EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Not always. Example: Gokhan Saki.

We gave him really good striking stats simply because he is an elite level kickboxer even though he hasnt proven it against top competition in the UFC.

One way to look at it is the less UFC fights we have to go on, the more we have to rely on past accomplishments. We try to find a balance with that. If you have 5-6 UFC fights where you have fought for a decent amount of time, I dont have to rely as much on past accomplishments because I have plenty of data to go off on.

With Askren, I have about 13 minutes of UFC data which isnt alot.

Paulo Costa is an example. When we created his stats, we had 3 fights to go off of. I had to look at his pre UFC fights to help with giving him proper striking stats. Now many here thought I was wrong for giving him great power stats. I couldve been wrong if his follow up performances didnt show the stats were justified. Its an educated guess in situations like that.

What are we debating here though?

I opened up the Askren topic and my argument is that no matter how good he is when the fight hits the mat, everything about him that precedes that moment, if it ever comes, is absolutely ****. Including the part where goes in in an attempt to take the opponent down. This would make using Askren a nightmare, unless he is magically placed on top of the other guy. So I want him to be properly rated and unfortunately it's all ****, apart from wrestling.

However, I'm left with the impression that you guys are debating exactly how good he is in wrestling specifically, rather than his overall game. I think that's a good discussion to be had as well, but I wanted to know what we are talking about.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

What are we debating here though?

I opened up the Askren topic and my argument is that no matter how good he is when the fight hits the mat, everything about him that precedes that moment, if it ever comes, is absolutely ****. Including the part where goes in in an attempt to take the opponent down. This would make using Askren a nightmare, unless he is magically placed on top of the other guy. So I want him to be properly rated and unfortunately it's all ****, apart from wrestling.

However, I'm left with the impression that you guys are debating exactly how good he is in wrestling specifically, rather than his overall game. I think that's a good discussion to be had as well, but I wanted to know what we are talking about.

His overall game was always going to be rated poorly. He has never shown the ability to strike. He lacks power, speed, footwork...pretty much anything related to striking. His grappling was always going to be on the high end.

Haz_ stated that his wrestling hasnt been good in the UFC and I somewhat disagree with that because of the limited amount of time that we have seen him. He didnt look bad when it came to his ability to score a takedown or his top control. He just was beat by perhaps the greatest MMA grappler ever.

So I asked should we consider his olympic pedigree and his domination of lower level opponents when judging him given that we really have only seen about 15 minutes of him against UFC comp? Toni and Haz said that we havent before and I gave them examples of situations where we did.

The choice is simple: We can base his stats entirely on the last 3 fights and Askren will likely be absolute trash or we can try to find a middle ground that doesnt ignore Askren's previous fights but also recognizes that he has been average against UFC comp.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

His overall game was always going to be rated poorly. He has never shown the ability to strike. He lacks power, speed, footwork...pretty much anything related to striking. His grappling was always going to be on the high end.

Haz_ stated that his wrestling hasnt been good in the UFC and I somewhat disagree with that because of the limited amount of time that we have seen him. He didnt look bad when it came to his ability to score a takedown or his top control. He just was beat by perhaps the greatest MMA grappler ever.

So I asked should we consider his olympic pedigree and his domination of lower level opponents when judging him given that we really have only seen about 15 minutes of him against UFC comp?

I think his entire career should be considered, but it's obviously the UFC career that's the litmus test, not the one prior.

He did get wrecked by Lawler while grappling, and Robbie isn't even some explosive wrestler (I know he has a wrestling background). His second fight saw him nearly die due to his poor entry, which is also part of his wrestling.

His third fight I felt was pretty even, he went toe to toe with Maia, it was a stalemate until the finish. So based on that fight I think he should be rated not too far from Maia in terms of on the mat stats, I think that's fair, especially when you pair it with his pre-UFC career. He did hang with him after all. I do want to remind you that Maia was probably the guy who would least fear getting taken down, BJJ guys want the fight on the ground, especially ones on his level.

But yeah, his other glaring weaknesses should really hurt his grappling too, one of them being his striking stamina. With a single stamina bar and dynamic stat drops after being hurt, he should struggle to work his skills. That's something that applies to far better MMA grapplers, by the way. For example, I believe Jacare should have poor grappling stamina — he has all the skills but he doesn't have the energy to utilise them against the best anymore. So while he does have the mat stats on paper, being low on stamina should prevent him from getting the results after a certain point in the fight. Another weakness is the entries.

But I do think in terms of pure mat stats he should be pretty high... it's how he's gonna get there that is the problem.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

I think his entire career should be considered, but it's obviously the UFC career that's the litmus test, not the one prior.

He did get wrecked by Lawler while grappling, and Robbie isn't even some explosive wrestler (I know he has a wrestling background). His second fight saw him nearly die due to his poor entry, which is also part of his wrestling.

His third fight I felt was pretty even, he went toe to toe with Maia, it was a stalemate until the finish. So based on that fight I think he should be rated not too far from Maia in terms of on the mat stats, I think that's fair, especially when you pair it with his pre-UFC career. He did hang with him after all. I do want to remind you that Maia was probably the guy who would least fear getting taken down, BJJ guys want the fight on the ground, especially ones on his level.

But yeah, his other glaring weaknesses should really hurt his grappling too, one of them being his striking stamina. With a single stamina bar and dynamic stat drops after being hurt, he should struggle to work his skills. That's something that applies to far better MMA grapplers, by the way. For example, I believe Jacare should have poor grappling stamina — he has all the skills but he doesn't have the energy to utilise them against the best anymore. So while he does have the mat stats on paper, being low on stamina should prevent him from getting the results after a certain point in the fight. Another weakness is the entries.

But I do think in terms of pure mat stats he should be pretty high... it's how he's gonna get there that is the problem.

What if there is only one stamina category? (this isnt a clue about whats coming in UFC 4...just something that I've seen the devs suggest since UFC 3 was released)

Askren has never shown an issue with grappling stamina and I kinda disagree with you that his striking stamina is a problem. He looks tired not because he is tired but more because he lacks technique and looks sloppy.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

What if there is only one stamina category? (this isnt a clue about whats coming in UFC 4...just something that I've seen the devs suggest since UFC 3 was released)

Askren has never shown an issue with grappling stamina and I kinda disagree with you that his striking stamina is a problem. He looks tired not because he is tired but more because he lacks technique and looks sloppy.

Well I've only seen the Maia fight once but I thought I saw a marked difference between how Askren looked in R1, then in R2, then in R3. I know he's sloppy, he was sloppy in the first too, but he wasn't tired. Maia was also visibly tired. They tired in a similar progression, actually.

As for if there's only one stamina rating...I don't know. Maybe an 89. Askren may not have shown grappling stamina issues, but that's when he was fighting bums. Now he had a fight against a proper grappler to really make him work. I don't want to debate Askren's grappling stamina though, I felt that he got tired from striking in the first place.


Edit: my point was to illustrate how fatigue plays a role in grappling, not that Askren has poor grappling stamina, I guess it came across that way.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Well I've only seen the Maia fight once but I thought I saw a marked difference between how Askren looked in R1, then in R2, then in R3. I know he's sloppy, he was sloppy in the first too, but he wasn't tired. Maia was also visibly tired. They tired in a similar progression, actually.

As for if there's only one stamina rating...I don't know. Maybe an 89. Askren may not have shown grappling stamina issues, but that's when he was fighting bums. Now he had a fight against a proper grappler to really make him work. I don't want to debate Askren's grappling stamina though, I felt that he got tired from striking in the first place.


Edit: my point was to illustrate how fatigue plays a role in grappling, not that Askren has poor grappling stamina, I guess it came across that way.

Ok I hate that you are making me do this because I am a known Ben Askren ***** but he wasnt just fighting bums.

He has wins over Shinya Aoki (who is really a LW but a elite level grappler), Andrei Koreshkov, Douglas Lima (arguably these guys were a bit green but they would be Top 5-15 in the UFC right now) plus two UFCers in Good and Heiron.

An 89 seems kind a low to me even if there was some kind of fatigue in Rnd 3 against Maia.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Ok I hate that you are making me do this because I am a known Ben Askren ***** but he wasnt just fighting bums.

He has wins over Shinya Aoki (who is really a LW but a elite level grappler), Andrei Koreshkov, Douglas Lima (arguably these guys were a bit green but they would be Top 5-15 in the UFC right now) plus two UFCers in Good and Heiron.

An 89 seems kind a low to me even if there was some kind of fatigue in Rnd 3 against Maia.

Yeah, maybe I should have said mostly bums. At least not UFC level competition, if they're not "bums". That's the important part. Anyway, one of his fights that I saw was Lima but, yeah, I heard he was green at the time so I couldn't draw proper conclusions even from that.

The best approach is different rates of losing stamina on the feet and while grappling, but one stamina bar that encompasses both. So if you work a guy in either area of MMA, they'll suffer for it in the other as well.

[Haz____]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

See I hate when people mischaracterize my arguments. The consistent argument I've had with you about Burns has had nothing to do with his prior accomplishments. It has always been about his striking...in particular his power.

You wanted us to significantly increase his power because he KOd Dan Moret and Jason Saggo. I disagreed because he Kod two guys who were low level UFC fighters.

Now Burns "credentials" are what got him a rating that is 5th in the division when it comes to Sub O. An argument could be made that it should be higher and had we continued to make changes through 2019, its possible that he would be.

I don't understand what's up the the quotes around "credentials". Burns is objectively one of the most decorated Jiu Jitsu fighters in the UFC right now. Up there with Shoeface, Kron, Ryan Hall, & Maia as far as pure BJJ creds go. Not only past credentials, but he is still actively competing in pure grappling events and winning consistently. He competed 8 times in pure grappling matches in 2018 and won 7 of them...

It's also not all about KOs. Burns has been visibly hurting people with his striking for a while now, stunning and knocking guys down in every fight. He's been training under 1 of the best kickboxing trainers in MMA for quite some time, and is an incredibly explosive athlete that can take advantage of that training, unlike most other slow, plodding, 'slow twitch' BJJ fighters like Shoeface, Maia, and Kron, for example.

Burns doesn't need "significantly better striking" stats, he is just generally underrated in this game. Now, I won't go as far as to say he has been 'done dirty'; He does have some decent move levels on his Overhand, BJJ transitions, and what not. He's got both takedown sub reversals. He hasn't been completely ignored, but I can confidently say he is 1 fighter that has definitely been under rated stat wise. For whatever reason.

He is 17-3 in MMA, and his losses came against:
-A dude who grossly missed weight.
-Rashid Magomedov, basically the Russian Conor Mcgregor, who I'm pretty sure was undefeated at the time, and is an INSANE kickboxer. (Super bummed this guy left the UFC)
-A surging Dan Hooker, when Burns suffered a botched camp, and terrible weight cut, and came into the fight dramatically compromised. (Also the last fight he lost. Burns is on a 4 fight streak currently)

The man has proven himself to be a very high level martial artist in all areas. While in the game he literally still can't even throw a lead high kick... Now that he has wins on his record over guys like Alex Oliveira, Gunnar Nelson, and Aubin-Mercier, he's showing his skills against fighters that aren't just "low level UFC fighters". Hopefully UFC 4 can finally show Gil some love.








As far as Askren, I really think you're showing somewhat of a bias here for Ben. He really hasn't shown anything in the UFC suggesting he is any good at all. Just watching his fights and being honest... Even the fight he won, he looked awful in. You also have to consider with Askren that hes 35, and took a lot of time off. I think we can all agree it's been proven with out a shadow of a doubt he's far from his prime at this point.


Check out Jimmie Smith's breakdown of the Askren - Maia match, and his take on Askren.
--Timestamped to the Askren - Maia discussion so you don't have to sit through 8 minutes of other talk. Just click play to go right to it.--
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/afb-HzqqPWU?start=517" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
@13:09
"I didn't see a fighter in this last fight, in Ben Askren, who can compete with the elite in the UFC. I just didn't see that" - Jimmy Smith

I watch a lot of MMA content and really nobody has much of anything good to say about Akren, other than that he's a good loser, and is humble in defeat. I mean, just being honest Askren doesn't really look like he stacks up well against many people in the UFC's WW division at allllll.... Style make fights, and he has almost all bad style match ups at this point with where his skill set seems to be at these days.

I mean, lets grab the official WW rankings of the UFC website and see what exactly we are working with here..

WELTERWEIGHT
CHAMPION KAMARU USMAN
1 Tyron Woodley
2 Colby Covington
3 Jorge Masvidal
4 Leon Edwards
5 Rafael Dos Anjos
6 Nate Diaz
7 Santiago Ponzinibbio
8 Stephen Thompson
9 Darren Till
10 Demian Maia
11 Ben Askren
12 Anthony Pettis
13 Robbie Lawler
14 Vicente Luque
15 Gilbert Burns


...Yikes. Really the only winnable fights there are maybe Luque, and Pettis? Maybe RDA, but RDA has great grappling and might just light him up on the feet, buuut he is small enough that Askren might be able to do his thing. Maybe Ponz if he can secure the takedown, but man, Ponz is faaast and powerful. I don't think it's hard to imagine a world where Ponz just puts his lights out.
I mean really none of those look great for him.


I mean all this talk, I'd actually like to see Burns vs Askren tbh. I think Burns would either KO him or Sub him to be completely honest. No way Ben can hang on the feet, and Gil has sick grappling so I dunno. That would be a fun fight though.






**edit**
I just read that Maia landed 69 significant strikes against Askren, which is the most he's ever landed in a fight in his career. I mean....

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

- I dont know how I can have a "bias for Ben" when in a post above I said I was a Ben h*ter. LOL. I spent my hard earned cash just to watch Masvidal beat the **** out of him in Vegas. I found him to be a bit more tolerable since he lost but I really dont like dude.

- It kind of goes back to what Kingslayer was asking. I've never called and never considered Ben an elite fighter. He is a great grappler. He lands takedowns and his top control usually works well against most fighters. Now if you think that 15 minutes (In which he had a perfect knee landed against him, controlled Lawler against the cage and finished him and he hung with perhaps the greatest MMA grappler ever) negates what he's done his entire career....more power to you.

- I used quotation marks for credentials because I was quoting your use of the world "credentials" in a previous post. Thats one of the reasons why people use quotation marks. In fact, its the main reason people use them.

- "The Russian Conor McGregor" is 3-3-1 in the PFL. Doesnt really help your case that Burns lost to top level UFC fighters prior to when we stopped updating.

- I get it. You like Burns. You think he's been underrated. What sucks is he has gone on a run since we stopped updating the game. He would have seen a few bumps since then based on his last few performances.

- Lets go off of the top 15 you listed. Who is better at takedowns and top control there: Usman, Colby, Maia (top control not takedowns)and maybe Burns. GSP too assuming he's still in the game. So he's Top 5 in each of those subjects. Which is what I said earlier. So what is exactly the point of this discussion?

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

@Haz, turns out the debate is pure wrestling, not overall game and stand-up. Just wrestling. And in pure wrestling he still should be better than most. His entire career and credentials have to be considered, not just the three fights he's been in in the UFC. The rest of his stats have to be ****, obviously.

https://youtu.be/A17OwO5ho4Y.

Here is what I think is a great breakdown of the fight.

[Good Grappler]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Even if Askren was doing well in the UFC, he would still be hard to represent in-game because his standup and athleticism would still suck.

Here’s how I think Ben should feel in EA UFC 4. He should feel like a slow, clumsy, unathletic fighter in striking range. And even his takedown attempts should be a bit clumsy looking - I don’t think his takedown offense should be above 93. But he should not be gassing out for failing takedown attempts.

However, in the clinch, and from top position, he should be on par with, if not superior to, any fighter in the WW division, barring maybe Maia, and even then it should be neck and neck. Ben should have a tremendous advantage in the clinch over pretty much anyone at WW - I mean he was dominating the clinch against Maia. A couple of his takedowns from the clinch were just stupid impressive. And he was doing very well on the ground as well, Maia really never got anything going. A single mistake led to Ben’s demise... it’s not like he was getting outgrappled before that point. And Ben’s stats should reflect that fact.

Besides, isn’t Maia like a 99 in every stat on the ground right now? And that’s not even unfair... Maia IS untouchable on the mat. Even Usman and Colby didn’t touch him on the mat. Ben actively initiated and engaged the grappling with Maia, and was winning until he got caught slippin. Shouldn’t that mean Ben gets, what, a 98 for the ground?

I have a Ben Askren CAF, and I update his stats after every fight. I think he’s fairly balanced and feels fair when playing against roster fighters. Here are his current stats:


Striking:

OVR 70

Speed: 80
Power: 78
Accuracy: 84
Blocking: 81
Head Movement: 60
Footwork: 78
Stance switch: 30

Grappling:

OVR 94

Clinch throws..............98
Clinch grapple.............99
Takedown...................93
Takedown defense.......94
Top game...................98
Bottom game..............94
Submission offense......89
Submission defense.....94


Stamina

OVR 91

Strike Stamina.........84
Grapple Stamina......96
Endurance...............94


Health

OVR 90

Chin 94
Body 92
Legs ...........80
Toughness....93
Heart...........95

Perks:
Crushing presence (level 4)
Work horse (level 4)
Grinder (level4)
Judoka (level 3)

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Okay, here's a question: should Romero have 96 Top Game? We all know about his grappling credentials of course, but can he keep them down when he does take them down? I know this is down to stamina also, that's why I'm asking. Moreover, does his actual ability to keep guys down warrant a 96 Top Game rating? Would something like a 93 + a grapple stamina of 88 (1 down from 89) be a more accurate rating?

Oh, and while I'm at it:

Chin 91 to 94-95. He did get rocked multiple times against Whittaker and Costa. But, he also ate a roundhouse to the head from Costa like a tic tac. Plus a ton of other big shots in his recent fights. My lack of full knowledge about ratings may cause those suggestions to not be the best possible, so a 92-93 (?) + whatever governs how many of those you can take (that's quite a lot for Romero) may be good enough.

Body 93 to 98. Whittaker and Rockhold have said that they get hurt when they land on him.

Legs 90 to 95-96 (?). I don't remember him having serious leg health issues, i.e. he's tough as nails here, as he is everywhere else. Whittaker went for oblique kicks hard in their second fight but I can't say they hurt Yoel. I bet they were nasty as **** but...he absorbed them all.

What do you think?

[Haz____]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Okay, here's a question: should Romero have 96 Top Game? We all know about his grappling credentials of course, but can he keep them down when he does take them down? I know this is down to stamina also, that's why I'm asking. Moreover, does his actual ability to keep guys down warrant a 96 Top Game rating? Would something like a 93 + a grapple stamina of 88 (1 down from 89) be a more accurate rating?

Oh, and while I'm at it:

Chin 91 to 94-95. He did get rocked multiple times against Whittaker and Costa. But, he also ate a roundhouse to the head from Costa like a tic tac. Plus a ton of other big shots in his recent fights. My lack of full knowledge about ratings may cause those suggestions to not be the best possible, so a 92-93 (?) + whatever governs how many of those you can take (that's quite a lot for Romero) may be good enough.

Body 93 to 98. Whittaker and Rockhold have said that they get hurt when they land on him.

Legs 90 to 95-96 (?). I don't remember him having serious leg health issues, i.e. he's tough as nails here, as he is everywhere else. Whittaker went for oblique kicks hard in their second fight but I can't say they hurt Yoel. I bet they were nasty as **** but...he absorbed them all.

What do you think?

Agree. He needs maxed blocking too. My man aint playin with those 52 blocks.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Agree. He needs maxed blocking too. My man aint playin with those 52 blocks.

Totally forgot about the block.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: EA UFC Stat Change Request Discussion Thread

Okay, here's a question: should Romero have 96 Top Game? We all know about his grappling credentials of course, but can he keep them down when he does take them down? I know this is down to stamina also, that's why I'm asking. Moreover, does his actual ability to keep guys down warrant a 96 Top Game rating? Would something like a 93 + a grapple stamina of 88 (1 down from 89) be a more accurate rating?

Oh, and while I'm at it:

Chin 91 to 94-95. He did get rocked multiple times against Whittaker and Costa. But, he also ate a roundhouse to the head from Costa like a tic tac. Plus a ton of other big shots in his recent fights. My lack of full knowledge about ratings may cause those suggestions to not be the best possible, so a 92-93 (?) + whatever governs how many of those you can take (that's quite a lot for Romero) may be good enough.

Body 93 to 98. Whittaker and Rockhold have said that they get hurt when they land on him.

Legs 90 to 95-96 (?). I don't remember him having serious leg health issues, i.e. he's tough as nails here, as he is everywhere else. Whittaker went for oblique kicks hard in their second fight but I can't say they hurt Yoel. I bet they were nasty as **** but...he absorbed them all.

What do you think?

When Romero WANTS to control on top, he does devastating damage. Look what he did to Machida, and how he rallied against Brunson after the knee. When the man gets top position, he's no Khabib with Folkstyle/Sambo esque Wrist rides, but we've seen video on him in BJJ riding out a 250+ dude with ease prior to a sub + against other relatively big athletes, and he's such a powerhouse if he postures up on you it's wild.

That being said, that's why the grapple stamina would be around 88, because due to his age, and him knowing how taxing it is to wrestle, he picks his spots wisely. You can't expect to ride out a good player with Romero, constantly passing guards like butter and have full stam. The goal should be to posture up with him and do damage ASAP, and the clinch to take 'breaks' and slow down the fight, which he does with superior head position, underhooks and wrist control.

Next game they need to do him justice with his power and his health stats (Conor McGregor in LW has the stats Yoel Romero should have in MW) but the realistic balance to that would be his stamina.

His power would be retained in the later rounds of course, but I reckon 88 Striking and Grapple Stam, along with 89 Endurance would be great.