Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I agree with this ranking. UD3 and UFC1 were just trollishly awful. UFC2's was usable at least, but still robotic and stiff. UFC3 still feels robotic and stiff but is at least reliable and can be used on the move. In its best moments, when using stationary leans, UFC3 sorta starts to approach FNC's feel though it is still pretty far off. FNC allowed for a high degree of creativity and felt organic. Its only real shortcomings were that it was sometimes inconsistent and couldn't be used on the move (we had the awful 'bob and weave' command instead).

But yeah, I'm glad you guys are speaking up, because I often felt like the "lone lunatic" on the GameChanger team shouting FNC's head movement to the rooftops. It's encouraging to see other people who are of the same mindset as me speaking up unprompted. I've had these exact same sorts of debates with Solid_Altair.

For the record, I have suggested to GPD that we be allowed to initiate the stationary lean the FNC way (by holding down the left trigger and moving the left stick) so that we can use our right thumb exclusively for the face buttons, but I don't think he is convinced of how valuable this would be. I don't want to get rid of the right stick control either, I just want left trigger + left stick to initiate the foot plant stationary lean.

Would you be on board with this?

I.. pretty much agree completely with that evaluation of the games.
Yeah, I think its the creativity of the FNC system that I miss the most, you could learn the basics and be fine, but there was the option to some incredibly intricate things, it just has more layers than UFC 3's.

As for L2+LS to stationary lean. As an alternative to RS, but not a replacement, I'd be all for it, though I could see it having its own issues (mainly you'd have to take your finger off L2 immediately after either swaying, or your opponent whiffing off a sustained sway to be able to land a headshot)

Or it may even reqiure the body strike modifier to be changed, how would you be able to throw an advancing jab to the body if L2 also initiates lean, there are a few reasons I can see them not wanting to do it.

I also kinda wonder if the start up frames would still make this feel delayed.
I found my reaction times on loading up a strike off a slip at the moment I saw I'd made my opponent whiff were fine, I couldn't put my finger on why however, I believe it was the start up frames (which I initially thought were input lag)

However, these were always limited to appropriate strikes contextual to the slip, too.

If I'm being 100% honest, I'd have no issue if this change happened, but if it was just an alternative way of doing the 4-slip system, I don't honestly know if it'll make much a difference, going off my experience with the beta,

I can't say if I think it would truly benefit the game until I play more of UFC 3.

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The head movement “spin” or spam was also horrible to look at.

Not sure I’d want to see some Anderson Silva user rotating their body all over the place.

Maybe make it so that each time you chain a slip it adds a little but more recovery time before being allowed to slip.

But then you cant do what Lawler did against RDA

Gah lol. There’s definitely no perfect system for a video game

That "spin" is because the game automatically cuts to a new angle once you hit a certain level of rotation on the RS, this is something a 360* or even an 8-point slip system would alleviate.

Reason they "Spin" is because there is a preset animation of the fighter moving to the next slip position that has to play inbetween each predefined angle.

It's partially due to the fact we have no control over the speed at which we change angles.

And there are better systems, but your right, no perfect ones.

Edit: Oh, and I agree. It looked awful.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I.. pretty much agree completely with that evaluation of the games.
Yeah, I think its the creativity of the FNC system that I miss the most, you could learn the basics and be fine, but there was the option to some incredibly intricate things, it just has more layers than UFC 3's.

As for L2+LS to stationary lean. As an alternative to RS, but not a replacement, I'd be all for it, though I could see it having its own issues (mainly you'd have to take your finger off L2 immediately after either swaying, or your opponent whiffing off a sustained sway to be able to land a headshot)

Or it may even reqiure the body strike modifier to be changed, how would you be able to throw an advancing jab to the body if L2 also initiates lean, there are a few reasons I can see them not wanting to do it.

I also kinda wonder if the start up frames would still make this feel delayed.
I found my reaction times on loading up a strike off a slip at the moment I saw I'd made my opponent whiff were fine, I couldn't put my finger on why however, I believe it was the start up frames (which I initially thought were input lag)

However, these were always limited to appropriate strikes contextual to the slip, too.

If I'm being 100% honest, I'd have no issue if this change happened, but if it was just an alternative way of doing the 4-slip system, I don't honestly know if it'll make much a difference, going off my experience with the beta,

I can't say if I think it would truly benefit the game until I play more of UFC 3.

In FNC, the left trigger was also the body strike modifier in addition to being the lean modifier.

You wouldn't need to let go of LT to throw a head strike. In FNC, you would throw a head strike if you were leaning backward AT ALL, even while holding LT (in other words it wouldn't make you lurch forward from a back lean to throw a body hook. You'd just stay in the back lean and throw a head hook).

You only threw body shots if you held LT neutral or while crouching (pushing the stick forward).

You could also throw moving body shots in FNC by just walking forward and pressing LT + punch at the same time.

To make this work, devs would have to give LT + Strike input priority. So if I'm walking forward, I can't just hold LT at all times and then try to throw a body kick... it would make me lean. but I can walk forward and then, when I want to throw the body kick, press LT + kick and still do the moving kick.

Another advantage of this system (if it were replicated faithfully from FNC) is that you'd be able to interrupt your own lunges and plant your feet whenever and wherever you wanted. So let's say a traditional forward lunge carries you 2 feet to the opponent. With this system, as in FNC, you'd be able to lunge forward and interrupt the lunge with a foot plant after 1 foot. In other words forward dash, hold LT and lean back mid-way through. Now you've interrupted the dash and planted your feet exactly where you want them, allowing you to control your spacing better.

I wouldn't want it to replace the existing system - I'd just want it as a compliment. Right Stick head movement is still the superior input for moving slips by far. But it just makes stationary inside fighting far too clunky in my opinion. To do something as simple as leaning to the side, throwing a jab, and staying in the lean, you have to flick the right stick, move your thumb and hit the punch button, and then flick the right stick again very quickly... whereas with LT + LS, you never have to move your thumbs or do any double inputs.

Ideally, I want 360 head movement or an 8 way compromise system implemented, and I'm not saying we should stop arguing for that -- but I do believe the right stick input method really hobbles inside fighting and that allowing the LT + LS to initiate it would make a big difference absent any other changes.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

This is why I disagree with 360 head movement. You're advocating for an analog defense against a digital attack.

You're against 360 head movement because one person liked UFC2's system?

The guy has chosen the correct option to punish you leaning to your right ( a left hook). But because there's only one left hook animation and your head movement avoids the arc of the strike it's frustrating.

Everyone except Haz agrees with this.

Angles, Distance, Subtlety is a cute campaign slogan but it needs to be all or nothing. If you want 360 degree head movement you need 360 degree punching to counteract it. Where does it end?

Where practical limitations become a problem.

I think we should map Dominick Cruz' feet to holding LB and moving the analog sticks because Angles, Distance, Subtlety.

Given that we only have a finite amount of buttons to map, no. It's not at all comparable though.

I think Demian Maia should have total control over all his limbs on the ground because Angles, Distance, Subtlety.

That would be favorable, but not just Demian Maia, everyone.

However, again, due to the practical limitations of the controllers, this is not even remotely possible.

There's been games before with analog head movement and I don't think they've been good.

What was bad about them?

Can you please stop with this “proper direction”?

I agree with you, but what he's simply asking if it's possible to fail when you keep moving your head. Which it is.

The head movement “spin” or spam was also horrible to look at.

Not sure I’d want to see some Anderson Silva user rotating their body all over the place.

What I find worse is people who literally only tornado, capoeira & showtime kick. But we're not going to limit those either.

Don't restrict unrealistic behavior. Discourage it with unfavorable risk-reward.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

By inconsistency I mean that he used a good direction (ducking a hook) and apparently with good timing. But mother physics still wanted him to suffer.

I looked at the video again, just to be sure. He definitely tried to move his head, but he got hit in the back of the head/top of his head.

It wasn't a bug or inconsistency, he just got caught



Exactly the same way McGregor caught Poirier and finished him because of it.

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

In FNC, the left trigger was also the body strike modifier in addition to being the lean modifier.

You wouldn't need to let go of LT to throw a head strike. In FNC, you would throw a head strike if you were leaning backward AT ALL, even while holding LT (in other words it wouldn't make you lurch forward from a back lean to throw a body hook. You'd just stay in the back lean and throw a head hook).

You only threw body shots if you held LT neutral or while crouching (pushing the stick forward).

You could also throw moving body shots in FNC by just walking forward and pressing LT + punch at the same time.

To make this work, devs would have to give LT + Strike input priority. So if I'm walking forward, I can't just hold LT at all times and then try to throw a body kick... it would make me lean. but I can walk forward and then, when I want to throw the body kick, press LT + kick and still do the moving kick.

Another advantage of this system (if it were replicated faithfully from FNC) is that you'd be able to interrupt your own lunges and plant your feet whenever and wherever you wanted. So let's say a traditional forward lunge carries you 2 feet to the opponent. With this system, as in FNC, you'd be able to lunge forward and interrupt the lunge with a foot plant after 1 foot. In other words forward dash, hold LT and lean back mid-way through. Now you've interrupted the dash and planted your feet exactly where you want them, allowing you to control your spacing better.

I wouldn't want it to replace the existing system - I'd just want it as a compliment. Right Stick head movement is still the superior input for moving slips by far. But it just makes stationary inside fighting far too clunky in my opinion. To do something as simple as leaning to the side, throwing a jab, and staying in the lean, you have to flick the right stick, move your thumb and hit the punch button, and then flick the right stick again very quickly... whereas with LT + LS, you never have to move your thumbs or do any double inputs.

Ideally, I want 360 head movement or an 8 way compromise system implemented, and I'm not saying we should stop arguing for that -- but I do believe the right stick input method really hobbles inside fighting and that allowing the LT + LS to initiate it would make a big difference absent any other changes.

I didn't think about it like that with lunges, that would be tasty.

But overall, I was thinking of it in the context of just how that modifer would've worked in the beta if it was just slapped into what I played, not in the context of if they made a heap of changes to accomodate it (which, I'm all for)


But, I'd love to see it done like that. Hell yes. Count me in.

[johnmangala]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

We should be able to shift while moving our head like so


And grab moving heads like so (head control please)


The way Ferguson snatched a front headlock off Vannata slipping would be appreciated as well.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

We should be able to shift while moving our head like so

I'm pretty sure we can move the way Overeem in UFC3.. Not sure what you're asking..

And grab moving heads like so (head control please)

The way Ferguson snatched a front headlock off Vannata slipping would be appreciated as well.

That has less to do with head movement and more with clinching. But I agree and I think plenty others do too that it's indeed underdeveloped..

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

- Head movement should feel more responsive

- There should be minimal slips on the outside. Whether you can interrupt the sway or not to throw back a straight shouldn't really matter (I haven't tested how reliable this is or seen how it looks). The aesthetic is off. If I decide not to throw a counter I still have to sway all the way to the side. I want to be able to slip a bit and then go down further as well. It would help aesthetics and realism a ton particularly. It's basic head movement.

The most important thing from a gameplay perspective is that the head movement should just feel more responsive and easier to use. I'm not sure why it feels as slow/clunky as it does but yeah.

Whether everybody needs 360 head movement or not... The idea that anyone is happy with 4 directional movements for head movement is strange to me. More range of motion and control is needed to enhance the gameplay experience. As well as responsiveness. It just feels bad in general. It's a shame some others aren't seeing this.

I want the game to be balanced too. I don't want head movement to be easy mode. But with my time spent playing the beta... It seemed much more useful as a way of initiating offence than anything else. Namely, moving forward, and ducking and uppercutting.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I looked at the video again, just to be sure. He definitely tried to move his head, but he got hit in the back of the head/top of his head.

It wasn't a bug or inconsistency, he just got caught



Exactly the same way McGregor caught Poirier and finished him because of it.

The inconsistency was that the guy got caught while ducking a hook with (seemingly) good timing. It's just about the thing not being tuned.

If you want to argue for chaotic stuff like this by finding real life examples of oddities, you will probably manage to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that the inconsistency in the game screws the meritocracy for the players.

BTW, the Conor vs Poirier example can be interpreted as Poirier slipping early and trying to strike back to soon, therefore relinquishing the evasion frames. The timing was very different from the FNC example.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The inconsistency was that the guy got caught while ducking a hook with (seemingly) good timing. It's just about the thing not being tuned.

If you want to argue for chaotic stuff like this by finding real life examples of oddities, you will probably manage to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that the inconsistency in the game screws the meritocracy for the players.

BTW, the Conor vs Poirier example can be interpreted as Poirier slipping early and trying to strike back to soon, therefore relinquishing the evasion frames. The timing was very different from the FNC example.

That’s neither “odd” or “inconsistent”

Striking and head movement is chaotic lol. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make. You dont auto dodge strikes based on how you move because strikes come at varying speeds/angles.

A rock paper scissor system doesnt make sense

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'm glad we cleared that up. Yall want chaos!

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'm glad we cleared that up. Yall want chaos!

Head movement is dangerous precisely because of this.

I would love it if strikes came at all types of angles/speeds/distances and we had full 360 control to dodge it.

It would be a controlled chaos.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The inconsistency was that the guy got caught while ducking a hook with (seemingly) good timing. It's just about the thing not being tuned.

It's not as simple as:

Timed duck > hook.

Rather:

Timed, spaced, properly executed duck > some hooks.

He got caught because he messed up. If he moved his head down and to the right, then rolled back to the center he would've been fine. He could've also taken half a step backwards and then do what he did and he'd be fine too.

It doesn't need tuning, it's just actually nuanced, which is something you for some reason can't wrap your head around.

If you want to argue for chaotic stuff like this by finding real life examples of oddities, you will probably manage to do so.

How is this an oddity? Guy doesn't slip fast or far enough, gets clipped.

But that doesn't change the fact that the inconsistency in the game screws the meritocracy for the players.

A) Your head gets hit by a fist, you take damage.
B) Your head doesn't get hit, you do not take damage.

How is that an inconsistency? It's as binary as it gets.


How you have to move your head to avoid a strike depends entirely on the positioning of your opponent, speed, timing and angle of the punch thrown and your head positioning at the time the punch was thrown.

Yes, this requires significantly more awareness of your positioning, your opponents positioning, your head movement range and speed, your opponents reach etc. Because all of that factors into what the optimal way to move your head is.

It's actually nuanced.

BTW, the Conor vs Poirier example can be interpreted as Poirier slipping early and trying to strike back to soon, therefore relinquishing the evasion frames. The timing was very different from the FNC example.

Now you're just making things up Altair. There's no arguing with reality.

You can clearly see him duck, with his guard up. He wasn't trying to attack at all. He tried to duck the hook and roll to his right, but he misjudged how far he needed to duck fully avoid McGregor's punch. Or he underestimated McGregors accuracy & speed. Either way, he got hit because he made a mistake, not because of "chaos & inconsistencies".

Actual head movement is not a simple A > B > C > A formula. It's a game of tag. Even though Poirier picked "the right option" he got tagged in the head anyway because he failed in the execution.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I seriously saw him starting an attack, just like you can do in th egame and get caught very early in it... when it may not even look like you're starting one.