NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

**Solid_Altair** · 06-03-2016, 06:55 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Great thread, bro! I feel lazy for not having said some of this stuff, with this level of detail, earlier. And by this I mean mostly those little graphics showing the phases of the strikes. I actually drew that on the white boards, during the GC events. Here are some disagreements:

2- (and 8) Striking Advantage is something that happens naturally already. The problem now is that it is not tuned much. And as for having an SA slider, I don't think it would work. It'd be one hell of a clusterf*.

The devs big challenge with SA is making it fit important breakpoints accross all divisions, when accounting for stats differences between fighters. And exchanges would also makes this very tricky.

3- As for curshing and stopping power, I think the solution is actually making it less analog. I know this sounds simplistic, but it has its own set of details, which I'll try to post later. Also, the biggest question is how much stopping power a strike should have (length of hitstun caused), rather than whether or not it has it. I think most strikes should have it and that it should not be based on damage. In EA UFC 2 it is based on damage. And although the stand up mechanics in the current game found a (decent) balance of their own, they're not great. Stopping power based on damage is a very alluring idea, but a bad one. It just generates chaos and poorly tuned frames (especially the unintended guaranteed hits).

4- Traitor! (Jk) You saying health events should be (remain) as %?!

And again, congratulations on the thread. Arcade Powah! :P

**WhoDatNinja** · 06-04-2016, 09:08 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Anyone else have issues with the standup controls? I think there should be a kick modifier, and blocking should be R2 and up/down on the RS. The back/fwd + punch feels like an arcade fighter, i should be able to throw jabs while moving fwd, and hooks while backing up. Coming from FNC the standup controls feel really clunky.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 09:53 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Lake the striker

I thought tracking attacks were already in this game, if not they should be. By the way would you happen to be a VFFS player?

One of the big things that I think is missing from EA UFC is clear hit confirms, what do you think? its absolutely lacking in this game as far a I can tell. In Virtua Fighter when you land a counter, high counter, or counter from the side, a unique flash occurs for a split second letting you know you’ve landed counter hit successfully and that you can follow up with a guaranteed attack if you're quick enough.

This is extremely important for fighting games that want to be taken serious on a competitive level because it introduces the element of skill and reflex when it comes to countering. Somtimes what separates the greats from average or normal players in a complete and balanced fighting game is their ability to react to hit confirms effectively.

I was wondering how you guys could introduce hit confirms into EA UFC because there seems to be no clear hit confirm when a character is stunned. I get that flashes and what not wouldn’t fit the aesthetics of the game, however a hit confirm process that may work is that whenever you land a counter or hit stun your controller rumbles with more intensity than it otherwise would for a split second.

I am playing Virtua Fighter from VF2 for more than 15 years.
VF has 4 types of flashes on the fighters:
Yellow - Major counter hit
White - normal hit
Blue - side turned hit
Red - block breaker

I think bringing flashes to EA UFC is not an option b/c this is a fight sim.
BUT devs can solve this special SOUND for every strike type. See my lower post about it.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 10:10 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Solid_Altair

Great thread, bro! I feel lazy for not having said some of this stuff, with this level of detail, earlier. And by this I mean mostly those little graphics showing the phases of the strikes. I actually drew that on the white boards, during the GC events. Here are some disagreements:

2- (and 8) Striking Advantage is something that happens naturally already. The problem now is that it is not tuned much. And as for having an SA slider, I don't think it would work. It'd be one hell of a clusterf*.

The devs big challenge with SA is making it fit important breakpoints accross all divisions, when accounting for stats differences between fighters. And exchanges would also makes this very tricky.

3- As for curshing and stopping power, I think the solution is actually making it less analog. I know this sounds simplistic, but it has its own set of details, which I'll try to post later. Also, the biggest question is how much stopping power a strike should have (length of hitstun caused), rather than whether or not it has it. I think most strikes should have it and that it should not be based on damage. In EA UFC 2 it is based on damage. And although the stand up mechanics in the current game found a (decent) balance of their own, they're not great. Stopping power based on damage is a very alluring idea, but a bad one. It just generates chaos and poorly tuned frames (especially the unintended guaranteed hits).

4- Traitor! (Jk) You saying health events should be (remain) as %?!

And again, congratulations on the thread. Arcade Powah! :P

2+8) SA slider was in UD3 in form of 2 game modes: ranked Arcade and unranked SIM Pro.
IN EA UFC 3 ranked games will be preset of SA - one the most balanced Value from players feedback. SA slider will allow to tune it by devs on the fly by easy patch or server tune.
SA slider must to be presented in the game for unranked Custom player matches - this will solve some players complaining about "arcadish" gameplay once and for all.
Difference between divisions and ratings = the main is the difference in final damage and speed (Heavy weight fighters has slower speed and higher damage = AUTOMATICALLY more SA and hit stuns value after getting hit) b/c of higher dmg value (by SA formula).

3) In EA UFC 2 no real stopping power. exist only scripts in hit effect:
- every strike must to cause Hit stun (SA) which size depends on strike final dmg. In EA UFC 2 Hits stuns exists only for Full body hit reaction (Stumble) which is launching when get cocnrete large damage, all other strikes w less damage does not cause ANY Hits tun at all (no SA). This is the issue w striking in EA UFC 1-2.
- any strike landed on strike windup will crush it intercept with identical Hit stun (SA). In this concept more dmg = more hitstun (SA) after hit. A wrote about #2 and #3 variants above based on dmg difference and how early strike landed but w stamina depending this will be too diffciult to predict and increase randomness in gameplay. So variant #1 is the best imho.

1 variant: (no effect on crushing from dmg or execution phase sector)
1P can launch slower but w more dmg Hook with 20F exe > then he landed its hit on 10<sup>th</sup> frame of 30frames execution of 2P Strike = so 1P Hook crushes (stops/intercepts) 2P Kick and causes Major counter (much dmg bonus) > more Hit stun (b/c more final dmg = more Hits stun = more SA) for ex +8F on Counter hit for Hook > 1P continue his attacks while he has SA, 2P is forced to go to Defense block instead of striking on negative SA (we solve button mashing in the game).

RESUME: I think THE BEST Variant is Variant #1. Because this is more clear, more predictable, more easy to balance and tune, more stable punish to button mashers and “spin kick spammers”.
And still this #1 variant will be realistic enough because strikes final dmg and execution _dynamically changing/depending_ on many real life factors like Stamina 1P and 2P, health, physics vector (how clearly the strike landed), ratings, etc.

IF devs will make Strikes framedata NOT Dynamically changed by stamina level - this will be like Arcade fightings 100%. EA UFC is a fight sim so i afraid this is not an option. Variant #1 is the smallest change from Arcade framedata (w/o dmg and early landed strike roles).

4) I was not taling too much about DAMAGE COUNTING system in the game - i think w this concept it must to be closer to UD3 cumulative system damage. But i like Health events and may be they must to be tuned - to decrease a bit their influence on gameplay w cumulative UD3 dmg system.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 10:51 AM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Some additions to Striking concept:

 10) SOUND HIT CONFIRM:
In this Striking concept we has at least 4 types of hits:
1. Blocked hit
2. Major counter hit – landed on opponent’s execution phase, give additional large dmg bonus.
3. Normal hit – landed on normal state, no dmg bonus
4. Side turned hit – landed when opponent is by side to me, increased damage and SA.

Devs just need to make SPECIAL SOUND for every 4 type of hits.
1. muffled shuffling sound
2. the most loud sound
3. less loud sound
4. loud expiring sound (like air exiting).

Effect: sound confirm allow player on the fly to check his strike result and react to this more earlier > more deep and planned gameplay.

11) SIDE TURNED Situation (STS) as a anti turtle tool:
The idea is to bring Side turned situation when opponent is by his side to me after some actions.

Opponent in this state:
- requires to turn around to me which take time (for ex 8F), and ONLY AFTER this his strike will launch > his strike execution will be longer by 8F (i.e. more SA to me)
- can activate Block w/o additional penalty (based only on his strike disadvantage), but will have increased frames penalty (8F) required for turning around to become faced to me.
- opponent can turn around to me by clicking any move or strike and all of them will have +8F to their execution.
- in this state opponent’s Block is only by ONE hand > all damage from different sided strike or combo (L-R) are landed on ONE hand > more sooner Block breaking (more suitable situation for Combos) > need less trikes to break a block (shorter combo)
How Block works now in EA UFC2: it depends only on Hand health; when ONE hand accumulate max possible damage it cancels ENTIRE block. Left strikes hits right hand, right strikes hits left hand > Combo (switching L-R) will deal damage to L and R hands nearly equally > needs more strikes to break a block (longer combo).

How to go into STS:
1. By Offensive Side step
2. By some Half circular and Full circular strikes which have rotating effect on opponent (only on Major counter hit).

12) 2 types of SIDE STEPS:
EA UFC 2 has 2 types of Side steps (LS click and with L1) which are not too different in usage.
This Striking concept will bring 2 absolutely different side steps:

1. DEFENSIVE SIDE STEP (DSS):
Click LS up/down
- will have a bit wider range that we have now
- has evasive properties against linear and half circular attacks if stepped in right direction away from the strike (check opponent’s foot position = skill).
- after well timed DSS opponent’s strike whiffed > I have SA for punish
- failed DSS (mistimed) has shorter range and animation , may be another sound (for checking)
- I think devs needs to remove Stamina level effect on DSS (lower stamina = slower DSS) to make it more stable (we have stamina depending strikes – this is enough)
Anti DSS:
- delayed strike to break his DSS timing (when evasive phase of DSS is gone)
- full circular and appropriate half circular strikes
- all grappling moves (Clinch, TD).
Effect from getting hit on failed DSS:
- increased dmg bonus as a Major counter = more hit stun.
Conditions to DSS: negative SA (to evade attack).

2. OFFENSIVE SIDE STEP (OSS):
Click LS up/down + L1
- will have a bit another animation and sound (for checking), wider range
- has NOT any evasive properties at all! All strikes and Grappling moves are hitting OSS and causing Major counter
- but if the opponent is not making strikes/Grappling moves (Clinch, TD), is moving or stand still or stand Blocking – I will be on his Side after OSS (I will get Side step situation and all advantages from it), so OSS is a perfect anti Turtle tool (against players who back pedal with blocking). And bring more depth and difference into Striking stand up, also will bring truly 3D fighting.
- I think devs needs to remove Stamina level effect on OSS (lower Stamina = slower OSS) to make it more stable (we have stamina depending strikes – this is enough).
Conditions to OSS: neutral or positive SA (to increase SA and solve Turtling fighters. For ex after gaining some SA (by hit, opponent whiff naturally not by DSS, after blocking his strike) i perform OSS to increase my SA and to get opportunity to Block break go to defense opponent.
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P.S. Added new info to 1st post.

**Solid_Altair** · 06-04-2016, 12:01 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by SUGATA

I am playing Virtua Fighter from VF2 for more than 15 years.
VF has 4 types of flashes on the fighters:
Yellow - Major counter hit
White - normal hit
Blue - side turned hit
Red - block breaker

I think bringing flashes to EA UFC is not an option b/c this is a fight sim.
BUT devs can solve this special SOUND for every strike type. See my lower post about it.

The game already has different sounds for block, hit, and health events. I think that's enough.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 12:14 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Solid_Altair

The game already has different sounds for block, hit, and health events. I think that's enough.

I know but they are not well recognized between each other. The task is to increase difference between them.

**Lake the striker** · 06-04-2016, 03:19 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by SUGATA

Some additions to Striking concept:

10) SOUND HIT CONFIRM:
In this Striking concept we has at least 4 types of hits:
1. Blocked hit
2. Major counter hit – landed on opponent’s execution phase, give additional large dmg bonus.
3. Normal hit – landed on normal state, no dmg bonus
4. Side turned hit – landed when opponent is by side to me, increased damage and SA.

Devs just need to make SPECIAL SOUND for every 4 type of hits.
1. muffled shuffling sound
2. the most loud sound
3. less loud sound
4. loud expiring sound (like air exiting).

Effect: sound confirm allow player on the fly to check his strike result and react to this more earlier > more deep and planned gameplay.

11) SIDE TURNED Situation (STS) as a anti turtle tool:
The idea is to bring Side turned situation when opponent is by his side to me after some actions.

Opponent in this state:
- requires to turn around to me which take time (for ex 8F), and ONLY AFTER this his strike will launch > his strike execution will be longer by 8F (i.e. more SA to me)
- can activate Block w/o additional penalty (based only on his strike disadvantage), but will have increased frames penalty (8F) required for turning around to become faced to me.
- opponent can turn around to me by clicking any move or strike and all of them will have +8F to their execution.
- in this state opponent’s Block is only by ONE hand > all damage from different sided strike or combo (L-R) are landed on ONE hand > more sooner Block breaking (more suitable situation for Combos) > need less trikes to break a block (shorter combo)
How Block works now in EA UFC2: it depends only on Hand health; when ONE hand accumulate max possible damage it cancels ENTIRE block. Left strikes hits right hand, right strikes hits left hand > Combo (switching L-R) will deal damage to L and R hands nearly equally > needs more strikes to break a block (longer combo).

How to go into STS:
1. By Offensive Side step
2. By some Half circular and Full circular strikes which have rotating effect on opponent (only on Major counter hit).

12) 2 types of SIDE STEPS:
EA UFC 2 has 2 types of Side steps (LS click and with L1) which are not too different in usage.
This Striking concept will bring 2 absolutely different side steps:

1. DEFENSIVE SIDE STEP (DSS):
Click LS up/down
- will have a bit wider range that we have now
- has evasive properties against linear and half circular attacks if stepped in right direction away from the strike (check opponent’s foot position = skill).
- after well timed DSS opponent’s strike whiffed > I have SA for punish
- failed DSS (mistimed) has shorter range and animation , may be another sound (for checking)
- I think devs needs to remove Stamina level effect on DSS (lower stamina = slower DSS) to make it more stable (we have stamina depending strikes – this is enough)
Anti DSS:
- delayed strike to break his DSS timing (when evasive phase of DSS is gone)
- full circular and appropriate half circular strikes
- all grappling moves (Clinch, TD).
Effect from getting hit on failed DSS:
- increased dmg bonus as a Major counter = more hit stun.

2. OFFENSIVE SIDE STEP (OSS):
Click LS up/down + L1
- will have a bit another animation and sound (for checking), wider range
- has NOT any evasive properties at all! All strikes and Grappling moves are hitting OSS and causing Major counter
- but if the opponent is not making strikes/Grappling moves (Clinch, TD), is moving or stand still or stand Blocking – I will be on his Side after OSS (I will get Side step situation and all advantages from it), so OSS is a perfect anti Turtle tool (against players who back pedal with blocking). And bring more depth and difference into Striking stand up, also will bring truly 3D fighting.

- I think devs needs to remove Stamina level effect on OSS (lower Stamina = slower OSS) to make it more stable (we have stamina depending strikes – this is enough).

P.S. Added new info to 1st post.

Yes sound would definitely work but its application is limited. If a competitive player has to play with with low volume, sound as the only hit confirm may be a problem. The application of vibrations as hit confirmations are limited to, for that reason I think EA should introduce both hit confirm by vibration and hit confirm by sound. Just as VFFS have both sounds and visual confirmations for hit confirms.

Introducing offensive side stepping and side advantage sounds like an excellent idea BUT I think it should have evasive properties. Currently if you side step an opponent that is striking on the back foot they can simply continue move backwards at normal speed and avoid any returning strike you have, even if you throw an attack with maximum range.

With evasive offensive side stepping they wouldn’t be able to stay on the back foot so easily, as you'd be sidesteping their attack and moving towards them at the same time, it could solve the “runner” problem and add an extra level of realism to the game. Plus offensive side stepping is a technique sometimes used in boxing so it wouldn’t break immersion or realism either.

Originally posted by Solid_Altair

The game already has different sounds for block, hit, and health events. I think that's enough.

That's no where near enough.

There is no obvious differentiating sound or visual confirmation for successful stuns and counters, none at all. No competitive fighting game can have a viable counter system without it.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 03:42 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Lake the striker

Yes sound would definitely work but its application is limited. If a competitive player has to play with with low volume, sound as the only hit confirm may be a problem. The application of vibrations as hit confirmations are limited to, for that reason I think EA should introduce both hit confirm by vibration and hit confirm by sound. Just as VFFS have both sounds and visual confirmations for hit confirms.

Introducing offensive side stepping and side advantage sounds like an excellent idea BUT I think it should have evasive properties. Currently if you side step an opponent that is striking on the back foot they can simply continue move backwards at normal speed and avoid any returning strike you have, even if you throw an attack with maximum range.

With evasive offensive side stepping they wouldn’t be able to stay on the back foot so easily, as you'd be sidesteping their attack and moving towards them at the same time, it could solve the “runner” problem and add an extra level of realism to the game. Plus offensive side stepping is a technique sometimes used in boxing so it wouldn’t break immersion or realism either.

That's no where near enough.

There is no obvious differentiating sound or visual confirmation for successful stuns and counters, none at all. No competitive fighting game can have a viable counter system without it.

If OSS will have also evasive properties then it become imbalanced and DSS will
Be not needed.
So, the only variant as I see for balance is not evasive but w side turned opportunities OSS and evasive DSS.

**Solid_Altair** · 06-04-2016, 04:09 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Don't you guys think the sound cues (and flashes of light, in the arcade games) are just a cherry on the cake, to help you react more quickly to things that can be perceived just by the circumstances themselves? This cues are not strictly needed for you to know what is happening. They are only aids of perception to speed-up your reactions.

And I think further differentiating the sounds we have now would have to be done careful so we wouldn't end up with over-the-top effects.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 05:17 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Solid_Altair

Don't you guys think the sound cues (and flashes of light, in the arcade games) are just a cherry on the cake, to help you react more quickly to things that can be perceived just by the circumstances themselves? This cues are not strictly needed for you to know what is happening. They are only aids of perception to speed-up your reactions.

And I think further differentiating the sounds we have now would have to be done careful so we wouldn't end up with over-the-top effects.

Flashes and sounds in VF for ex are very important for hit checking, when you need to take a decision in several frames (1/60sec) the more senses = the better.
I dont see any difficulties or cons from making sound for different hit types more different. More difference = less time to recognize the hit type.

**Lake the striker** · 06-04-2016, 06:50 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by SUGATA

If OSS will have also evasive properties then it become imbalanced and DSS will
Be not needed.
So, the only variant as I see for balance is not evasive but w side turned opportunities OSS and evasive DSS.

True, so offensive side stepping should be used to close distance when you gain block advantage or your opponent wiffs their offence? Now that I think about it that could definitely work.

**SUGATA** · 06-04-2016, 07:24 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Lake the striker

True, so offensive side stepping should be used to close distance when you gain block advantage or your opponent wiffs their offence? Now that I think about it that could definitely work.

Conditions for DSS: negative SA (to evade attacks)
Conditions to OSS: neutral or positive SA (to increase SA and solve Turtling fighters. For ex after gaining some SA (by hit, opponent whiff naturally not by DSS, after blocking his strike) i perform OSS to increase my SA and to get opportunity to Block break go to defense opponent.

**Lake the striker** · 06-04-2016, 07:54 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by Solid_Altair

Don't you guys think the sound cues (and flashes of light, in the arcade games) are just a cherry on the cake, to help you react more quickly to things that can be perceived just by the circumstances themselves? This cues are not strictly needed for you to know what is happening. They are only aids of perception to speed-up your reactions.

You're right but the objective is balance.

The goal is to make hit checking challenging but reasonable, which is why hit confirms should be fast but moderately invoke as many senses as possible.

And I think further differentiating the sounds we have now would have to be done careful so we wouldn't end up with over-the-top effects.

That’s why EA shouldn’t just add these effects, they should replace and remove other less useful ones if need be.

**REDDy4war** · 06-04-2016, 09:41 PM

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Originally posted by SUGATA

I made some corrections about SA coefficient and strikes crushing, so please send them the last edited version.
Also, during future discussions and adjustments here i will add new info to my 1st post or make some corrections. so the 1st post in this thread will be always the most complicated and actual.
GPD if your team will have any questions this is always welcome to find the answers within our community.
Again, imho now the only one major issue exist in EA UFC - the stand up striking mechanics. New stand up striking in future EA UFC 3 alone will be a kill feature (must have)! Striking change must to be your main priority for UFC 3 as i think.

what about total strike control?

NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

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