throw 25 spinning high kicks in a fight and you can't control peoples actions online BUT you can curb behavior with risk/rewards. These strikes do greater damage & feature a higher chance to rock but there is very little to deter throwing 25 of them in a round.

If stamina consumption feels realistic then that would transfer over to the gameplay is my point of view. Granted there is several areas which need work in the stand up game, but stamina stands out for me as being critical. Its comparable to running in Madden, for years it never looked right, and players could zig zag all over the field. While the game had beautiful graphics & looked fantastic in pictures it never transferred over well in motion. This is pretty much where I stand on UFC stand up.

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On a separate but similar note. I think you mentioned Brizzo doesn't want 1 punch knockouts in due to people complaining that "1 random punch lost me the fight, its bull ****". Yet I'd say the easy counter is "Don't get hit then", but that's way to black and white. Its far deeper of an issue because all the stand up mechanics don't mesh well with one another. So my question based on all this, is 1 punch knockouts even in discussions on how to implement properly or is this just completely off the table & combo multiplier being the end all be all for finishing fights?