NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

**gbmbjj** · 06-02-2016, 10:01 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Sorry, but I have to ask....This OP has been posting stuff like this for years with all these intense, highly detailed and well thought out ideas....but have ANY of them ever made it into the game/patch?

**aholbert32** · 06-02-2016, 10:12 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by gbmbjj

Sorry, but I have to ask....This OP has been posting stuff like this for years with all these intense, highly detailed and well thought out ideas....but have ANY of them ever made it into the game/patch?

I cant speak specifically regarding Sugata but ideas from the community have been implemented into the game. The momentum system, strike intercept and many animation ideas are just a few examples.

**SUGATA** · 06-02-2016, 10:29 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Phobia

I like what you are bringing to the table Sugata, its logical and appears on the surface to fix some issues.

I think for me the only two questions I have.

1) Lets take your dynamic adjustment of F per move based on all factors like stamina and so forth.

If Wonderboy starts a spinning round house kick but is tired so his "start up" frames are very long, yet i wait just enough frames that my big right hook connects at the same time as wonderboy kick. So based on the fact both under active frames, this then falls to which move is outputting more damage. If the hook wins due to stamina, does it make sense to stop the momentum of the round house thus causing a stumble animation.

Part of my issue now with the stumble system aka strike interrupt. Its a bandaid on the bigger problem, which is stamina. Stamina is a very very dynamic mechanic to try and replicate. In the real octagon you can see a fighter completely gas in one round (shamrock vs kimbo anyone lol) or the next could go 5 rounds with a tank to spare. EA UFC does not represent this correctly and its been my huge long standing issue.

Moves which expend a lot of energy should do just that whether it connects or whiffs you the user should see drastic stamina reduction for these moves. Obviously a whiff should remove more but this would fix several issues.

a) No more needing to add funky strike interruptions which ignore the laws of physics.

b) Risk reward system in place, throw 10 flying knees in the first round, well better hope one ends the fight because you will be gassed down the stretch. Reward see (c)

c) One punch/kick knockouts. These high end moves should have a multiplier to 1p ko. So the risk of gassing your self being overly aggressive can provide a reward with perfectly landed big move.

If stamina is reworked where players can gas at any given point in the fight due to poorly managing it, you wouldnt see add ins to fix the problems. Physics could take over for the interactions.

I have no problem someone landing a spinning high kick as im throwing a jab. I might connect but his momentum will carry him around to likely connect. What i dont like seeing is a round house half way finished and a quick jab lands causing all logic to go out the window and the guy goes flying backwards as if he never started throwing the kick.

2) How would your system fix one punch knockouts?

If I could walk in the studio and make changes to the striking. These would be my instant changes to the current system.

* immediately bring back 1 punch knockouts

* severely bump up all standing strike damage.

* heavily increase stamina consumption

* Remove combo multiplier

* Remove parry system

Posted from phone excuse any typos/grammar

Sent from da lil phone.

Sorry for delay b/c of work. As i understood yr questions:

1) Both strike are hitting at the same time.
Wins those strike which has more final dmg.
Strike w higher final damage crushes (intercept, stopped) opponent's strike.
Which SA i recieve then?
- More final dmg = more SA = more hit stun = more "struggling" animation that illustrates this hit stun (more stumble).

I have no problem someone landing a spinning high kick as im throwing a jab. I might connect but his momentum will carry him around to likely connect. What i dont like seeing is a round house half way finished and a quick jab lands causing all logic to go out the window and the guy goes flying backwards as if he never started throwing the kick.

As i wrote:
In UFC you can make ANALOG strike crushing: when one strike #1 landed on other #2 strike's startup (starting strike), system is counting FINAL DAMAGE of both strikes and if #1 strike final damage is >0.8 of strike #2 final damage - starting strike #2 will be stopped, if <0.8 - starting strike #2 will not be stopped but a bit weakened by misleading, <0.3 - no effect at all (ex, no effect by Jab on Superman punch).
So, the final dmg determines which strike will crush another strike.

Roundhouse kick on Low stamina: slower startup and recovery, the same Hit phase, lower dmg
Interrupting Hook on High stamina: normal fast startup, high dmg.
Resulting damage Hook > weakened Kick = Fighter w Kick is struggled.

Quick Jab wiill be too weak to crush Roundhouse kick (<0.3 for ex) so no Momentum conflict. Hook is enough powerful strike to revert Kick's momentum.

Btw, we can create a system when crushing (interrupting) feature ALSO depends on how close oponent's strike is to its execution end:
- less final damage difference between 2 strikes (both has identical momentum = more length of his opponent's strike execution phase vulnerable to be crushed (Hook beats Hook even when landed on its nearly completed exe phase b/c they both have equal momentum).
- More final damage difference between 2 strikes (different momentum) = less line segment of his exe phase vulnerable to be crushed (my Hook may crush opponent powerful Kick even if has more dmg but only if landed on Kick's early exe phase while Kick has low/weak momentum weak amplitude).
This system (final damage advanatge plus right moment to land on his exe phase) is more deep and difficult than Crushing based ONLY on final damage advantage.

2) About LUCKY STRIKE:
Lucky strike - one strike that cause KO regardless of current opponent's health status.
This exist irl, so it must to be in the game.
But it must to be very rare and requires some conditions for increasing % probability of this Lucky strike:
- counter window
- powerful enough strike (not jab)
- high my stamina
- low opponent stamina (so he is not ready to resist the incoming strike)
- Momentum (strike landed on opponent's execution phase)

**SUGATA** · 06-02-2016, 10:40 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by gbmbjj

Sorry, but I have to ask....This OP has been posting stuff like this for years with all these intense, highly detailed and well thought out ideas....but have ANY of them ever made it into the game/patch?

Sadly very few of them.
But here is the last example:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...e-section.html

5) The BIGGEST ISSUE with reversals in this game (not Grapple block reversals by R2+RS) is that all this revesraks we can input and keep holding PRE-EPTIVELY and w/o any animation/stamina drain signals for opponent! So our reversal will be guaranteed.

Patch 1.07 spoilers:

Changed the inputs for submission reversals on the ground to be L2+R2 to fix exploits and enforce pre-emptive denial penalty

I have not see complaining about the pre-emptive wrong mechanics of Sub reversals from anybody before me.

Then i wrote that Mistimed Parry cancel Block was not implemented by patch 1.05, so devs fixed this in 1.06.

But i posted much more ideas and how to fix and i hope they will get devs attention.

Here is the LIST of some of my ideas/how to fix solutions:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...rchid=12296229

**GameplayDevUFC** · 06-02-2016, 10:50 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Phobia

On a separate but similar note. I think you mentioned Brizzo doesn't want 1 punch knockouts in due to people complaining that "1 random punch lost me the fight, its bull ****". Yet I'd say the easy counter is "Don't get hit then", but that's way to black and white. Its far deeper of an issue because all the stand up mechanics don't mesh well with one another. So my question based on all this, is 1 punch knockouts even in discussions on how to implement properly or is this just completely off the table & combo multiplier being the end all be all for finishing fights?

I never quoted him as saying that.

He may very well have said it, but my hunch is the angry trolls took the quote out of context to try and make him look bad.

We know people don't want random events ending a fight.

We know people want one punch KO's.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

As has been posted many times by Solid_Altair, EA MMA figured this out the best out of any game so far.

We can always take or adapt their system.

Don't ask why we didn't already do that because I don't want to get into it.

**Bigg Cee** · 06-02-2016, 10:58 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by GameplayDevUFC

I never quoted him as saying that.

He may very well have said it, but my hunch is the angry trolls took the quote out of context to try and make him look bad.

We know people don't want random events ending a fight.

We know people want one punch KO's.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

As has been posted many times by Solid_Altair, EA MMA figured this out the best out of any game so far.

We can always take or adapt their system.

Don't ask why we didn't already do that because I don't want to get into it

Why GPD? can you please explain. lol J/K

**aholbert32** · 06-02-2016, 11:17 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by GameplayDevUFC

I never quoted him as saying that.

He may very well have said it, but my hunch is the angry trolls took the quote out of context to try and make him look bad.

We know people don't want random events ending a fight.

We know people want one punch KO's.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

As has been posted many times by Solid_Altair, EA MMA figured this out the best out of any game so far.

We can always take or adapt their system.

Don't ask why we didn't already do that because I don't want to get into it.

Yeah, I cant find a quote online where Brian said that. In 2014, he did an interview about 1 punch KOs.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ian-hayes.html

He just confirmed that they were in the game and explained the circumstances when they occur.

**Lake the striker** · 06-02-2016, 11:52 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by GameplayDevUFC

This was one of the discussion points I wanted to bring up, but you beat me to it.

Let me give my answer, I'm curious what others think.

In the OP, the intercept logic is binary except when the active frames overlap exactly.

Whoever lands first wins, regardless of strike type.

That's a very classical fighting game setup.

I think where a sim game could adapt that logic is to make the intercept logic analog, just like the OP suggests making the frames dynamic based on stamina, ratings, etc.

We have the beginnings of this in UFC 2, but it came late and wasn't formalized properly.

If you land a strike in the start up frames, you stop it completely.

If you land a strike late in the start up frames, you don't stop your opponent, but you remove some of the damage from his strike which will land after yours, based on the power of each.

So a jab will take away a jab's worth of damage from a head kick, but the head kick still gets to land, and still deals considerable damage.

I think the magic formula lies in making a continuos set of results between those two outcomes.

Consider this analogy.

Someone fires up the engine on a boat and aims it at a tagert, then the engines are turned off.

I throw a rock at the boat to try and throw it off target.

If the rock hits the boat 2000 miles away from its target, it might actually deflect it enough to miss.

If the rock hits the boat 10 feet from it's target, nothing happens.

What about a cannon ball? That will have a bigger impact, and reduce the distance at which the boat misses.

What about another boat?

Shorter still.

What about a torpedo?

Even shorter.

With strikes we have a few different outcomes:

1. the strike could be stopped completely with a hit reaction.

2. the strike could be deflected off it's trajectory and miss

3. The strike could be deflected off it's trajectory and land with a glancing blow, reducing damage

4. the strike could still land on target but with reduced damage due to the intercepting strike (aldo mcgregor)

5. The strike lands with full accuracy and force.

Consider where you fall on this line to be a function of the start up frames, and where in the start up frames the strike lands.

All continuous, no hard digital line of when a strike beats another strike.

And those factors can be dynamic based on stamina, damage, ratings, etc...

I like this striking system alot, it seems very well balanced. I cant see anything I'd like changed apart from the damage output of strikes and perhaps making staggers/stuns more physics based (I've always wondered what this game would be like if it used the Natural Motion Euphoria engine instead of the Ignite engine).

You mentioned glancing blows doing less damage and blows being deflected by movement, so the physics system in the game must be fairly accurate, if so what about introducing such precision regarding where your blow actually lands? (jaw, chin e.t.c.).

For example, if your strike isn’t intercepted, is thrown at full stamina, is thrown at optimum distance and lands on the chin it should cause a knock out or at very least a stun, would it make sense to introduce something like that into the next game? Or is it something you fear causals wouldn’t take to?

Also you say a hit reaction can stop a strike, but what exactly causes a hit reactions apart from accumulated damage based on the combo multiplier, whether you interrupt a strike during its start up frames and the result of a probability event? Are there any other factors that cause hit stuns?

**Phobia** · 06-02-2016, 12:16 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by GameplayDevUFC

I never quoted him as saying that.

He may very well have said it, but my hunch is the angry trolls took the quote out of context to try and make him look bad.

We know people don't want random events ending a fight.

We know people want one punch KO's.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

As has been posted many times by Solid_Altair, EA MMA figured this out the best out of any game so far.

We can always take or adapt their system.

Don't ask why we didn't already do that because I don't want to get into it.

Originally posted by aholbert32

Yeah, I cant find a quote online where Brian said that. In 2014, he did an interview about 1 punch KOs.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ian-hayes.html

He just confirmed that they were in the game and explained the circumstances when they occur.

Yea I'm not sure where I read that, GPD might be correct that it was someone that took it out of context and that's where I read it.

LOL starting with your last sentence GPD, I'm guessing its safe to assume we won't see 1 punch ko's back in this iteration of UFC 2? I'm assuming by your post this won't make a come back until UFC 3 if it does.

**SUGATA** · 06-03-2016, 08:27 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

DISCUSSION ABOUT 3) CRUSHING (Stopping power):

I want to discuss how better to implement Crushing (Stopping power) in EA UFC3.

We have 3 variants:

2P perform Strike with Execution 30F.
1P blocked this strike and gain SA +10F, it means that his next move will be 10F earlier than 2P.
2P then immediately while on -10F (strike disadvantage) launch Strike (Spinning kick) with 30F execution, instead of going to defense and Block incoming punish (b/c he is a "button spinning kick masher" he dont pay attention to his SA status, not hit checking).

> 1P launching his Punish attack strike while he is +10F (strike advantage).
Lets discuss how is BETTER to be for gameplay in this situation when 2 strikes are coming to each other (Stopping power, intercepting):

> 1P can launch fast Jab with 10F exe > then he land its hit before 2P exit from his -10F SA and be possible to block or begin his move = so 10F Jab is GUARANTEED in 10F advantage.
1P can launch powerful Jumping Kick with 40F exe > both strikes are landed at the same time > wins those who have more dmg i.e. 1P jumping kick > huge Hit stun (stumble, FBHR) in +20F > my Hook 20F is guaranteed punish (reaward).

> Now we are close to Strike intercepting when strike land on another strike execution (startup) phase – and here is the question which is better:
1 variant: (no effect on crushing from dmg or execution phase sector)
1P can launch slower but w more dmg Hook with 20F exe > then he landed its hit on 10<sup>th</sup> frame of 30frames execution of 2P Strike = so 1P Hook crushes (stops/intercepts) 2P Kick and causes Major counter (much dmg bonus) > more Hit stun (b/c more final dmg = more Hits stun = more SA) for ex +8F on Counter hit for Hook > 1P continue his attacks while he has SA, 2P is forced to go to Defense block instead of striking on negative SA (we solve button mashing in the game).

2 variant: (effect on crushing from dmg)
1P can launch slower but w more dmg Hook with 20F exe > then he landed its hit on 10<sup>th</sup> frame of 30frames execution of 2P Strike =
IF 1P Hook dmg is not much weaker than 2P Kick (for ex >0.8 of 2P dmg) = it crushes 2P strike
IF 1P Hook dmg is much weaker than 2P Kick (0.3-0.8 of 2P dmg) = 2P strike will not be stopped but a bit weakened by misleading, 1P Hook still cause dmg and hit stun. 2P Kick landed w weaker damage and causing weaker hit stun.
IF 1P Hook (if this is a Jab for ex) is too weaker than 2P Kick (<0.3 of 2P dmg) = no effect at all, 2P Kick crushes my Hook-Jab as if there was not 1P strike (“button masher party”).

3 variant: (effect on crushing from dmg and on what 2P execution sector was 1P strike landed)
System when crushing (interrupting) feature ALSO depends on how close oponent's strike is to its execution end:
- less final damage difference between 2 strikes (both has identical momentum = more length of his opponent's strike execution phase vulnerable to be crushed (Hook beats Hook even when landed on its nearly completed exe phase b/c they both have equal momentum).
- More final damage difference between 2 strikes (different momentum) = less line segment of his exe phase vulnerable to be crushed (my Hook may crush opponent powerful Kick even if has more dmg but only if landed on Kick's early exe phase while Kick has low/weak momentum weak amplitude).
This system (final damage advanatge plus right moment to land on his exe phase) is more deep and difficult than Crushing based ONLY on final damage advantage.
This system is analog determined vulnerable to crushing sector of exe phase.
We can do it simpler: for every strike his first 50% of execution phase is vulnerable to crushing, last 50% is not. For example 30F Kick execution, if 1P strike landed on 1-15<sup>th</sup> its frames then crashing, on 16-30<sup>th</sup> frames then no crash.
This more difficult system will increase WTF situations when our strikes we thought would to crush but did not.

RESUME: I think THE BEST Variant is Variant #1. Because this is more clear, more predictable, more easy to balance and tune, more stable punish to button mashers and “spin kick spammers”.
And still this #1 variant will be realistic enough because strikes final dmg and execution _dynamically changing/depending_ on many real life factors like Stamina 1P and 2P, health, physics vector (how clearly the strike landed), ratings, etc.

What are your thoughts?
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**SUGATA** · 06-03-2016, 08:39 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

9) STRIKE TRACKING:
We have 3 groups of Strikes in the game:
1. LINEAR STRIKE – must to not track well timed Side step or Side Sway.
2. HALF CIRCULAR STRIKE – must to not track when Side stepping/Side swaying in opposite direction away from the strike. The defender needs to check from which side the strike is or will be coming, based on foot position (orthodox/southpaw stance and CM anticipated side strike if attacker is skilled in Combos).
3. FULL CIRCULAR STRIKE – must track all Side steps/Side sways regardless of their direction, but circular strike are slower and costs more stamina so more risker.
What we have now: I don’t how real physics works in determining of landing strikes against side movements, but very often this is not stable and predictable = randomness!
RESUME: Devs you need to rework evasive properties of side movements or tracking properties of strikes to make Track mechanics more clear and stable/predictable. This will increase the role of Side evasive movements in the game which is very required! The defender anticipates where he need to side step/side sway to evade the half-circular strike > attacker's strike whiffed and defender gain large SA from this whiff > and launching his counter strike while he has SA over the opponent.

What are your thoughts?

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**GameplayDevUFC** · 06-03-2016, 10:38 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by SUGATA

9) STRIKE TRACKING:
We have 3 groups of Strikes in the game:
1. LINEAR STRIKE – must to not track well timed Side step or Side Sway.
2. HALF CIRCULAR STRIKE – must to not track when Side stepping/Side swaying in opposite direction away from the strike. The defender needs to check from which side the strike is or will be coming, based on foot position (orthodox/southpaw stance and CM anticipated side strike if attacker is skilled in Combos).
3. FULL CIRCULAR STRIKE – must track all Side steps/Side sways regardless of their direction, but circular strike are slower and costs more stamina so more risker.
What we have now: I don’t how real physics works in determining of landing strikes against side movements, but very often this is not stable and predictable = randomness!
RESUME: Devs you need to rework evasive properties of side movements or tracking properties of strikes to make Track mechanics more clear and stable/predictable. This will increase the role of Side evasive movements in the game which is very required!

What are your thoughts?

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I think this is a really, really good classification scheme. I like it.

**SUGATA** · 06-03-2016, 10:53 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by GameplayDevUFC

I think this is a really, really good classification scheme. I like it.

Thank you.
I am very interesting to know your thoughts (and the developing possibilities) about my prev post here - Crushing (variants). Which variant do you think is the best and is real to develop for UFC3 with balance?

________________________________________

Also i added to Effects from this mechanics one very important effect:
9) This concept will force players to use ALL Move lists because of simple principle: slower Strike = more dmg Srike = more hits stun = more opportunity for follow up strikes (SA). Every time for the player will be a wish to use the most powerful strike for this conditions (SA), because enough SA will allow him to land even slow strong strike with much greater dmg and stun advantage (more reward, profit). It will solve that the most players are using only 50% of Move list.
I.e. every strike will have its + and - and will be best suitable for concrete situations then other strikes.

**Jv160** · 06-03-2016, 02:55 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Glorious post on so many levels

**Lake the striker** · 06-03-2016, 05:54 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by SUGATA

9) STRIKE TRACKING:
We have 3 groups of Strikes in the game:
1. LINEAR STRIKE – must to not track well timed Side step or Side Sway.
2. HALF CIRCULAR STRIKE – must to not track when Side stepping/Side swaying in opposite direction away from the strike. The defender needs to check from which side the strike is or will be coming, based on foot position (orthodox/southpaw stance and CM anticipated side strike if attacker is skilled in Combos).
3. FULL CIRCULAR STRIKE – must track all Side steps/Side sways regardless of their direction, but circular strike are slower and costs more stamina so more risker.
What we have now: I don’t how real physics works in determining of landing strikes against side movements, but very often this is not stable and predictable = randomness!
RESUME: Devs you need to rework evasive properties of side movements or tracking properties of strikes to make Track mechanics more clear and stable/predictable. This will increase the role of Side evasive movements in the game which is very required! The defender anticipates where he need to side step/side sway to evade the half-circular strike > attacker's strike whiffed and defender gain large SA from this whiff > and launching his counter strike while he has SA over the opponent.

What are your thoughts?

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I thought tracking attacks were already in this game, if not they should be. By the way would you happen to be a VFFS player?

One of the big things that I think is missing from EA UFC is clear hit confirms, what do you think? its absolutely lacking in this game as far a I can tell. In Virtua Fighter when you land a counter, high counter, or counter from the side, a unique flash occurs for a split second letting you know you’ve landed counter hit successfully and that you can follow up with a guaranteed attack if you're quick enough.

This is extremely important for fighting games that want to be taken serious on a competitive level because it introduces the element of skill and reflex when it comes to countering. Somtimes what separates the greats from average or normal players in a complete and balanced fighting game is their ability to react to hit confirms effectively.

I was wondering how you guys could introduce hit confirms into EA UFC because there seems to be no clear hit confirm when a character is stunned. I get that flashes and what not wouldn’t fit the aesthetics of the game, however a hit confirm process that may work is that whenever you land a counter or hit stun your controller rumbles with more intensity than it otherwise would for a split second.

NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

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