Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

To be clear, it's not tricking me, or ZombieRommel, or Phillyboi207, or any of us into thinking we are clever. We are clever. And we are pulling off slick ****.

But even if you want to believe it is. I still prefer that system 100 times over.




How do you feel about us all just letting this one go?

I don't think we are all going to be able to come to an agreement on this one. There have been some really great posts throughout this thread, and it seems like both sides have been thoroughly explored and discussed.

Is there anything left to discuss?

We might as well keep it shut down. lol

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

We had the beta for a week and people had to learn a new system. I doubt there are many or any videos like this.

That's probably because the consecutive slips have a tiny niche in UFC 3. The only use I see for them is for when you lean and the guy doesn't strike, so you change the direction to actually slip the strike that comes at you. That's extremely specific and will probably only happen a few times on some very high level matches.

That argument may fly with UFC 2 since the tracking was weird but definitely doesnt apply to fight night

I would like to see videos or gifs as evidence that FNC was very different.

Still, that was a general point about the illusion of the physics-based systems. This is a hard thing to explain, so I'm glad Martial Mind did the heavy lifting there, with those fancy pics and such. If Haz could see, other probably will, too.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

To be clear, it's not tricking me, or ZombieRommel, or Phillyboi207, or any of us into thinking we are clever. We are clever. And we are pulling off slick ****.

Dayum... I knew I shouldn't believe in miracles.

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Man I love Martial, and have mad hespect for him, but his analysis was off on that one. I posted my own pictures showing how that hook clearly was no where near hitting me.

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Lets put aside the mechanics of 360 head movement for a minute. Lets state some facts:

There are 550 plus fighters in the UFC.

250 plus of those fighters will be in the game.

Of those 250 only 30 (if that) of them use 360 FNC style head movement in real life.

Thats a little over 10%.

The reality is in order for it to be realistic the head movement would need to be nerfed (slowed down/less responsive) by the head movement stat. Lets say there is a significant nerf for anyone 92 and below. That leaves 4/5 (probably more but I dont feel like counting the exact number) of the roster using the slowed down 360 head movement.


So what some of you are arguing is that the game should implement head movement that only 10% of the game's fighters will use....

or go back to a system that had head tracking issues that made it so you could lean to the side of a strike and still cause it to miss?

Now keep in mind, I'm not talking about shorter sways. I'm talking about the stationary chained sways that you can do in FNC.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Man I love Martial, and have mad hespect for him, but his analysis was off on that one. I posted my own pictures showing how that hook clearly was no where near hitting me.

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Regarding the tracking, I'm not just talking about your clip. I've seen it happen in many of the fights I've been in. Its an issue with UFC 2.

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Regarding the tracking, I'm not just talking about your clip. I've seen it happen in many of the fights I've been in. Its an issue with UFC 2.

Fair enough. You're probably right.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I know that was directed at Kenetic but that's a good question and I wanna give my perspective on it too.

The more perspectives the better.. =]

I definitely don't feel the head movement is responsive enough. But by responsive I'm only referring to how long it takes after I input a sway command for my eyes to clearly see the animation begin to play.

I'm not talking about how fast the whole animation is. Just that the startup frames are subtle, so subtle that after I input the command it seems like nothing is happening for what I feel is a long time.

Right now I'd flick the right stick and my thumb would be done with the flick motion before I actually see the animation play. I personally don't like that.

So far we agree.

I was talking to Solid about this, but I wonder if there's a way to shorten the startup, while still keeping the same speed for sways, so that when I input the command, I can see the animation begin to play sooner. EVEN if the sway itself is not faster.... it'll feel more responsive.

Agreed again. It'll most likely help to see the actual sway animation start, even if it's not actually actively avoiding anything yet.

I also wonder if this feeling will still exist when using someone like DJ who might have the fastest sways in the game. His sways might feel very responsive so it's worth testing.

If the striking of UFC2 is anything to go on, it'll probably not be a problem for the flyweights. But significantly worse than what we experienced in the beta for the heavier weight classes.

Hopefully I'm wrong and all of this is fixed by the time the game comes out..

Now on the question of whether it represents what head movement is in real life. I guess it depends.

Can you evade shots in real life with head movement? Yeah
Can you evade shots in EA UFC 3 with head movement? Yeah
Can you use head movement purely defensively in real life? Yea
Can you use head movement purely defensively in UFC3? Yeah
Can you evade multiple shots in real life with head movement? Yeah
Can you evade multiple shots in UFC3 with head movement? Yeah
Can you make a tactical error and lean into a strike in real life? Yeah
Can you make a tactical error and lean into a strike in UFC3? Yeah

Basically, UFC3 captures the soul of head movement....

What about offensively? (think:Setting up pull counters by leaning in, etc)

The issues we notice are purely "Feel-wise"... If this was a boxing game, it'd be unimaginable to not have full 360 control of the fighters head movement, but in MMA

I don't think I agree with that. Even on paper it seems to me that the current system is fundamentally lacking.

But hey, responsiveness would go a long way. If they manage to address that maybe it won't feel as bad. We'll see.

Another thing is that... If head movement was done as realistically as possible, I guarantee most people would hate it... they'd say it's too hard, too strict and that would open up a whole new can of worms.

I'd love it..

Still, that was a general point about the illusion of the physics-based systems. This is a hard thing to explain, so I'm glad Martial Mind did the heavy lifting there, with those fancy pics and such. If Haz could see, other probably will, too.

I understood what you were saying Altair but that's not inherent to a physics based system. It was just a problem in UFC2. I thought you understood that but I'm starting to realize even people on my side didn't know..

You solve that issue by adding proper head tracking to strikes. There were no angles in FNC that avoided all punches (afaik). There weren't even angles that avoided certain punches all the time. If you timed your sway with a cross, you dodge it. But if you keep your head in that tilted position and they throw another cross, they'll punch down at an angle and hit you right on the nose.

It's an honest system if done right.

[kehlis]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'm growing extremely tired of posts like this.

If you want to make a point, go for it.

If you want to just post a picture, don't post at all.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

That's probably because the consecutive slips have a tiny niche in UFC 3. The only use I see for them is for when you lean and the guy doesn't strike, so you change the direction to actually slip the strike that comes at you. That's extremely specific and will probably only happen a few times on some very high level matches.


I would like to see videos or gifs as evidence that FNC was very different.

Still, that was a general point about the illusion of the physics-based systems. This is a hard thing to explain, so I'm glad Martial Mind did the heavy lifting there, with those fancy pics and such. If Haz could see, other probably will, too.

Martial Mind’s post had nothing to do with fight night. He was also off because there’s definitely more to head movement then the things he mentioned. It’s main benefit is opening counter opportunities. It does that by utilizing all kinds of angles to slip strikes.The tracking in EA UFC 2 was bogus when people swayed. Haz is the only one arguing in favor of it. The only issue with fight night’s head movement was the spammy 360 movements which im not a fan of.

Im cool with the current system with added fluidity and more directions. More angles to dodge strikes and create counter windows.

Solid Altar are you against the 8 directional head sway wth 30% deadzone?

I still think that was by far the best compromise

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The tracking in EA UFC 2 was bogus when people swayed. Haz is the only one arguing in favor of it.

Whoa now. I'm definitely not arguing in favor of UFC 2's headmovement over UFC 3's.

Both systems are incomplete.

What i'm looking for is something like a combination of UFC 3's moving flick system, with a UFC 2/ FNC style supplementary system.

I was only using clips from UFC 2 to use as an example of fluid headmovement, because those are the clips I have access to, and because it is a decent representation of what I'm looking for. I can't really argue against tracking issues, but as stated by others, FN had much better tracking. That's the type of system i'm interested in, to back up what we have in UFC 3, with the moving flick system.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Whoa now. I'm definitely not arguing in favor of UFC 2's headmovement over UFC 3's.

Both systems are incomplete.

What i'm looking for is something like a combination of UFC 3's moving flick system, with a UFC 2/ FNC style supplementary system.

I was only using clips from UFC 2 to use as an example of fluid headmovement, because those are the clips I have access to, and because it is a decent representation of what I'm looking for.

Omg lol

I coulda sworn you just spent like 10 pages arguing how great it was lol

Either way glad we’re all on the same page

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Regarding the tracking, I'm not just talking about your clip. I've seen it happen in many of the fights I've been in. Its an issue with UFC 2.

If your talking about strike tracking, then I utterly agree that UFC 2's headmovement wasn't viable due to strikes that should have missed connection, and vice versa.

What I wanna know is if this is because UFC used a "Digital" accuracy system vs an "Analouge one? (I put quotes as I believe these are the terms used to differentiate FNC's accuracy system over the UFC series)


The more I think about it, the less I think we will see a truly FNC level headmovement system adapted for MMA just because as we saw with UFC 2, dynamic, 360* headnovement kind of nessecitates (sorry about my grammar) an analouge, physics based accuracy system.

I don't think the current system is inheritedly bad, I just think it lacks a lot of options, you can't bait short slips easily. You've gotta commit to every sway, personally I'm in the 8-slip boat over 4.

I mean, optimally, I'd love to see the FNC system adapted.
But it wouldn't work unless the entire accuracy system was overhauled I believe, if it wasn't, we'd be in a similar place to UFC 2, which had 360* dynamic headmovement, yes, and it was responsive, yes. But it was not good.

TLR: I think we'd need to return to FNCs physics based analouge accuracy system before proper 360* headmovement will work properly within the UFC series.
In a digital system, to my understanding, it'd just be too many variables.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say they should do this for 3, but consider it for 4 atleast, maybe)

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I understood what you were saying Altair but that's not inherent to a physics based system. It was just a problem in UFC2. I thought you understood that but I'm starting to realize even people on my side didn't know..

You solve that issue by adding proper head tracking to strikes. There were no angles in FNC that avoided all punches (afaik). There weren't even angles that avoided certain punches all the time. If you timed your sway with a cross, you dodge it. But if you keep your head in that tilted position and they throw another cross, they'll punch down at an angle and hit you right on the nose.

It's an honest system if done right.

What happens if you keep moving? Do you expect some shenanigans to happen, kinda like in that Haz clip, or is some serious specificity required?