turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

[Solid_Altair]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

Good point regarding UD3 there. The thing that bothers many about simultaneous transitions is that it has to involve filling a meter somewhere, whether hidden or not, to decide who will win out.

What is the alternative to determine who wins an exchange?

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

What is the alternative to determine who wins an exchange?

I don’t believe there is an alternative to meters for determining who wins a simultaneous transition exchange, even basing it on momentum HOWEVER I do think that could be pretty awesome still being based on momentum and using both left and right sticks on the ground.

It would be even better to have a UD3 system based on momentum though IMO.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

I don’t believe there is an alternative to meters for determining who wins a simultaneous transition exchange, even basing it on momentum HOWEVER I do think that could be pretty awesome still being based on momentum and using both left and right sticks on the ground.

It would be even better to have a UD3 system based on momentum though IMO.

And what would this momentum be based on?

[Not_Entertained]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

Neither. Fluid grappling needs to happen. They need to step back and not think of grappling in terms of mini games. Think of ways to make it free flowing and always moving. Let us control our limbs and freely move them into position. Make every movement require real time counter movement and adjustments. Let me roll my foot into my opponents hip and slide into an armbar or triangle attempt while my opponent has to decide to move his arm inside or outside my leg depending which sub he defends.

I dont know if that makes sense but I would really like to see an entirely new approach to grappling. It shouldnt be the boring part of the game, it should be just as engaging and intense as standup.

I finally agree with you!

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

And what would this momentum be based on?

Momentum would be based on movements of the left stick, essentially shifting weight
to either hold someone down or create momentum to get up.

However, if added to the current system it would only serve to either make a meter
go faster or slower. There's no way around meters with simultaneous grappling.
That's not exactly what I'm looking for personally.

I'm looking for a UD3 momentum based system, where shifting weight to hold someone down or get up
would play a big role in determining a successful transition or transition block.

For example, in a UD3 type ground system where a player is in full guard bottom they would eventually be able to
increase their odds of a successful getup or sweep after gaining enough momentum shifting their weight.
The counter weight on top would only hold the bottom player for so long, based on stats and momentum of bottom player.

Or just go 100% UD3 and figure momentum/shifting weight stuff out later. I would be more than happy
with that system as well.

[neyney00]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

Could just make reversals cost a ton of stamina if they miss to make UD3 grappling even better.

I really, really like your idea about shifting the weight with the left stick tho and having transitions depend on that. That could be something we could all be happy with potentially. Along with tons of new positions, clinch reworked, etc.

I would like that idea + circling the right stick to actually transition (without meters).

I thought circling the right stick would be frowned upon but when you said that I got a chubby buddy.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

Interesting that this was a dead even split.

[SUGATA]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

I played and learned all part of UFC UD and EA UFC.

UD has many good aspects.

But the current EA UFC 2-3 Grappling is much better for me than UD.
Why?

Because as i said just before:

UD - SEMIAUTOMATIC mechanics - most of moves/techniques game is doing under the hood instead of yourself = easier, simpler, may be more fun for somebody.

EA UFC - MANUAL TOTAL CONTROL mechanics - you controls ALL and only you = difficult REQUIRE to learn much Meta and Theory, which is hard to find, but more skill, more challenge, more depth and more fun too WHEN you gain knowledge.

The only con of EA UFC 2-3 for me in Grappling ground (Clinch has many issues and i did thread about it) - is the LUCK of REAL TUTORIAL step-by-step holding your hand over all steps with interactive scenes/challenges after every lesson.

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...-fix-them.html

[Morgan Monkman]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

I'd be happy if they made it so you don't have to memorize every animation to block properly, it also cannot depend on camera angle.

Those are the two biggest things holding it back IMO

[Michaelhimself]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

I don’t like the label “turn based” for UD3’s grappling system. I don’t think “turn based” is what made UD3’s grappling great, and I don’t think the poll should make us decide between “turn based” and “ea”.

What made UD3’s grappling great, was the control. Controlling your opponent was immersive as opposed to the current games.

Controlling your opponent on UD3 was about “holding”, whereas on EA, it’s about “denials”.

On UD3, the mechanic of “holding” your opponent in a position gave a much more satisfying and convincing sense of controlling your opponent. There was a visual animation of your fighter physically clamping down on your opponent, which lasted until you released the controller input. During this time, it was it was very visually convincing that you were indeed holding your opponent in place.

On EA, there is no visual “proof”, if you will, that you’re controlling your opponent. There’s no clamping down or anything... it doesn’t look like there’s any reason your opponent can’t escape. That’s because in the EA games, control is only existent in the form of denials. When your opponent moves, you quickly input a denial... and an animation depicts your fighter physically stopping their opponent’s transition. This is not how control on an MMA game should be; it’s visually unrealistic, it feels weird gameplay-wise, and it ruins the immersion.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

I don’t like the label “turn based” for UD3’s grappling system. I don’t think “turn based” is what made UD3’s grappling great, and I don’t think the poll should make us decide between “turn based” and “ea”.

What made UD3’s grappling great, was the control. Controlling your opponent was immersive as opposed to the current games.

Controlling your opponent on UD3 was about “holding”, whereas on EA, it’s about “denials”.

On UD3, the mechanic of “holding” your opponent in a position gave a much more satisfying and convincing sense of controlling your opponent. There was a visual animation of your fighter physically clamping down on your opponent, which lasted until you released the controller input. During this time, it was it was very visually convincing that you were indeed holding your opponent in place.

On EA, there is no visual “proof”, if you will, that you’re controlling your opponent. There’s no clamping down or anything... it doesn’t look like there’s any reason your opponent can’t escape. That’s because in the EA games, control is only existent in the form of denials. When your opponent moves, you quickly input a denial... and an animation depicts your fighter physically stopping their opponent’s transition. This is not how control on an MMA game should be; it’s visually unrealistic, it feels weird gameplay-wise, and it ruins the immersion.

Yeah, I would love to have those holding animations back from UD3. That's something that needs to be added going forward.

Holding the stick zto deny has a few benefits:

-not effected by online lag

-easier for someone new to grasp

-more intuitive

Gameplay on the ground could still be fun if countering this change with making transitions take less short term stamina.

I would also be happy if these were the only changes they made, in addition to adding many more positions.

[IamDoubiBear]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

EA UFC's main problem is that its grappling exchanges are the polar opposites of real grappling exchanges : instead of having fast paced exchanges with dangerous ground and pound and crazy scrambles, it mainly consists of two guys waiting for the other to move first in order to further block them and then transition. These flaws are inherent to its system due to several of its core concepts :

- stamina-based grappling and denials too powerful

- transitions that are far too slow (and easy to deny)

- No physics-based logic : denials are not animated so you can't see when your opponent misses one (and cannot capitalize on it), you can still block a clinch entry or a transition even if you're striking or have your hands blocking your face (and even when the opponents got his arms fully around you !)... Make it physical and adopt EA MMA stand : Pass to strike, strike to pass ! Create openings while punching your opponent and pass when he cannot deny (while blocking), make it impossible to deny a nearly-completed move, add auto-takedowns in some rare instances where the attacker momentum makes it impossible for him to stop a TD.

- impossibility to hold an opponent to prevent him to transition ; UD3's hold system was much better and more realistic, while simpler to grasp for beginners. GPD should have built on top of it.

- ground and pound too weak ; the block takes far too long to break and postured down or sub positions inflict absolutely no damage, so why try to move if you're safe everywhere ? Just wait for the other to make a mistake ! UD3 had dangerous shots everywhere, even postured down, that prompted people to quickly move because they weren't safe anywhere. Also, rocks on the ground helped to add a little urgency.

- Binary ground and pound : everybody has the same moves (UD3 had loads of different moves on the ground depending on the fighters, helps to add variety), and you can either block, eat the shot or transition. Add ground sways ! Add feints !

- Like many other things, the block system is too binary : either you block or you eat a shot. I thought the best solution would be like in real life, where some shots slip through the block depending on the block stat of the defender, the accuracy (or GNP) stat of the attacker and the state of the block meter. Could be cool to have for standup too.

- Absolutely horrendous sub system with fighters barely moving until they pass a gate, then not moving again until the next one. Where is the fight, the thrill of holding on to your life ? Like everyone here, one thing to say : BRING BACK EA MMA's choke sub system (for every submission). Then figure out how to add sub switches like in UD3 and different positioning depending on the break. I guarantee you you'll see sub stats fly through the roof with that (mainly because it's actually fun to do).

- Illogical stuff : why can't you defend yourself while postured up ? Why can't you hit the guy head in sprawl ? Why no defense in side control ? why no body shots in turtle top ?

With that being said, EA UFC's ground game has some cool ideas too, mainly simultaneous transitions and grappling momentum. But apart from these two things, there is little fun in that area, and I hope we'll see some of the changes that I (and several people, Martial Mind first) listed here and countless times on Youtube, while keeping the good parts of the new system.


Also, sorry for the long post

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

Everyone is so caught up over the simultaneous transitions and I really don't get it. It's built on the core concept of transitions taking much too long to complete. I like the fast, instant transitions of UD3 personally. I really don't see any way to hold the right stick to deny without it necessitating a UD3 system after thinking it through. Because holding to deny 3 or 4 transition attempts would lead to short term stamina needing to drain so much less for each transition attempt that stamina practically wouldn't need to be a factor in filling a meter, and hence a meter essentially disappears from being necessary in the equation.

[1212headkick]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

that settles it. ud3 has won. id like to think people voted twice for ufc 3. ud3 is the mma fnc. i think it was a prideful move to completely abandon the things that set the benchmark for mma games. why have we not even gotten a reason why it cant be in? grappling looks robotic in ufc 3. it does not represent true grappling. ud3 was a perfect grappling sim. its like h1nz. it set the standard for battle Royale games. the striking is beautiful but to make it better have different variations for the same punch. the movement looks slightly stiff but leaps ahead in many ways

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: turn based or ea ufc grappling poll

that settles it. ud3 has won. id like to think people voted twice for ufc 3. ud3 is the mma fnc. i think it was a prideful move to completely abandon the things that set the benchmark for mma games. why have we not even gotten a reason why it cant be in? grappling looks robotic in ufc 3. it does not represent true grappling. ud3 was a perfect grappling sim. its like h1nz. it set the standard for battle Royale games. the striking is beautiful but to make it better have different variations for the same punch. the movement looks slightly stiff but leaps ahead in many ways

I was guessing that people voted twice for UFC 3 too, but just a guess. I understand that Zuffa has/had the code for UD3, one would think this could have been transferred to EA though. They have really done well with the striking though this year. Would still like to see FNC style, 360 degree head movement though.