Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

We all get that actual zero is bad. This is what I was explaining when you said it had zero logic, even though you actually agreed with it. Now that has zero logic. That's what I said. No actual sarcasm.

And I don't think anybody disagrees that the RS deadzone for slips might be too wide. No need to repeat that.

What we do disagree in is how big of an effect it could make. GPD, Daisu and I are thinking of 1 frame (if that). You are somehow thinking of 5 to 10. How the hell did you come up with this value. And what evidence do you have of it?

Compare the whole motion of an actual fast jab (10 frames) with the tiny motion you need to make with your finger to tilt the stick all the way. Is it so hard to conceive of your finger motion to be 1/10 of the motion for throwing an actual jab?

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

We all get that actual zero is bad. This is what I was explaining when you said it had zero logic, even though you actually agreed with it. Now that has zero logic. That's what I said. No actual sarcasm.

And I don't think anybody disagrees that the RS deadzone for slips might be too wide. No need to repeat that.

What we do disagree in is how big of an effect it could make. GPD, Daisu and I are thinking of 1 frame (if that). You are somehow thinking of 5 to 10. How the hell did you come up with this value. And what evidence do you have of it?

Compare the whole motion of an actual fast jab (10 frames) with the tiny motion you need to make with your finger to tilt the stick all the way. Is it so hard to conceive of your finger motion to be 1/10 of the motion for throwing an actual jab?

I described above - how i came up to 5-10 frames.
I know that it 100% can NOT be 1 frame - b/c if you will try to make "1 frame Akira's knee" from VF series (where you need to JUST TO RELEASE button with ONE MILIMETER way length down with finger on it (instead of yours 2-3 centimeter way lenth) during follow up 1 frame!!) - you will be 100% sure too about it too.

https://virtuafighter.com/threads/how-to-do-akiras-knee.11685/

I described how i came up - you did NOT, btw.

You misinterpret my words above. repeating again, in my example above STARTUP phase of the jab = 5 frames, NOT "the whole jab move" which is 16frames.

Lets end this talk b/c i dont see any arguments and dscription of "yr 1frame" from you in response to mine SF example. Only that you _can_ and you _think_ , just words.



To be constructive and to be effective i think this is the best way to find the truth:
> I dont understand WHY Devs can not make RS Dead zone on their dev build as tight as they have on LS (this is very easy to make just slide Dead zone numbers to another value), then simply test it and compare the results and post it here on the forum for discussion if they want to make Sway some more responsive and reliable in the game.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I described above - how i came up to 5-10 frames.
I know that it 100% can NOT be 1 frame - b/c if you will try to make "1 frame Akira's knee" from VF series (where you need to JUST TO RELEASE button with ONE MILIMETER way length down with finger on it (instead of yours 2-3 centimeter way lenth) during follow up 1 frame!!) - you will be 100% sure too about it too.
https://virtuafighter.com/threads/ho...as-knee.11685/

Honestly, at this point I don't know what you're describing.

You misinterpret my words above. repeating again, in my example above STARTUP phase of the jab = 5 frames, NOT "the whole jab move" which is 16frames.

Nobody's purposely misinterpreting anything you're saying. It's just that it's kind of hard to follow what you're actually trying to say.

What are you arguing for exactly? And how exactly does your 5-10 frame Street fighter example help your argument? I don't know what you're saying at all.

Lets end this talk b/c i dont see any arguments and dscription of "yr 1frame" from you in response to mine SF example. Only that you _can_ and you _think_ , just words.

You need to work on your explanation. There's some chance we're all on the same side here.

To be constructive and to be effective i think this is the best way to find the truth:

The truth about what? You're all over the place buddy..

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I described above - how i came up to 5-10 frames.
I know that it 100% can NOT be 1 frame - b/c if you will try to make "1 frame Akira's knee" from VF series (where you need to JUST TO RELEASE button with ONE MILIMETER way length down with finger on it (instead of yours 2-3 centimeter way lenth) during follow up 1 frame!!) - you will be 100% sure too about it too.

https://virtuafighter.com/threads/how-to-do-akiras-knee.11685/

I described how i came up - you did NOT, btw.

You misinterpret my words above. repeating again, in my example above STARTUP phase of the jab = 5 frames, NOT "the whole jab move" which is 16frames.

Lets end this talk b/c i dont see any arguments and dscription of "yr 1frame" from you in response to mine SF example. Only that you _can_ and you _think_ , just words.



To be constructive and to be effective i think this is the best way to find the truth:
> I dont understand WHY Devs can not make RS Dead zone on their dev build as tight as they have on LS (this is very easy to make just slide Dead zone numbers to another value), then simply test it and compare the results and post it here on the forum for discussion if they want to make Sway some more responsive and reliable in the game.

My jab example wasn't related to your straight example. Maybe the language barrier is just too strong.

[TeddyRuxpin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

its hard to take the gamechangers seriously when they are so defensive. honestly the game design is a mess

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

My jab example wasn't related to your straight example. Maybe the language barrier is just too strong.

Honestly I don’t think this is the case, that u don’t understand what o am talking about and my arguments.
Otherwise - what exactly I r not understanding? I will try to explain better.
Facts:
1. Dead zone on RS sway is too wide - it needs to tag same as on LS walking
2. You and GPD are wrong when saying that it costs only 1 frame. I still don’t see any arguments and explanation how I came up to this. It looks like GPD asked you and u told him about 1 frame and do he posted this or vice versa.
3. Proof - my gif example and link to Akira’ 1frame knee technique
4. Just tightening Dead zone on RS will increase sway responsiveness and reliability, at least.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Honestly I don’t think this is the case, that u don’t understand what o am talking about and my arguments.
Otherwise - what exactly I r not understanding?

The only thing any of us understand is that you think the dead zone is too large. Everything else is unclear.

2. You and GPD are wrong when saying that it costs only 1 frame. I still don’t see any arguments and explanation how I came up to this.

Again, if this is about flicking your stick from all the way left to all the way right, I guarantee you I can do it in one frame. It's not even hard. The vast majority of players from the game I come from can do this.

If the crux of your argument relies on your inability to do this, I fear you're the only one with this problem.

That said, I still don't understand what part of the game requires us to do the 1 frame motion you're talking about.

3. Proof - my gif example and link to Akira’ 1frame knee technique

All this proves is your inability to communicate your idea effectively.

And your Akira analogy is off. The reason 1 frame moves in other fighting games are hard to do is not just because they're quick, but because it requires a certain timing to it. Just pressing the button or flicking a stick for 1 frame by itself is easy.

4. Just tightening Dead zone on RS will increase sway responsiveness and reliability, at least.

It might. But the problem might be something else entirely.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Flicking the stick from left to right might take you one frame to pull off but the game wont register the input as soon as you start to move the stick so in reality it’ll take longer to register and then the startup will only add to the delay. Then when you try chaining slips it gets even worse since the delay’s will stack and throw off timing/rhythm

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Flicking the stick from left to right might take you one frame to pull off but the game wont register the input as soon as you start to move the stick so in reality it’ll take longer to register and then the startup will only add to the delay. Then when you try chaining slips it gets even worse since the delay’s will stack and throw off timing/rhythm

That actually made me think.

If you go from all the way left to all the way right, even with the dead zone widened to the outer values, that'd mean you'd start your head movement 2 frames after you feel you've done the input (assuming you do it in 1 frame). That would actually feel nearly perfectly responsive and isn't at all what I felt during the beta.

I'm now actually thinking it's not the deadzone that's causing this delayed response and it's not input lag either according to the devs. So that leaves us with two possibilities:

- Fighter attributes too low for our liking
- Unnecessarily many start up frames

Or both I guess..

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

That actually made me think.

If you go from all the way left to all the way right, even with the dead zone widened to the outer values, that'd mean you'd start your head movement 2 frames after you feel you've done the input (assuming you do it in 1 frame). That would actually feel nearly perfectly responsive and isn't at all what I felt during the beta.

I'm now actually thinking it's not the deadzone that's causing this delayed response and it's not input lag either according to the devs. So that leaves us with two possibilities:

- Fighter attributes too low for our liking
- Unnecessarily many start up frames

Or both I guess..

Also remember that the game is 30fps instead of 60 so it’d likely take twice as long for the input IIRC.

I think a frame based system on 30fps is a mistake.

No sarcasm, are there any fighting games that run on 30fps?

[Nugget7211]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Also remember that the game is 30fps instead of 60 so it’d likely take twice as long for the input IIRC.

I think a frame based system on 30fps is a mistake.

No sarcasm, are there any fighting games that run on 30fps?

I'm pretty sure some versions of Street Fighter 4 either are 30 FPS or have an option that makes them 30 FPS in return for like 3D or some ****. You absolutely can use frame data at 30 FPS, it's just better to be at 60

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Also remember that the game is 30fps instead of 60 so it’d likely take twice as long for the input IIRC.

I think a frame based system on 30fps is a mistake.

No sarcasm, are there any fighting games that run on 30fps?

I thought I was crazy but headmovement felt a touch more responsive on the PS4 pro on the 60fps setting than it did on the Base at 30fps.

But even on Pro I had what I thought was input lag or delay on sways often (however was probably what Diasuk mentioned above)

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Also remember that the game is 30fps instead of 60 so it’d likely take twice as long for the input IIRC.

I think a frame based system on 30fps is a mistake.

No sarcasm, are there any fighting games that run on 30fps?

No. All serious fighting games always are (and were) 60fps. 60fps is a fighting game standard b/c it is necessity for frame counting/frame data using.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

No. All serious fighting games always are (and were) 60fps. 60fps is a fighting game standard b/c it is necessity for frame counting/frame data using.

It is not a necessity at all.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I dont understand WHY Devs can not make RS Dead zone on their dev build as tight as they have on LS

The dead zone on an input that chains discrete actions based on angle has a different purpose from the deadzone on an input that has continuous input.

Angles become more and more ambiguous the closer to neutral the stick gets.

Quickly chaining angle inputs introduces a huge possibility for user precision error.

You have to find the balance between responsiveness and accuracy.

The most common error is pressing to one side, then quickly pressing to the other side.

A precise input would pass through the origin at neutral and register on the other side.

But it is very, very common for someone to pass through a region just below the origin, but not fully deflected.

Their intention is to input left/right, but with a small deadzone, it would register left/fwd/right instead.

It is certainly possible that we could reduce the deadzone, but there's no reason to without justification, given that the only benefit would be one thirty hertz frame of response improvement, and decreased reliability on the input angle.