Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Are you sure about SWBF2? I recall sales being down by 70% compared to the last game. This was mid December I think. Surely a lot of this was attributed towards some of the design decisions though. I think its a fun game when you look past all the microtransactions the game had.

NPD hasnt released the December sales numbers yet so no one knows. They released the November sales numbers and it was #2 after COD.

https://venturebeat.com/2017/12/14/november-npd-2017-call-of-duty-wwii-leads-2-7-billion-month-as-sales-are-up-30-year-over-year/

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The bit I don't quite get in the "Concessions for casuals" things is a lot of folk saying casuals kinda want a more arcade Esq fighter over a realistic one.

This is literally the opposite experience to what I've had talking to people I consider casual gamers and even more casual MMA fans, out of the 10 people who I showed the beta too, they all praised the increased realism, they didn't quite get what was going on at all times, no, but of that 10, 5 had played UFC 2, all 5 preferred UFC 3, the 5 who hadn't played the series before were surprised when I said UFC 3 was actually a big step towards realism (when compared with UFC 1 & 2)

From my viewpoint, people see a UFC game. They kinda expect it to be a realistic fighter over an arcade Esq fighter, I don't believe the game needs to be dumbed down in any way to applease a casual audience, it just needs to be explained in game better imo.

This isn't a reply to anyone specifically or a dig at casuals, just my experience with the casual market and UFC 3,

TL;DR Casuals I've talked to enjoy the increased focus on realism and sim in UFC 3.

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The bit I don't quite get in the "Concessions for casuals" things is a lot of folk saying they kinda want a more arcade Esq fighter over a realistic one.

This is literally the opposite experience to what I've had talking to people I consider casual gamers and even more casual MMA fans, out of the 10 people who I showed the beta too, they all praised the increased realism, they didn't quite get what was going on at all times, no, but of that 10, 5 had played UFC 2, all 5 preferred UFC 3, the 5 who hadn't played the series before were surprised when I said UFC 3 was actually a big step towards realism (when compared with UFC 1 & 2)

From my viewpoint, people see a UFC game. They kinda expect it to be a realistic fighter over an arcade Esq fighter, I don't believe the game needs to be dumbed down in any way to applease a casual audience, it just needs to be explained in game better imo.

This isn't a reply to anyone specifically or a dig at casuals, just my experience with the casual market and UFC 3,

TL;DR Casuals I've talked to enjoy the increased focus on realism and sim in UFC 3.

"Concessions for casuals" does not mean people want an arcade focused game. UFC 3 is a very realistic game when it comes to gameplay. If the devs decide to keep the meters in the game because they have data that casual fans want them in the game...that doesnt all of a sudden make the game less realistic.

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

"Concessions for casuals" does not mean people want an arcade focused game. UFC 3 is a very realistic game when it comes to gameplay. If the devs decide to keep the meters in the game because they have data that casual fans want them in the game...that doesnt all of a sudden make the game less realistic.

... But it would make it more realistic if there wern't any way to see your opponent's meters though, so I'm not sure where you're getting at. Having them automatically makes it less realistic than if it were removed. Unless you're comparing the game as it is now and then saying if no changes are done to them then it's not less realistic than it was, then eh yeah, sure. But I think I'm just missing something.

Anyway, it's also not just a question of whether or not it poses more challenge to the players, but that it gives a realistic intake to the people playing that you can't have a 100% notion of what your opponent state is, whether it is his cardio or how damaged he is. Irl, there's auditory and visual cues to aid you, but so does in-game. Even if the actual changes comes only at 50% in-game, same as in real life, you wouldn't know until he show clear signs of being gassed, be it from lesser volume of strikes being thrown, strikes having lesser strength behind them, heavy breathing, sweating profusely, general body language that the stance of your oponnent provides.. And even then, that wouldn't happened to a trained athlete at 75% anyway.

As for the strength leaving them the more they are gassed, you can tell by your own meters. And that's without counting the fact that it would bring a much needed slower pace to the game seeing how you wouldn't know for a fact the moment his guard is about to go down, or if he still hasn't recovered from the precedent knockdown. It puts doubt in your mind, and drives you to either go all in, or go at it in a smarter and technical way.

It gives you a more realistic experience than with your opponent's meters whichever way I see it.

But why are we even talking about meters in this thread in the first place anyway?

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

... But it would make more realistic if there wern't any way to see your opponent's meters though, so I'm not sure where you're getting at.

It's not just a question of whether it poses more challenge as to the player, but a realistic understanding to the people playing that you can't have a 100% notion of what your opponent state is, whether it is his cardio or how damaged he is. Irl, there's auditory and visual cues to aid you, but so doe in-game. Even if the actual changes comes only at 50% in-game, same as in real life, you wouldn't know until he show clear signs of being gassed, be it from a lesser volume of strikes, strikes having lesser strength behind them, heavy breathing, sweating profusely, general body language that the stance of your oponnent provides.. And that wouldn't happened to a trained athlete at 75% anyway.

As for the strength leaving them the more they are gassed, you can tell by your own meters. And that's without counting the fact that it would bring a much needed slower pace to the game seeing how you wouldn't know for a fact the moment his guard is about to go down, or if he still hasn't recovered from the precedent knockdown. It puts doubt in your mind, and drives you to either go all in, or go at it in a smarter and technical way.

It does give you a more realistic intake than with your opponent's meters whichever way I see it.

But why are we even talking about meters in this thread in the first place?

What I'm getting at is the game is very realistic right now even with arcade elements like meters. Could it be more realistic? Absolutely. That doesnt mean that if EA decides to make concessions for casuals it equals not wanting a realistic game.

My argument has nothing to do with whether removing meters is good for the game or makes it more realistic.

My argument is that while casuals may like and appreciate alot of realistic elements about the game that doesnt mean that they will appreciate EVERY idea that the hardcore community presents in order to make the game more realistic.

[MaccaC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

How has a thread about head movement devolved into people posting essays about how many employees other game developers use? what is this.

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What I'm getting at is the game is very realistic right now even with arcade elements like meters. Could it be more realistic? Absolutely. That doesnt mean that if EA decides to make concessions for casuals it equals not wanting a realistic game.

My argument has nothing to do with whether removing meters is good for the game or makes it more realistic.

My argument is that while casuals may like and appreciate alot of realistic elements about the game that doesnt mean that they will appreciate EVERY idea that the hardcore community presents in order to make the game more realistic.

By why do you think those concessions for casuals are absolutely needed? When let's say, it is not proven that they stick to the franchise because of those meters per say, or the head movement being simplistic. Why isn't possible that the casuals could also want a game where they can beat each other up but simply in a more simulated way. Honestly, I feel like a ton of people here thinks way too little of casuals and underestimate the fact that people buy sports game so that they can play something that represents the sport the best it can while being fun.

Now "fun" is a subjective term. We all know that, but if you want to chain together strikes continuously without a care in the world for your stamina, then you might tell yourself, "this ain't fun", but at the end of the day it just means that you were searching for a fighting game period, not a combat sport game. That's all been said a thousand times really.

Hell, I bet you there's more people that left UFC 1 and 2 because of their flaws in mechanics and the cheese that it brought, then there would be because it is "too realistic". That you basically need to play in a manner that makes sense for the sport game you're playing.

I've always, always said that they shouldn't cater to the fighting game crowd but the sports game crowd period. Those casuals you talk about, it's the players fighting game crowd isn't? because I see all my friends, and my brother included that are super casuals with kids and wives, and when they buy sports games that they barely play due to lack of time, never have they said that it was too realistic for their taste, hell they play at the hardest difficulty just so they can grasp the controls and mechanics faster.

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

By why do you think those concessions for casuals are absolutely needed? When let's say, it is not proven that they stick to the franchise because of those meters per say, or the head movement being simplistic. Why isn't possible that the casuals could also want a game where they can beat each other up but simply in a more simulated way. Honestly, I feel like a ton of people here thinks way too little of casuals and underestimate the fact that people buy sports game so that they can play something that represents the sport the best it can while being fun.

Now "fun" is a subjective term. We all know that, but if you want to chain together strikes continuously without a care in the world for your stamina, then you might tell yourself, "this ain't fun", but at the end of the day it just means that you were searching for a fighting game period, not a combat sport game. That's all been said a thousand times really.

Hell, I bet you there's more people that left UFC 1 and 2 because of their flaws in mechanics and the cheese that it brought, then there would be because it is "too realistic". That you basically need to play in a manner that makes sense for the sport game you're playing.

I've always, always said that they shouldn't cater to the fighting game crowd but the sports game crowd period. Those casuals you talk about, it's the players fighting game crowd isn't? because I see all my friends, and my brother included that are super casuals with kids and wives, and when they buy sports games that they barely play due to lack of time, never have they said that it was too realistic for their taste, hell they play at the hardest difficulty just so they can grasp the controls and mechanics faster.

Because the point of making a game is to sell it to the most people possible. I dont think people "think too little of casuals". I actually think they are very diverse. Some would absolutely be happy with a game that was solely focused on realism. Some wouldnt.

Now if you are trying to sell the game to everyone, its not smart to say "You dont like that we removed your opponent's meters?...go play Tekken". "You think head movement is too complicated?....buy Street Fighter."

I dont have much data on what casuals want. Neither does anyone else here. You know who does? Developers. I've talked to the UFC devs about the balance and sim since UFC 2. Ive talked to NBA 2k developers about the the same thing. Both teams are very aware of what casual fans want but they have two different approaches.

The NBA 2k team gives you options. As I've said before, NBA2k at default is an arcade basketball game some sim qualties. What the 2k devs do to appeal to the sim crowd is give you options. ALOT OF OPTIONS. Through sliders and edits, you can make this one of the most hardcore basketball sims of all time. This makes everyone happy. My cousin who is a casual basketball fan can pick up and play the game and have a ball while a hardcore fan can tweak the game to make it as much of a sim as possible.

EA UFC's approach is different. They want to create a game that appeals to everyone without needing a ton of customization. Most EA games have that goal. I personally think meeting that goal is impossible.

I'll give you an example. I have been pushing for sliders in this game since UFC 1 (before I was a GC) and we finally got them in UFC 3 but it wasnt easy. Some members of the dev team were open to them initially but others werent. They wanted to create an AI that worked for everyone. I dont believe thats possible without a player being able to change the difficulty through sliders. I talked to Skynet about it for a long while and he pushed it through. Even with the addition of a lot of sim features in UFC 3, IMO the team is still looking for a middle ground. A sim with some arcade elements.

My point is not everyone wants a hyper realistic sports sim so forcing that on everyone isnt a way to increase your user base. That doesnt mean that everyone cant appreciate realistic features. It just means that not everyone buys this game with the expectation that it will be a 100% true to life simulation of the UFC.

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

And that's the thing, without options, you either go simulation, or arcade, there's no gray area, if you have arcade elements, it affects the whole gameplay in one way or another which is a gaddamn shame.

About the sliders... Sliders are a great move as far as options goes and am glad it's finally in, but why offline only? Why not make it so it's also available in private matches aka Rivalry Mode for exemple. And since we're talking about options in Rivalry, sliders are certainly harder to implement than a modified HUD for us to not see our opponent's. (which was also something that was pushed since EA UFC 1)

I understand the argument over not wanting the option to be in UNranked matches due to potentially dividing the player base too much, but again it's still debatable if it would truely matter in the end. But ranked mode, being THE competitive mode, why not make it so the meters for exemple are gone past a certain division (could be 5 or 6) like other members suggested. That in itselft would be enough concessions for casuals, would you agree?

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

And that's the thing, without options, you either go simulation, or arcade, there's no gray area, if you have arcade elements, it affects the whole gameplay in one way or another which is a gaddamn shame.

About the sliders... Sliders are a great move as far as options goes and am glad it's finally in, but why offline only? Why not make it so it's also available in private matches aka Rivalry Mode for exemple. And since we're talking about options in Rivalry, sliders are certainly harder to implement than a modified HUD for us to not see our opponent's. (which was also something that was pushed since EA UFC 1)

I understand the argument over not wanting the option to be in UNranked matches due to potentially dividing the player base too much, but again it's still debatable if it would truely matter in the end. But ranked mode, being THE competitive mode, why not make it so the meters for exemple are gone past a certain division (could be 5 or 6) like other members suggested. That in itselft would be enough concessions for casuals, would you agree?

Well....talk to all of EA's devs because every EA Sports game goes for the gray area.

Online there really hasnt been the demand for it. None of the other gamechangers really seem to care about it (with the exception of Martial, they are mostly online players) and there doesnt appear to be a ton of interest in the community. Also, most sports games wait until its added offline until they add them online.

People have to understand that when I give you a possible reason why a feature is the way it is in the game....that doesnt mean im advocating for it.

For example, when I tell people that the reason there are no draws is because they havent mocapped animations for when the scores are read for a draw, that isnt me making an excuse for the devs or saying that I agree that draws shouldnt be in the game. Its just me telling you why draws arent in.

Same with meters. I voted that opponent's meters gone should be in all modes. I'm the extreme when it comes to this subject. I also understand that not all buyers would be happy with that change. I also understand that certain segments of the community may not like that change.

So if I acknowledge that, it doesnt mean I'm anti removing the meters. Its just me saying why the devs may be hesitant to do it.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Keeping meters isn't even necessarily a concession for casuals. I'm about as hardcore as it gets and I am fine with certain mechanics considered to be "casual". Because the phrase as some of you people are using it is total bollocks. You have no idea what casuals want. You have a preconceived idea of the casual player and casual gameplay elements.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Well....talk to all of EA's devs because every EA Sports game goes for the gray area.

Online there really hasnt been the demand for it. None of the other gamechangers really seem to care about it (with the exception of Martial, they are mostly online players) and there doesnt appear to be a ton of interest in the community. Also, most sports games wait until its added offline until they add them online.

People have to understand that when I give you a possible reason why a feature is the way it is in the game....that doesnt mean im advocating for it.

For example, when I tell people that the reason there are no draws is because they havent mocapped animations for when the scores are read for a draw, that isnt me making an excuse for the devs or saying that I agree that draws shouldnt be in the game. Its just me telling you why draws arent in.

Same with meters. I voted that opponent's meters gone should be in all modes. I'm the extreme when it comes to this subject. I also understand that not all buyers would be happy with that change. I also understand that certain segments of the community may not like that change.

So if I acknowledge that, it doesnt mean I'm anti removing the meters. Its just me saying why the devs may be hesitant to do it.

Yeah... sorry but i dont agree with this one.

EA gets away with “gray area” in other games because they allow you to edit offline/online both sliders and the players.

If that was possible i’d have a lot less to complain about.

Giving us more options for at least rilvalry would help improve the game for a lot of people

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Yeah... sorry but i dont agree with this one.



EA gets away with “gray area” in other games because they allow you to edit offline/online both sliders and the players.



If that was possible i’d have a lot less to complain about.



Giving us more options for at least rilvalry would help improve the game for a lot of people

Does Madden have online sliders? FIFA? NHL? I swear those are only offline like UFC.

Nhl and Live just started allowing you to edit players. Madden didn’t allow you to edit players for a couple of years recently. During that time, EA was still pushing toward that gray area.

My point was never that I think EAs path is the right path. I don’t. My favorite EA games are the ones that give you the option to customize the game how you like.

My point is that the gray area is what EA always shoots for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[MaccaC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The NBA 2k team gives you options. As I've said before, NBA2k at default is an arcade basketball game some sim qualties. What the 2k devs do to appeal to the sim crowd is give you options. ALOT OF OPTIONS. Through sliders and edits, you can make this one of the most hardcore basketball sims of all time. This makes everyone happy. My cousin who is a casual basketball fan can pick up and play the game and have a ball while a hardcore fan can tweak the game to make it as much of a sim as possible.

EA UFC's approach is different. They want to create a game that appeals to everyone without needing a ton of customization. Most EA games have that goal. I personally think meeting that goal is impossible.

.

I think youre actually a little bit deluded when it comes to how many people want the in depth options you're going on about its the outliers of the outliers people that soley live for that game and play it 8+hours a day, no one is sitting down for a casual game of 2k with sim settings.

When it comes to EA games and the user base just look at Fifa, they make it and respond to glitches in patches but its a bare minimum upgrade on previous versions.

UFC sells a fraction of what Fifa does, take that fraction and find an even smaller subset of people that want a thousand options.

The games development is what it is, its genuinely a super irrelevant topic, nothing gets changed from 50 year long threads like this.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think every fan of a sports game wants realism as it reflects what they watch on tv. I have never seen anything on any game claiming it to be to realistic and for it to be severly dumbed down.