Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

Doesnt your solution basically falls down to always choosing top players in this case to stop the counterpicks? Isn't the point of the double confirmation in the first place that you guys are trying to make is so you can utilize the entire roster without worries?

It is. You can try to pick whoever you want as an invitation for the opponent to pick someone around the same level. If they wish to pick a top guy, you can then just pick your favorite fighter to match him. There is no risk of a big handicap in attempting to pick a lower level guy. And there is no considerable counterpicking, either.

[Morgan Monkman]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

Counter picking is hardly a issue.

Seriously. I have been playing fighting games my entire life and counter picking can be annoying but hardly game breaking.

Just pick a fighter you lile and kick his *** anyways.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

Counter picking is hardly a issue.

Seriously. I have been playing fighting games my entire life and counter picking can be annoying but hardly game breaking.

Just pick a fighter you lile and kick his *** anyways.

Yeah, basically this. Counter picking is annoying for 15-20 seconds it's happening, then you immediately forget it ever happened, because it very, very rarely matters in well balanced games.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

I'm not going to stop. It's not about winning or having information. It's about giving people the freedom to comfortably utilize the entire roster.

My filter idea solves that issue while still having blind picks.

I think the issue of counterpicks is being way overblown here.

No, it's not. Just because the roster is more balanced doesn't mean you don't have horrible matchups.

That would only happen if people were unable to learn that it doesn't work. Whenever this would even appear to begin, a player cans imply pick his best fighter. There is no significant rock-paper-scissors at a high tier in this game. This is what people seem to forget.

Or if you run into an actual try-hard that absolutely refuses to not have the advantage of counter picking your fighter and is willing to play this cat and mouse for hours on end until you either leave or fight uphill.

But even without such an extreme, no matter how you try to spin it, someone will get to pick last and there in lies the problem Altair. Being able to pick last is objectively an advantage and a zero-sum game.




Double confirmation
Pro's
- In case you and your opponent agree, lower level fighters can be used without having to fight a Jon Jones, etc.

Cons
- Inherently unfair as both players cannot base their pick on their opponent. It either leads to an endless shuffle of character switches or to one player getting "willingly" counter picked.

Optional filter & blind picks
Pro's
- Opens up the entire roster because players can opt to only get matched with fighters of a similar tier.
- Allows people to filter out mirror matches.
- No counter picking.

Cons
- Hypothetical longer searches before finding a match if filter is on. Though the difference is most likely negligible if the player base is large enough.


The only argument I've seen for double confirmation is simply that it opens up the entire cast. Filters do this better and don't create a new problem in the process. So what argument is left at this point?

Would you really claim you lost due to a stylistic match up at a top tier of this game?

If you don't think that's a possibility you don't know competitive fighting games. In any fighting game with a big enough and diverse roster where fighters that have their own strengths and weaknesses, you'll have good, bad and even matchups. That's the nature of diversity.

It's even more obvious with lower level fighters who aren't as well rounded.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

Or if you run into an actual try-hard that absolutely refuses to not have the advantage of counter picking your fighter and is willing to play this cat and mouse for hours on end until you either leave or fight uphill.

That would only happen if you're such a try-hard yourself. And what would be such an uphill fight? What imense rock-paper-scissor is there among the top fighters of a division?

[Trillz]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

Blind picks with optional filter is the best way method imo, in terms of quickness getting into a game.

Look at competitive games like league of legends that allows you to ban characters. I would like to see a option before searching to ban 1 fighter in each weight class before searching for a ranked match.

This cuts out the most popular fighter/most OP fighter, and in every weight class the rest of the competition becomes even. For mirror matches there could be a no mirror match option, However im not sure how it would work doing it blind.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

That would only happen if you're such a try-hard yourself.

You're fooling yourself if you think this isn't something you'll run into. I've been on the receiving end of way way worse. Never underestimate the lengths scumbags are willing to go for a W..

And what would be such an uphill fight? What imense rock-paper-scissor is there among the top fighters of a division?

1) I can't give specifics because the game isn't out yet. But it's not hard to imagine.
2) I don't just care about the top fighters of a division. The effects of counter picking become even more apparent the lower you go because those fighters aren't as well rounded.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

You're fooling yourself if you think this isn't something you'll run into. I've been on the receiving end of way way worse. Never underestimate the lengths scumbags are willing to go for a W..
- In a game witha proper blindpick scheme? And I assume you played the beta. The tops of the divisions won't be much different than the sort of balance of the beta stats.


1) I can't give specifics because the game isn't out yet. But it's not hard to imagine.
- But it's fair enough... I can ask you once the game is out.

2) I don't just care about the top fighters of a division. The effects of counter picking become even more apparent the lower you go because those fighters aren't as well rounded.
- You care more about the stylistic differences than matching tiers? The math just isn't there.

.........................

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

- In a game with a proper blindpick scheme?

In any competitive game with internal and external rules that can be abused/exploited, people will abuse/exploit those rules to give themselves an edge.

- But it's fair enough... I can ask you once the game is out.

All this really requires is a thought experiment.

- You care more about the stylistic differences than matching tiers? The math just isn't there.

When did I even come remotely close to suggesting this?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

When did I even come remotely close to suggesting this?

DC solves the tier handicap, which is far more severe than a style handicap (if any). I'm refering to a comparison between DC and the usual blind pick that doesn't have the hard filter per tier.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

DC solves the tier handicap, which is far more severe than a style handicap (if any). I'm refering to a comparison between DC and the usual blind pick that doesn't have the hard filter per tier.

The filter solves the tier handicap, the counter-pick shuffle and the mirror matches with not real downsides so I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this..

But I agree a significant stats deficit is worse than a style mismatch.

[Coolade]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

What happens when you're out of points? You can't play rank anymore? Nah, anything that puts a fight limit as to how many you can have in a day or whatever is bound to fail.

You make fighters on the lower level that cost 0 points so you always have a fighter to pick no matter what. That way if you pick jon jones 3 straight times, your next couple of fights will be harder as you'll have limited options. It will make the entire roster get used. I like my idea but I can tell no one else does. I think it would work and make you use some strategy when it comes to budgeting as you would have your go to team selection order for each division.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

The filter solves the tier handicap, the counter-pick shuffle and the mirror matches with not real downsides so I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this..

But I agree a significant stats deficit is worse than a style mismatch.

The downsides of the filter would be:

1- Larger waiting times. It's hard to know by how much.

2- Being unable to handicap yourself (not big issue, but still an issue, specially in the first weeks).

3- Allowing players to duck certaing players, which would likely screw with the ELO system. If most top players would pick fighters at a high level, some quasi-top players could attempt to duck them by always picking fighters at a lower level. Such guys would likely achieve longer winning streaks.
______________

DC's downside would be:

* Stylistic handicap. It's not so hard to know how tiny it would be.

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

Double confirmation makes your opponent feel cheap for picking Jon Jones against Nogueira. That discourages a lot of it.


Another thing that could be included is win bonus/penalty based on fighter tier. So in the fighter selection screen it'll say your opponent is picking a tier 3 fighter - based on your current selection your win bonus will be 0 and your loss penalty will be 5 points since you're picking a tier 1 fighter.

That would literally solve everything. It would also encourage top players to try and place players in a penalty by way of picking very low rated fighters and handicap themselves.

This is the most effective solution. Make it a 35 second selection timer and if they don't ready up it'll simply random select a fighter for them. If they back out it's a loss for them but no win is given (to prevent boosting).

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Is ranked still gonna be blind pick?

The downsides of the filter would be:

1- Larger waiting times. It's hard to know by how much.

No, you're fearmongering.

Plenty of other games use this type of filter and have comparable if not faster matchmaking than the UFC games.

If the player base is large enough (which it seems to be), there should be no significant difference in the time it takes you to find a fight with the filter turned on, let alone off.

2- Being unable to handicap yourself (not big issue, but still an issue, specially in the first weeks).

Pick a low ranked fighter. Turn off the filter. You'll be in a pool with players utilizing top tier fighters. How's that not handicapping yourself?

3- Allowing players to duck certaing players, which would likely screw with the ELO system.

You can account for that by tweaking the reward system and significantly reduce if not cap the rewards of fighting with the filter on.

If most top players would pick fighters at a high level, some quasi-top players could attempt to duck them by always picking fighters at a lower level. Such guys would likely achieve longer winning streaks.

Let them. They'd be a bunch of Ben Askrens.

Again, if the reward algorithm is tweaked to account for filter use, doing so won't lead to people being highly ranked highly when they shouldn't be.


Any other concerns?

Double confirmation makes your opponent feel cheap for picking Jon Jones against Nogueira. That discourages a lot of it.

HAHA! No. Just no..

Another thing that could be included is win bonus/penalty based on fighter tier. So in the fighter selection screen it'll say your opponent is picking a tier 3 fighter - based on your current selection your win bonus will be 0 and your loss penalty will be 5 points since you're picking a tier 1 fighter.

That would literally solve everything. It would also encourage top players to try and place players in a penalty by way of picking very low rated fighters and handicap themselves.

Oh God please no. If my opponent wants to handicap themselves, let them. That shouldn't affect me in any way. You know how easy that is to abuse..?