What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

[aholbert32]

I have no idea if this will be added or not to the next game (fingers crossed that it will) but I was wondering what the criteria should be for judges granting a 10-8 round for grappling:

Should it be simply control time? Damage on the ground? Near stoppages on the ground (assuming ground TKOs are improved)? A combination of all these things (if so what should weigh more?)

Keep in mind, I'm thinking of this more from a game perspective. Real life examples are helpful but I'm really asking what would you have to see in order for a 10-8 grappling round to make sense in the game?

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

I have no idea if this will be added or not to the next game (fingers crossed that it will) but I was wondering what the criteria should be for judges granting a 10-8 round for grappling:

Should it be simply control time? Damage on the ground? Near stoppages on the ground (assuming ground TKOs are improved)? A combination of all these things (if so what should weigh more?)

Keep in mind, I'm thinking of this more from a game perspective. Real life examples are helpful but I'm really asking what would you have to see in order for a 10-8 grappling round to make sense in the game?

Duration and dominance will be the main factors. Making your oppenent defend the whole round with little to no attacking output would also be a key factor.

Reasonably good examples are gastellum vs jarcare round 1 and weidman vs gastellum barring the knockdown.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Ah, you said think about the game. I was about to give some real life examples. I'll sound off anyway.

Anyway, for there to be a 10-8 grappling round the round must go almost entirely or entirely on the round (4-5 mins). Control is a given, you can't be that dominant (10-8) without actually controlling your opponent a lot of time. But it's not the only factor - another factor is damage. I think the Khabib and Conor fight is a great example. Round 1 - great control game for Khabib for the entire round, but it was just control. Yes, it was uncomfortable, yes, Conor couldn't do much, yes, it was dominant, but there was no damage. It wasn't exceptionally dominant, which in MMA terms involves a lot of damage. It's a clear round for Khabib, but it's a 10-9. Now Round 2 is a whole 'nother ball game - this time we had control and a **** ton of damage, brutal, aggressive punches from stacked guard and full guard top. Conor was helpless again, but this time he was getting pummeled too. Now that's a 10-8.

I guess just make the game account for control time first, and then calculate how much significant damage is done on the ground too. I'm actually wondering if simply postured/powerful strikes should contribute too, like the Back side shots to the block. These look really heavy and the other guy's just turtled in a very submissive position. But yeah, control and heavy damage should be the main factors.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Ah, you said think about the game. I was about to give some real life examples. I'll sound off anyway.

Anyway, for there to be a 10-8 grappling round the round must go almost entirely or entirely on the round (4-5 mins). Control is a given, you can't be that dominant (10-8) without actually controlling your opponent a lot of time. But it's not the only factor - another factor is damage. I think the Khabib and Conor fight is a great example. Round 1 - great control game for Khabib for the entire round, but it was just control. Yes, it was uncomfortable, yes, Conor couldn't do much, yes, it was dominant, but there was no damage. It wasn't exceptionally dominant, which in MMA terms involves a lot of damage. It's a clear round for Khabib, but it's a 10-9. Now Round 2 is a whole 'nother ball game - this time we had control and a **** ton of damage, brutal, aggressive punches from stacked guard and full guard top. Conor was helpless again, but this time he was getting pummeled too. Now that's a 10-8.

I guess just make the game account for control time first, and then calculate how much significant damage is done on the ground too. I'm actually wondering if simply postured/powerful strikes should contribute too, like the Back side shots to the block. These look really heavy and the other guy's just turtled in a very submissive position. But yeah, control and heavy damage should be the main factors.

Basically, the damage from HG Postured Up, Crucifix, Side control, Side Saddle, FG Postured Up and Back Mount/Top mount should be factored with control for 10-8 rounds.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Ah, you said think about the game. I was about to give some real life examples. I'll sound off anyway.

Anyway, for there to be a 10-8 grappling round the round must go almost entirely or entirely on the round (4-5 mins). Control is a given, you can't be that dominant (10-8) without actually controlling your opponent a lot of time. But it's not the only factor - another factor is damage. I think the Khabib and Conor fight is a great example. Round 1 - great control game for Khabib for the entire round, but it was just control. Yes, it was uncomfortable, yes, Conor couldn't do much, yes, it was dominant, but there was no damage. It wasn't exceptionally dominant, which in MMA terms involves a lot of damage. It's a clear round for Khabib, but it's a 10-9. Now Round 2 is a whole 'nother ball game - this time we had control and a **** ton of damage, brutal, aggressive punches from stacked guard and full guard top. Conor was helpless again, but this time he was getting pummeled too. Now that's a 10-8.

I guess just make the game account for control time first, and then calculate how much significant damage is done on the ground too. I'm actually wondering if simply postured/powerful strikes should contribute too, like the Back side shots to the block. These look really heavy and the other guy's just turtled in a very submissive position. But yeah, control and heavy damage should be the main factors.

Damage isnt required for 10-8 rounds though. Domination of postion and duration are enough under the new rules. For example having people's backs the whole round and fending off submissions is a 10-8 round.

[Haz____]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

"Position before submission"

Damage is important, but control is the core.

After control, then factor in offense via strikes or subs.

[aholbert32]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

"Position before submission"

Damage is important, but control is the core.

After control, then factor in offense via strikes or subs.

I take you down 30 seconds in to a round and stay in half guard dropping postured down strikes the entire round. You attempt a kimura 3 times while in bottom half guard but never get past the 2nd stage and never get out of half guard.....10-8 round?

I take you down 30 seconds into a round and quickly move to mount. I hold mount for the next 3:30 landing postured down strikes and never attempting a sub. You transition from full mount to half guard to full guard and attempt a triangle with 30 seconds to go that gets to the third stage....10-8 round?

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Damage and attempts to finish the fight (the closer to finishing the better) have to be there, it's not just about control. It also matters what your opponent is able to do. Like aholbert said, on the feet outstriking and outstriking by a certain amount matter. 10-8s are about total domination where the opponent practically isn't able to do anything and in addition to that, they are getting wrecked (i.e. take tons of damage). A clearly won round does not necessarily equate to a 10-8. Once again, Khabib - Conor R1 is a 10-9. Khabib - Conor R2 is a 10-8. In the game that would mean getting constantly denied, eating many heavy shots from postured positions and not being able to mount any offense or threat. And all of that happening for pretty much the entire round.

[Good Grappler]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Control time, near stoppages, damage, and successful takedowns are all reasons to win a 10-8 grappling round.

Damage and near stoppages should of course be weighed most heavily, but you should be able to win a 10-8 round on control time alone.

Here’s how I see it working.

Rounds can be scored 10-8 on control alone, as long as:

- The attacker’s control time is at least 4 minutes.

- The attacker absorbs no significant damage during the time spent standing.

- At least 80% of the control time must occur from dominant positions. (Includes time spent in submission attempts)

- Even if opponent escapes or successfully reverses the attacker - the round can still be scored 10-8 assuming all the above criteria are still met.


Here’s a super detailed example of how I perceive CONTROL TIME winning a 10-8 round in-game:

Round begins, fighter A and fighter B meet in center of octagon. Fighter A immediately shoots a takedown, but fighter B defends. Fighter B circles for a moment, then throws a few punches. Fighter A ducks under and shoots a single leg, and after a brief struggle, takes down fighter B into half guard 25 seconds into the round.

Within seconds, fighter A passes to full mount. After 1 minute of holding mount, denying escape attempts, and landing postured down elbows... fighter A attempts an armbar. Fighter B defends, and retains half guard. Fighter A simply passes straight to side control. Fighter A holds side control for about 30 seconds, landing a few elbows and knees, before transitioning to crucifix. Fighter B escapes, but fighter A immediately passes to mount. After denying a few escape attempts, fighter A postures up to throw strikes, but fighter B rolls and gives up their back.

Half way through the round, Fighter A has Fighter B’s back and has dominated positionally the entire round thus far. Fighter A flattens out Fighter B, and lands a few minor punches, before attempting an RNC. Fighter B escapes the choke, but is still flatted with fighter A on their back. Fighter A maintains this position for another minute, shutting down escape attempts, attacking with chokes, and landing minor strikes.

Fighter B finally retains half guard, and stands up. However, fighter A immediately closes distance and clinches with Fighter B, tripping them back to the mat. Fighter A transitions to mount, and lands some hard punches. Fighter B again gives up their back, where Fighter A attacks with a choke until the bell rings.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Damage and attempts to finish the fight (the closer to finishing the better) have to be there, it's not just about control. It also matters what your opponent is able to do. Like aholbert said, on the feet outstriking and outstriking by a certain amount matter. 10-8s are about total domination where the opponent practically isn't able to do anything and in addition to that, they are getting wrecked (i.e. take tons of damage). A clearly won round does not necessarily equate to a 10-8. Once again, Khabib - Conor R1 is a 10-9. Khabib - Conor R2 is a 10-8. In the game that would mean getting constantly denied, eating many heavy shots from postured positions and not being able to mount any offense or threat. And all of that happening for pretty much the entire round.

Control is all that’s needed if you have a dominant position per Big John.

Khabib held a relatively neutral position for most of the 1st.

Now if you have control time but took a decent amount of damage then that’s a 10-9. If you control a dominant position with 0 damage that’s a 10-8

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Control is all that’s needed if you have a dominant position per Big John.

Khabib held a relatively neutral position for most of the 1st.

Now if you have control time but took a decent amount of damage then that’s a 10-9. If you control a dominant position with 0 damage that’s a 10-8

Yeah, I agree, if the position's dominant enough you can make a case too. Good Grappler's post is very good, there can be exhaustion, etc, that are involved as well. Aholbert was asking what would be needed for a 10-8 in game terms though, while we're discussing real life But you can't talk about the one without talking about the other.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Control is all that’s needed if you have a dominant position per Big John.

Khabib held a relatively neutral position for most of the 1st.

Now if you have control time but took a decent amount of damage then that’s a 10-9. If you control a dominant position with 0 damage that’s a 10-8

Not this again.

Here he actually breaks down what goes into scoring a 10-8 round. Whenever he talks about domination he keeps talking about going for submissions or strikes. Trying to stall in mount does not constitute as a 10-8 and even if it did it would be a terrible idea to implement in the game as it would be an extremely unfun style to play against.

I would definitely emphasize damage for a 10-8. However, the issue with the current ground and pound is how black and white the damage system is. For example, it is nigh impossible to KO someone from 100 to 0 in guard. Having 20% health is the same as having 100%. You can throw half a dozen strike and there is no visible or gameplay effect on the fighter but then the 7th love boop drops them dead and the fight is over. If GNP could rock the opponent it would be easier to determine whether you inflicted enough damage.

[aholbert32]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Yeah, I agree, if the position's dominant enough you can make a case too. Good Grappler's post is very good, there can be exhaustion, etc, that are involved as well. Aholbert was asking what would be needed for a 10-8 in game terms though, while we're discussing real life But you can't talk about the one without talking about the other.

LOL. You guys have to find a way though. Thats why I asked those two questions earlier because simply saying "control" or "postiton over submissions" leaves holes in the judging logic.

Does a guy hanging in half guard for a full round without attempting a sub or any significant damage deserve a 10-8? In that case, he has "control" the whole round. What if they go on bottom is attempting subs?

What if you have total control for 4:30 but I get a close sub in the last :30?

I dont really need real life examples unless those examples led to an actual 10-8 by the real life judges.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Not this again.

Here he actually breaks down what goes into scoring a 10-8 round. Whenever he talks about domination he keeps talking about going for submissions or strikes. Trying to stall in mount does not constitute as a 10-8 and even if it did it would be a terrible idea to implement in the game as it would be an extremely unfun style to play against.

I would definitely emphasize damage for a 10-8. However, the issue with the current ground and pound is how black and white the damage system is. For example, it is nigh impossible to KO someone from 100 to 0 in guard. Having 20% health is the same as having 100%. You can throw half a dozen strike and there is no visible or gameplay effect on the fighter but then the 7th love boop drops them dead and the fight is over. If GNP could rock the opponent it would be easier to determine whether you inflicted enough damage.

He also says dangerous postions that your oppenent has to defend to get themselves out. So mount, back mount, crucifix, side saddle are all dangerous postions you oppenent has to defend to get themselves out. He even says everything is based upon postion, for domination.

So we shouldn't put realistic things in as you might not like them nice. Also is stalling in mount possible? People get stood up all the time in mount.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Not this again.

Here he actually breaks down what goes into scoring a 10-8 round. Whenever he talks about domination he keeps talking about going for submissions or strikes. Trying to stall in mount does not constitute as a 10-8 and even if it did it would be a terrible idea to implement in the game as it would be an extremely unfun style to play against.

I would definitely emphasize damage for a 10-8. However, the issue with the current ground and pound is how black and white the damage system is. For example, it is nigh impossible to KO someone from 100 to 0 in guard. Having 20% health is the same as having 100%. You can throw half a dozen strike and there is no visible or gameplay effect on the fighter but then the 7th love boop drops them dead and the fight is over. If GNP could rock the opponent it would be easier to determine whether you inflicted enough damage.

I mean he literally says you can have a 10-8 with little to no damage. He also says it’s all about position.

I dont see why that would be an issue. Onus would be on the bottom fighter to stay active so someone isnt just laying on top of them in mount.

As far as it not being fun it all depends who you ask. If the grappling is tuned to be more fast paced and include more scrambles it definitely can be. There are also plenty of people that enjoy grappling just as much as striking. I dont think it’s fair of you to declare what is considered fun.