Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What happens if you keep moving? Do you expect some shenanigans to happen, kinda like in that Haz clip, or is some serious specificity required?

Nothing but crisp technical head movement in my clip.


____________________

If you keep moving, randomly, without intent, you'll get smashed.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What happens if you keep moving? Do you expect some shenanigans to happen, kinda like in that Haz clip, or is some serious specificity required?

A few things

1) That specific type of movement would've gotten him in trouble. It was slow and he leaned into a punch. And there were just way too many punches to avoid while stationary..

2) Punches are quicker than head movement, a few are bound to catch you, even with full head sways. Which is why most people held up their guard up too. Even though that significantly decreased the range of motion of your head movement, the increased range of motion wasn't worth the risk of keeping your hands down when someone was combination punching.

The only time I'd sway without having my hands up was for single strike counter punching.

3) If someone for whatever reason had trouble hitting you they'd likely rip a power hook or uppercut (you had a haymaker modifier) to your body, if they catch you mid-lean, it stuns you for a split second and allows them to then throw a shot at your head.

4) But usually, you'd probably just get caught by the 2nd, 3rd and/or 4th punch. You're not gonna Matrix your way out of trouble.


Example of a guy spamming head movement and getting caught.



At 2:48 on the clock Ali throws a left hook > right hook combination. The guy he leans back on the left hook, tries to sway the second hook but he's too slow (which is why you should keep your damn hands up). He gets caught by the right hook which stuns him and prevents further head movement, he then gets hit by another right hook that wobbles him and then the guy knocks him down with a few more hooks.
----------


This dummy got hurt, but instead of covering up he thought he was in the matrix. You see him try circular head movement but he eats a few uppercuts instead. Then throws one of his own out of sheer desperation, but that only meant he'd eat more shots.


Basically, unless you were trying to counter punch or were caught on the ropes, proper footwork was a better, more reliable and less risky way to avoid punches.



This wasn't a thing:

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What I saw on the first clip was an inconsistency against the slip. I don't think it speaks well of FNC's head movement. And it might be a specific issue with consecutive slips. He did try to slip the follow up punch, btw but he leaned back and stopped there.

The second clip was indeed very weird. It seemed like he kept getting caught at the start-up of his head movement and just kept trying again and again, instead of blocking. I actually think something kinda like this could happen in UFC 3, too.

Thanks for posting the clips.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What I saw on the first clip was an inconsistency against the slip.

You'll have to explain what you mean by this.

I don't think it speaks well of FNC's head movement. And it might be a specific issue with consecutive slips. He did try to slip the follow up punch, btw but he leaned back and stopped there.

He was making circling motions and was likely going to slip to the side then lean back. But because he was too slow and got caught by the 2nd hook after trying to slip it to the side his side lean got cancelled and he just leaned back.

That said, because he's a terrible player, he didn't react in time and just kept leaning back like a silly person so he got rocked and KD'd.

The second clip was indeed very weird. It seemed like he kept getting caught at the start-up of his head movement and just kept trying again and again, instead of blocking. I actually think something kinda like this could happen in UFC 3, too.

Thanks for posting the clips.

They're terrible players so these aren't the best examples. He didn't just get caught at the start, he was also already rocked so his range of motion for head movement dropped significantly. He couldn't lean as far or as quick but he tried to anyway. That's what happens.

I just looked at a few YT clips and this was the best I could find in 5 minutes..

I'd tailor make you a video of whatever you wanted to see if I still had my ps3. Sadly, I gave it away years ago..

I'll happily answer questions though.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You'll have to explain what you mean by this.



He was making circling motions and was likely going to slip to the side then lean back. But because he was too slow and got caught by the 2nd hook after trying to slip it to the side his side lean got cancelled and he just leaned back.

That said, because he's a terrible player, he didn't react in time and just kept leaning back like a silly person so he got rocked and KD'd.



They're terrible players so these aren't the best examples. He didn't just get caught at the start, he was also already rocked so his range of motion for head movement dropped significantly. He couldn't lean as far or as quick but he tried to anyway. That's what happens.

I just looked at a few YT clips and this was the best I could find in 5 minutes..

I'd tailor make you a video of whatever you wanted to see if I still had my ps3. Sadly, I gave it away years ago..

I'll happily answer questions though.

By inconsistency I mean that he used a good direction (ducking a hook) and apparently with good timing. But mother physics still wanted him to suffer.

The second hook he ate was pretty clearly because he just stopped at the lean.

And for the second clip, thanks for the information that he was rocked. That should explain his "slow start-up".

Maybe other folks can post more examples. A favorable exaple would be of fighters slipping attacks in the proper direction. And an even more favorable example would be of someone getting tagged by leaning in a bad direction (with a "good timing").

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YfqWlRm6O8&feature=youtu.be

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

1:04 has a nice double slip!

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

By inconsistency I mean that he used a good direction (ducking a hook) and apparently with good timing. But mother physics still wanted him to suffer.

His timing wasn't good. He got hit on the ear. Also, he didn't duck he leaned to his right and down. If he was a bit quicker he'd have been fine, but again, these guys aren't that good.

The second hook he ate was pretty clearly because he just stopped at the lean.

Correct.

And for the second clip, thanks for the information that he was rocked. That should explain his "slow start-up".

Yup.

And an even more favorable example would be of someone getting tagged by leaning in a bad direction (with a "good timing").

Good timing, terrible direction, terrible positioning



Good timing, good direction, good distance management

Slowmotion in case you missed it


The light flash indicates a counter punch btw.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

One more cause why not.

Leaned forward to invite an uppercut, timed the guy hard and countered.

[emmdeekay]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Just look at the picture I posted. The range and angle on his hook are not even close to being able to hit me.

If he throw a longer overhand, then yes he would have, but he throw tight hooks, and whiffed. That's 100% on him.



The hook is too high and tight to hit me.

There no way that punch is landing. It's not even close.

Angles. Distance. Subtlety.

This is why I disagree with 360 head movement. You're advocating for an analog defense against a digital attack.

The guy has chosen the correct option to punish you leaning to your right ( a left hook). But because there's only one left hook animation and your head movement avoids the arc of the strike it's frustrating.

Angles, Distance, Subtlety is a cute campaign slogan but it needs to be all or nothing. If you want 360 degree head movement you need 360 degree punching to counteract it. Where does it end?

I think we should map Dominick Cruz' feet to holding LB and moving the analog sticks because Angles, Distance, Subtlety.

I think Demian Maia should have total control over all his limbs on the ground because Angles, Distance, Subtlety.

There's been games before with analog head movement and I don't think they've been good. They're trying something new, which I think is interesting and before the game is out there's a very vocal minority of people on here claiming they speak for whole community and that it's rubbish and needs changing back.

Chill out and give it a try maybe?

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

By inconsistency I mean that he used a good direction (ducking a hook) and apparently with good timing. But mother physics still wanted him to suffer.

The second hook he ate was pretty clearly because he just stopped at the lean.

And for the second clip, thanks for the information that he was rocked. That should explain his "slow start-up".

Maybe other folks can post more examples. A favorable exaple would be of fighters slipping attacks in the proper direction. And an even more favorable example would be of someone getting tagged by leaning in a bad direction (with a "good timing").

Can you please stop with this “proper direction”? That’s not how head movement works. It’s not rock paper scissors. Ducks dont always beat hooks, leans dont always beat hook. Leans especially dont work when fighters are right in front of each other if the attacker steps into his punch.

Timing, angles, distance all matter way more than the specific movement you’re doing. That’s why FN head movement and tracking is way better and more realistic.

That said most MMA fighters dont have that level of head movement so I can understand it not being in the game. Especially considering the current tracking system.

And I keep asking but dont recall a response. Are you okay with 8 way slips, a 30th deadzone, and the ability to chain slips faster(cancel recovery frames straight into another slip if ratings allow)

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Maybe other folks can post more examples. A favorable exaple would be of fighters slipping attacks in the proper direction. And an even more favorable example would be of someone getting tagged by leaning in a bad direction (with a "good timing").

Aw man, if I didn't have to record my Xbox using a phone, I'd send you a clip of me basically playing just like Naz, hands down, baiting, cocky as a mother****er and untouchable (because Barrera isn't in game)

I still remember outboxing and slipping 99% of Joe Fraizers punches as Ali. Then leaning into that damn left hook late in round 6 and that was that, if only the 360 had a capture feature.

If you have a ps3/Xbox 360, I'd honestly recommend picking up a copy, you could see a 1000 clips, but until you actually play it, and feel it in your hands its not the same.

From what I played of the beta, UFC 3 isn't a bad system. It's just different.
But Fight Night still does it better, maybe its personal preference, I prefer the analouge system at this point.

Maybe after 3 months with UFC 3's head movement, I'll wonder how I ever lived without it,
I highly doubt it, but I won't rule it out.

By my point is, I'd recommend buying/borrowing a copy of FNC and just playing it yourself, I think I read you say you hadn't played it since it was in Beta.

It'd let you personally get a feel for how baiting, and the ability to put the exact distance you want on a slip (and feel your counter be faster for it)

Not to mention to this day, that game has those "Uncany valley" moments where you had to immediately pause, go to the instant replay and watch exactly what just happened, it cab look, amazing, to this day. Utterly amazing.

All this said, I'm not trying to say "bring FNC headmovement to UFC 3" because I don't think it works in a digital system. UFC 2 proved that. I think UFC 3's headmovement, with more options and maybe the ability to throw full/half distance slips to allow some element of distance management in headmovement, would probably be the best you could do on digital, hopefully I have to eat these words though.

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

And I keep asking but dont recall a response. Are you okay with 8 way slips, a 30th deadzone, and the ability to chain slips faster(cancel recovery frames straight into another slip if ratings allow)

I know your not asking me, but I think this is a great compromise for UFC 3.

Analog Accuracy/360* HM, while I prefer them myself, aren't coming to this iteration, the best we can do is hopefully get them to reconsider it for UFC 4, I do think 360* + Digital accuracy = UFC 2, and call me crazy.

I personally rate headmovement in combat sports games as such,
UD3/UFC 1>UFC 2>UFC 3>FNC, in order of worst to best.

I realise not many fighters utilise 360* headmovement often. But they do utilise a lot of the other features FNC's system allowed, Such as distance control on slips. And baiting with slight movements that you don't have to commit too.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I know your not asking me, but I think this is a great compromise for UFC 3.

Analog Accuracy/360* HM, while I prefer them myself, aren't coming to this iteration, the best we can do is hopefully get them to reconsider it for UFC 4, I do think 360* + Digital accuracy = UFC 2, and call me crazy.

I personally rate headmovement in combat sports games as such,
UD3/UFC 1>UFC 2>UFC 3>FNC, in order of worst to best.

I realise not many fighters utilise 360* headmovement often. But they do utilise a lot of the other features FNC's system allowed, Such as distance control on slips. And baiting with slight movements that you don't have to commit too.

I agree with this ranking. UD3 and UFC1 were just trollishly awful. UFC2's was usable at least, but still robotic and stiff. UFC3 still feels robotic and stiff but is at least reliable and can be used on the move. In its best moments, when using stationary leans, UFC3 sorta starts to approach FNC's feel though it is still pretty far off. FNC allowed for a high degree of creativity and felt organic. Its only real shortcomings were that it was sometimes inconsistent and couldn't be used on the move (we had the awful 'bob and weave' command instead).

But yeah, I'm glad you guys are speaking up, because I often felt like the "lone lunatic" on the GameChanger team shouting FNC's head movement to the rooftops. It's encouraging to see other people who are of the same mindset as me speaking up unprompted. I've had these exact same sorts of debates with Solid_Altair.

For the record, I have suggested to GPD that we be allowed to initiate the stationary lean the FNC way (by holding down the left trigger and moving the left stick) so that we can use our right thumb exclusively for the face buttons, but I don't think he is convinced of how valuable this would be. I don't want to get rid of the right stick control either, I just want left trigger + left stick to initiate the foot plant stationary lean.

Would you be on board with this?

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The head movement “spin” or spam was also horrible to look at.

Not sure I’d want to see some Anderson Silva user rotating their body all over the place.

Maybe make it so that each time you chain a slip it adds a little but more recovery time before being allowed to slip.

But then you cant do what Lawler did against RDA

Gah lol. There’s definitely no perfect system for a video game