Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The dead zone on an input that chains discrete actions based on angle has a different purpose from the deadzone on an input that has continuous input.

Angles become more and more ambiguous the closer to neutral the stick gets.

Quickly chaining angle inputs introduces a huge possibility for user precision error.

You have to find the balance between responsiveness and accuracy.

The most common error is pressing to one side, then quickly pressing to the other side.

A precise input would pass through the origin at neutral and register on the other side.

But it is very, very common for someone to pass through a region just below the origin, but not fully deflected.

Their intention is to input left/right, but with a small deadzone, it would register left/fwd/right instead.

It is certainly possible that we could reduce the deadzone, but there's no reason to without justification, given that the only benefit would be one thirty hertz frame of response improvement, and decreased reliability on the input angle.

RS and LS both has descrete (lunge, sway) and continuous input (walking, holded sway) = so dont see the difference here.

I understand yr thoughts about unexpected errors with too tight dead zone (L/R sway becomes L/FWD/R sway), but this is very personal and the object for another discussion ( the game allow to BUFFER Lunges - this is AWESOME way to move on the ring for ex. fwd lunge, bwd lunge = as one bait move when buffered, BUT i have not even one error with tight LS; UD3 has not issues w errors in swaying with tight dead zone).

> The best solution will be to give us an option slider for Dead zone for LS and RS - and everyone could make the best for himself. More options, more tuning = better. Why dont solve this by this easiest way?

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It is not a necessity at all.

60fps is a necessity for all ARCADE fighting games.
Arcade = with not analog (constant, not dynamically changing) frame data.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

RS and LS both has descrete (lunge, sway) and continuous input (walking, holded sway) = so dont see the difference here.

I understand yr thoughts about unexpected errors with too tight dead zone (L/R sway becomes L/FWD/R sway), but this is very personal and the object for another discussion ( the game allow to BUFFER Lunges - this is AWESOME way to move on the ring for ex. fwd lunge, bwd lunge = as one bait move when buffered, BUT i have not even one error with tight LS; UD3 has not issues w errors in swaying with tight dead zone).

> The best solution will be to give us an option slider for Dead zone for LS and RS - and everyone could make the best for himself. More options, more tuning = better. Why dont solve this by this easiest way?

Left stick discrete actions are done with a flick, where right stick actions are done on deflection. Very different.

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Left stick discrete actions are done with a flick, where right stick actions are done on deflection. Very different.

I dont think this affects errors on RS tight dead zone and does not on LS tight dead zone, b/c flick on LS can be an error too: LS is tight, i make a tiny flick and release and b/c of tight zone it recognized as up, not bwd for example.

Anyway, does this mean that we will not see Dead zone size option slider or tighter RS dead zone?.. slider could be a helpful thing

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It is not a necessity at all.

Im really curious about this one. It clearly is the standard for fighting games.

Is it just not worth the effort under the hood to change it?

[Benjy7]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Ya'll still crying about 360 head movement? Lol. The Devs know what they're doing. Let them do their job

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

2. You and GPD are wrong when saying that it costs only 1 frame. I still don’t see any arguments and explanation how I came up to this. It looks like GPD asked you and u told him about 1 frame and do he posted this or vice versa.
3. Proof - my gif example and link to Akira’ 1frame knee technique

The argument I used was the comparison between moving your finger slightly (pressing the RS all the way) and throwing a real jab irl. The length of one motion is much much shorter than the other.

You can also test this in practice modes of fight gams that show your inputs frame by frame. I'd be surprised if you can't input back-forward one frame after the other. Also, GPD has testing builds where he can verify this stuff. And he is telling us his findings. And we thought about the value separately. Daisu also got to the same conclusion, separately.

As to your proof... what does that strike has to do with the sticks? Is it not a matter of timing, like Daisu asked? Or is it a "hold and release" input, in which case the speed limitation would be obviously about needing to hold the input for a while, before releasing it?

Flicking the stick from left to right might take you one frame to pull off but the game wont register the input as soon as you start to move the stick so in reality it’ll take longer to register and then the startup will only add to the delay. Then when you try chaining slips it gets even worse since the delay’s will stack and throw off timing/rhythm

On the contrary. If you link slips, you have plenty of time to buffer the input for the next slip, while the current slip is happening. It's important to realize that our inputs are way faster than what the fighters do. And if you'll think about, it's not surprising, because we're only moving our fingers.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Ya'll still crying about 360 head movement? Lol. The Devs know what they're doing. Let them do their job

Part of them "knowing what they're doing" is their willingness to listen to and implement mechanics based on our feedback and ideas.

Would you rather see this forum into a place of worship?

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Part of them "knowing what they're doing" is their willingness to listen to and implement mechanics based on our feedback and ideas.

Would you rather see this forum into a place of worship?

A tiny part, maybe. Pretty sure they got pros, trainers, analysts and amateurs out there helping them already, we're a forum where we can't even agree entirely on some of those ideas and mechanics you talk about.

Hell, a simple thing as a hud customization so we can't see our opponent's health and stamina for exemple, and there's 15% of a survey of a hundred on the forum that disagrees with those that wants it gone. The transition based submission system is pretty much the thing we agreed the most on and it's still not implemented, and might never be.

Anyways, seeing the reactions from the last videos on the forum is a eye opener as to how people jump to such huge conclusions. It's a repeat of what happened with the videos that were released just before the beta.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

60fps is a necessity for all ARCADE fighting games.
Arcade = with not analog (constant, not dynamically changing) frame data.

You can't just say that without justification though.

I can think of no reason why you couldn't implement an arcade fighting game at 15hz let alone 30hz.

All you're losing is resolution, but the fundamentals remain unchanged.

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The argument I used was the comparison between moving your finger slightly (pressing the RS all the way) and throwing a real jab irl. The length of one motion is much much shorter than the other.

You can also test this in practice modes of fight gams that show your inputs frame by frame. I'd be surprised if you can't input back-forward one frame after the other. Also, GPD has testing builds where he can verify this stuff. And he is telling us his findings. And we thought about the value separately. Daisu also got to the same conclusion, separately.

As to your proof... what does that strike has to do with the sticks? Is it not a matter of timing, like Daisu asked? Or is it a "hold and release" input, in which case the speed limitation would be obviously about needing to hold the input for a while, before releasing it?


On the contrary. If you link slips, you have plenty of time to buffer the input for the next slip, while the current slip is happening. It's important to realize that our inputs are way faster than what the fighters do. And if you'll think about, it's not surprising, because we're only moving our fingers.

Tell me the game which shows frame data log for analog sticks?

My example (1 frame Akira knee): please open the link and read... text is in english. Really. It seems you even dont read my explanations.
In short: no timing, just as quick as possible movement: on gamepad click square + triangle, then during 1 frame release triangle while keeping holded square button. The best way to do it - by sliding and keeping the finger on square. 1 frame... very difficult to do = lightning move.
No way to do it for RS edge-to edge, especially when you are doing the series of sways in match.

[SUGATA]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You can't just say that without justification though.

I can think of no reason why you couldn't implement an arcade fighting game at 15hz let alone 30hz.

All you're losing is resolution, but the fundamentals remain unchanged.

I dont know even one serious arcade fighting game with less than 60fps.
60fps is for GAMEPLAY (this is a foundation/standard for using frame data by players), not just visual performance. 60fps > (more important) than Graphics and resolutions. Always. For serious fightings. For cybersport.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

A tiny part, maybe. Pretty sure they got pros, trainers, analysts and amateurs out there helping them already, we're a forum where we can't even agree entirely on some of those ideas and mechanics you talk about.

Hell, a simple thing as a hud customization so we can't see our opponent's health and stamina for exemple, and there's 15% of a survey of a hundred on the forum that disagrees with those that wants it gone. The transition based submission system is pretty much the thing we agreed the most on and it's still not implemented, and might never be.

Anyways, seeing the reactions from the last videos on the forum is a eye opener as to how people jump to such huge conclusions. It's a repeat of what happened with the videos that were released just before the beta.

I think the reason you're frustrated is because you fundamentally misunderstand our role. We're not part of the decision making process. It's not a democracy.

If someone from the dev team reads and likes an idea, they'll propose it to whoever's in charge. That person then weighs the benefits and potential risks of implementing such an idea while considering the financial costs and time it would take to get it done. Then they'll either sign off on it, hold on to it for later games/patches or reject it outright.

All we can do is float well thought out concepts and mechanics we feel would improve the game. Whether or not they'll do anything with it is entirely up to whoever's in charge.

That said, this team has shown they do listen though so it's not futile by any stretch. It's just that you shouldn't expect immediate change just because this forum seems to lean into the direction of a certain idea. There's more factors that come into play than just this forum.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think the reason you're frustrated is because you fundamentally misunderstand our role. We're not part of the decision making process. It's not a democracy.

If someone from the dev team reads and likes an idea, they'll propose it to whoever's in charge. That person then weighs the benefits and potential risks of implementing such an idea while considering the financial costs and time it would take to get it done. Then they'll either sign off on it, hold on to it for later games/patches or reject it outright.

All we can do is float well thought out concepts and mechanics we feel would improve the game. Whether or not they'll do anything with it is entirely up to whoever's in charge.

That said, this team has shown they do listen though so it's not futile by any stretch. It's just that you shouldn't expect immediate change just because this forum seems to lean into the direction of a certain idea. There's more factors that come into play than just this forum.

This is 100% spot on.

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think the reason you're frustrated is because you fundamentally misunderstand our role. We're not part of the decision making process. It's not a democracy.

If someone from the dev team reads and likes an idea, they'll propose it to whoever's in charge. That person then weighs the benefits and potential risks of implementing such an idea while considering the financial costs and time it would take to get it done. Then they'll either sign off on it, hold on to it for later games/patches or reject it outright.

All we can do is float well thought out concepts and mechanics we feel would improve the game. Whether or not they'll do anything with it is entirely up to whoever's in charge.

That said, this team has shown they do listen though so it's not futile by any stretch. It's just that you shouldn't expect immediate change just because this forum seems to lean into the direction of a certain idea. There's more factors that come into play than just this forum.

I totally understand that actually and I agree.

Part of them "knowing what they're doing" is their willingness to listen to and implement mechanics based on our feedback and ideas.

I guess I just didnt quite understand what you meant by that, I thought you were going about that as if they knew what they were doing mostly because they would listen to us and implement mechanics we asked. Which obviously isn't the case.

What I was trying to pass was that even if we do give feedback and ask for mechanics, we as a community, have opinions that differs on a lot of subjects when we look at it in a general view, so for the devs seeing this and basing their decisions or what they pass down to the big man, is much much harder to do. So basically it does have a part, but a tiny one in the end.