Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean peoples emotions dictate how they feel about the game, everyone's complaints are based on if they like or dislike an area of the game.

"Basically have three concrete options- an arcade toggle for casuals, a sim toggle for sim, and ranked/esfl for comp. A mix can be the base game."

Oh another contentious issue, splitting up the small player base will not win you any favours.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

The undermining goes both ways though. I mention MMAGame's poll for equalized stats in ranked and the response is "those fans are casual", "they would agree with anything he posts" and "i would beat most of those guys so they dont really want that".

Its difficult to determine what type of gamers a person is unless they identify themselves. Assumptions based on information can be made though. OS really consists of less than 50 regular posters. Most (if not all) are sim focused players. Some are focused only offline. Some are a mix. Some are online only. All are pretty much concerned with having a realistic sim game.

On the other hand, if I go to Reddit and see someone posting about running, its safe to assume they are a online comp player. Offline players dont care about running because the AI doesnt really do that. I've only heard the term "running" used by online comp players.

Given that its impossible to know what type of player everyone is, you likely would argue that the poll numbers should be what governs a decision. Its proof, right? Thats fine as long as it works both ways.

Like I said, the devs could ignore the running complaints and say "that Reddit thread shows that 50 plus people want circling", lets add it. The flip side is they say "Game's poll has 1100 people (mix of casual and comps) who want equalized stats in ranked so lets add it because a significant part of the community voted a certain way."

I would like to avoid that. I would like the devs to look at everything and decide whats best for the game. The way this community could help is by posting alot of evidence that shows that more than just OS wants something.

A reddit post like 1212 linked helps because of the poll but the actual comments hurt his argument too. So more is needed.

MMAGAME's poll supports what I am saying about mode specific tunings.

You can see why some players would want equalized stats in ranked.. most comp fighting games like MK, SF, etc focus more on perks, moves, tiers, and uniqueness etc than stats to distinguish characters. Stat differences are more of an issue in this game because the game does not reward using lower stat fighters enough. Higher ratios between high and low stat fighters would reward people that demonstrate more skill by winning with lower stat fighters.

Mode specific tunings, like other games, allow to balance separating between skill levels. It's a reoccurring issue that can be resolved by accommodating the skill levels with tunings that account for the difference in players preference across skill level.

In the case of lateral sprint, as I mentioned earlier, cutting the cage can become more effective in higher divisions while circling away can be more effective in quick match and/or lower divisions of ranked. This accounts for complaints against pressure more commonly seen in the lower levels and against evading at higher levels. Most casuals are not as skilled as comp, granted the few that could be as skilled. Mode specific tuned lateral sprint could actually benefit what is probably the silent majority of casuals that have trouble dealing with pressure.

As for polls, I think rational arguments should outweigh emotional complaints. You already showed that you took time to skim through the comments and weighed that alongside raw numbers. Emotional arguments like comp don't want to deal with 'running' because it's not fun or arguments like not wanting to deal with pressure because it's not fun should supplement rational arguments not become the basis of decision making. Also fun is subjective. Tuning according to modes and skill level allows the devs to cater to fun of different groups simultaneously by molding modes to what is in demand by the relevant people. Base game could be a mix for casual, sim, and comp.

Basically have three concrete options- an arcade toggle for casuals, a sim toggle for sim, and ranked/esfl for comp.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Emotional arguments like comp don't want to deal with 'running' because it's not fun or arguments like not wanting to deal with pressure because it's not fun should supplement rational arguments not become the basis of decision making.

This is baffling. He is not arguing that "realistic circling" should not be in the game because competitive players wouldn't like it. Instead, he is merely reporting that there is an influential playerbase on another media platform that is inherently opposed to changes that buff defensive playstyles. This is why the circlejerk opinions here do not always get patched into the game.

If you actually want to argue their position then approach them. Don't shoot the messenger.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean peoples emotions dictate how they feel about the game, everyone's complaints are based on if they like or dislike an area of the game.

"Basically have three concrete options- an arcade toggle for casuals, a sim toggle for sim, and ranked/esfl for comp. A mix can be the base game."

Oh another contentious issue, splitting up the small player base will not win you any favours.

Mode specific tunings allows the devs to cater to the fun of casual, sim, and comp individually.

Ranked already exists, quick match already has several toggles. This is just a toggle for arcade/sim in quick match and offline. ESFL can have its own tab in Live events, with settings adjusted for ESFL like no commentary.

This is baffling. He is not arguing that "realistic circling" should not be in the game because competitive players wouldn't like it. Instead, he is merely reporting that there is an influential playerbase on another media platform that is inherently opposed to changes that buff defensive playstyles. This is why the circlejerk opinions here do not always get patched into the game.

If you actually want to argue their position then approach them. Don't shoot the messenger.

Except he's already said that comp players don't want it because it's not fun for them to deal with 'running'.

Also I don't know why you keep trying to strawman me. I have repeatedly stated that aholbert is presenting arguments on behalf of comp. I am just pointing out ways that comp's complaint of 'running' can be accommodated like many tunings have done before like bobble head days, body 1212, low single, etc.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Except he's already said that comp players don't want it because it's not fun for them to deal with 'running'.

*sigh* That's literally what reporting is. It doesn't mean he agrees with them. If you actually want to have a conversation about this topic then leave your bubble and go to the Discord channel and argue the people who genuinely feel that way, not the person who is informing you that those people exist.

I am just pointing out ways that comp's complaint of 'running' can be accommodated like many tunings have done before like bobble head days, body 1212, low single, etc.

It's a **** point because nobody here disagrees with it. They exist on the Discord channel. You are having imaginary debates here.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

*sigh* That's literally what reporting is. It doesn't mean he agrees with them. If you actually want to have a conversation about this topic then leave your bubble and go to the Discord channel and argue the people who genuinely feel that way, not the person who is informing you that those people exist.



It's a **** point because nobody here disagrees with it. They exist on the Discord channel. You are having imaginary debates here.

Again I don't know why you keep trying to strawman me. I have repeatedly stated that aholbert is presenting arguments on behalf of comp.

The game isn't at it's height in population now. Most of whom remain are comp for ESFL/ranked. aholbert already said it's not about convincing comp, it's about establishing a consensus or at least a 2 to 1 against comp from casuals and sim. Which is the point, we are still debating how to establish what casuals think in regards to lateral sprint as it's going mostly on assumptions now.

Complaints against pressure more commonly seen in the lower levels and against evading at higher levels. Most casuals are not as skilled as comp, granted the few that could be as skilled. Mode specific tuned lateral sprint could actually benefit what is probably the silent majority of casuals that have trouble dealing with pressure.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Again I don't know why you keep trying to strawman me. I have repeatedly stated that aholbert is presenting arguments on behalf of comp.

So why are you begging for him to have a fake argument with you if it is soooo obvious to you that he doesn't actually agree with their position?

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

So why are you begging for him to have a fake argument with you if it is soooo obvious to you that he doesn't actually agree with their position?

So providing feedback to what he presents for comp is begging for an argument? He has no problem addressing arguments presented by others against comp complaining against 'running' and for lateral sprint to be in. But he doesn't want to address my arguments because he doesn't have 'fun' arguing with me for reasons that he has done before like ignoring new information and not having any counter arguments. He's made it clear he wants to address arguments he can have fun arguing against. He's not having fun with me.

Lateral sprint can actually addresses low level complaints against pressure and high level complaints against evading with mode specific tunings... which invalidates comp's complaints of 'running' if it's as easily punished as body 1212 and bobble head has become.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

MMAGAME's poll supports what I am saying about mode specific tunings.


Mode specific tunings, like other games, allow to balance separating between skill levels. It's a reoccurring issue that can be resolved by accommodating the skill levels with tunings that account for the difference in players preference across skill level.

In the case of lateral sprint, as I mentioned earlier, cutting the cage can become more effective in higher divisions while circling away can be more effective in quick match and/or lower divisions of ranked. This accounts for complaints against pressure more commonly seen in the lower levels and against evading at higher levels. Most casuals are not as skilled as comp, granted the few that could be as skilled. Mode specific tuned lateral sprint could actually benefit what is probably the silent majority of casuals that have trouble dealing with pressure.

As for polls, I think rational arguments should outweigh emotional complaints. You already showed that you took time to skim through the comments and weighed that alongside raw numbers. Emotional arguments like comp don't want to deal with 'running' because it's not fun or arguments like not wanting to deal with pressure because it's not fun should supplement rational arguments not become the basis of decision making. Also fun is subjective. Tuning according to modes and skill level allows the devs to cater to fun of different groups simultaneously by molding modes to what is in demand by the relevant people. Base game could be a mix for casual, sim, and comp.

Basically have three concrete options- an arcade toggle for casuals, a sim toggle for sim, and ranked/esfl for comp.

Sure, you could go with mode specific tuning. It doesnt solve 1212's issue with ranked though. He wants a realistic ranked and if you tune it to what most comp fighters want, it likely wont be that realistic....and really thats all we are talking about.

Your suggestion for sim modifications isnt new other than you are trying to apply it to circling. People have been demanding a sim mode since UD3. Offline, I would love that. ****, I kind of already have it with sliders. Philly can attest that I've been saying sliders or a sim mode should be added to quick match for years. The only issue is whether sim modes or modifications should be added to ranked and that is the only area that comp players care about.

I play UFC 3 because its fun to me. Thats it. I love MMA and I think the game is fun so I play it. I think thats the case with most people. Thats not a negative. No one buys this game knowing they arent going to enjoy it.

What someone finds "fun" is subjective but the goal of the dev/game company is to find what the highest number of people will find fun. They want to sell to the most people possible.

Now I know that isnt what people want to hear but its true. If comments, surveys, focus groups, social media and polls show that people prefer the game a certain way....those people win because they want to sell the game.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

So providing feedback to what he presents for comp is begging for an argument? He has no problem addressing arguments presented by others against comp complaining against 'running' and for lateral sprint to be in. But he doesn't want to address my arguments because he doesn't have 'fun' arguing with me for reasons that he has done before like ignoring new information and not having any counter arguments. He's made it clear he wants to address arguments he can have fun arguing against. He's not having fun with me.

Lateral sprint can actually addresses low level complaints against pressure and high level complaints against evading with mode specific tunings... which invalidates comp's complaints of 'running' if it's as easily punished as body 1212 and bobble head has become.

I never said that. I said I dont enjoy discussing the game with you and I dont. Thats different.

I'll make it clear. This is just my take. From my experience, I've found you very stubborn and inflexible with your arguments. Its not because I dont have counter arguments. I'm a lawyer. I have counters for everything.

I dont enjoy it because the counters dont matter to you. They never do in your arguments. You have your position and you refuse to move. You also occasionally will make up statements (like you did above) to buff your arguments.

Now thats just my take. No one is scared to debate you. No one lacks counter arguments. I just dont like wasting my time arguing with someone who in my opinion is inflexible. That part isnt fun for me.

So you can accept that or you can continue to do what you have for the past 4 days which is pout about it and whine that I wont acknowledge your arguments.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Sure, you could go with mode specific tuning. It doesnt solve 1212's issue with ranked though. He wants a realistic ranked and if you tune it to what most comp fighters want, it likely wont be that realistic....and really thats all we are talking about.

Your suggestion for sim modifications isnt new other than you are trying to apply it to circling. People have been demanding a sim mode since UD3. Offline, I would love that. ****, I kind of already have it with sliders. Philly can attest that I've been saying sliders or a sim mode should be added to quick match for years. The only issue is whether sim modes or modifications should be added to ranked and that is the only area that comp players care about.

I play UFC 3 because its fun to me. Thats it. I love MMA and I think the game is fun so I play it. I think thats the case with most people. Thats not a negative. No one buys this game knowing they arent going to enjoy it.

What someone finds "fun" is subjective but the goal of the dev/game company is to find what the highest number of people will find fun. They want to sell to the most people possible.

Now I know that isnt what people want to hear but its true. If comments, surveys, focus groups, social media and polls show that people prefer the game a certain way....those people win because they want to sell the game.

I never said that. I said I dont enjoy discussing the game with you and I dont. Thats different.

I'll make it clear. This is just my take. From my experience, I've found you very stubborn and inflexible with your arguments. Its not because I dont have counter arguments. I'm a lawyer. I have counters for everything.

I dont enjoy it because the counters dont matter to you. They never do in your arguments. You have your position and you refuse to move. You also occasionally will make up statements (like you did above) to buff your arguments.

Now thats just my take. No one is scared to debate you. No one lacks counter arguments. I just dont like wasting my time arguing with someone who in my opinion is inflexible. That part isnt fun for me.

So you can accept that or you can continue to do what you have for the past 4 days which is pout about it and whine that I wont acknowledge your arguments.

You already conceded you don't like to argue with me because it's not fun for you, but have no problem arguing others because it's more fun than with me.

It'd still be realistic as lateral sprint would actually be in. It's just that tunings would account for player habits across skill levels. So cutting the cage is more effective at higher level meanwhile circling away is more effective at lower levels. People like 1212 can still be satisfied as the tunings are balancing not at the expense of realism since lateral sprint is still in.

The point that people have more trouble with pressure at lower levels and comp have more trouble with evasion at higher levels parallels reality.

Also I am not presenting sim/arcade mode as something new... you reach far to try to discredit me lol. It doesn't matter to me if I am the first or last person to support a good idea. I wasn't the first to suggest stiff arms, mobile grappling/striking, etc but I support them regardless.

Different toggles can allow the devs to suit modes to different audiences. It's already been shown by you that devs are interested in satisfying all groups. Arcade mode attracts its own people and same with sim they satisfy different markets.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

So providing feedback to what he presents for comp is begging for an argument?

Yep. He is not "presenting" their opinions as you put it because he wants you to address them. He simply wanted to let you know that those people exist and have influence on EA.

You constantly begging that he addresses your "feedback" only proves that you seem to want him to argue.

He has no problem addressing arguments presented by others against comp complaining against 'running' and for lateral sprint to be in.

He reports how they feel. If Aholbert agreed with their reasoning then he would probably yknow... agree with them. He has stated on numerous occasions that he disagrees with them.

But he doesn't want to address my arguments because he doesn't have 'fun' arguing with me for reasons that he has done before like ignoring new information and not having any counter arguments. He's made it clear he wants to address arguments he can have fun arguing against. He's not having fun with me.

"Arguing" with you is unfun because it feels like you get fixated on something arbitrary or random and repeat your "argument" ad nauseam even if it was addressed 10 pages ago. Also, it feels like everything has to be spelled out for you.

Which invalidates comp's complaints of 'running' if it's as easily punished as body 1212 and bobble head has become.

Then go invalidate them and tell them that on Discord if that's your motive. Once again, comp players are inherently against defensive playstyles regardless of their viability or counterplay.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Yep. He is not "presenting" their opinions as you put it because he wants you to address them. He simply wanted to let you know that those people exist and have influence on EA.

You constantly begging that he addresses your "feedback" only proves that you seem to want him to argue.



He reports how they feel. If Aholbert agreed with their reasoning then he would probably yknow... agree with them. He has stated on numerous occasions that he disagrees with them.



"Arguing" with you is unfun because it feels like you get fixated on something arbitrary or random and repeat your "argument" ad nauseam even if it was addressed 10 pages ago. Also, it feels like everything has to be spelled out for you.



Then go invalidate them and tell them that on Discord if that's your motive. Once again, comp players are inherently against defensive playstyles regardless of their viability or counterplay.

I am allowed to address what he presents regardless of whether he wants me to or not. I already told you alholbert said we need a consensus or 2 to 1, not convince comp. Being against defensive playstyles regardless of viability and counterplay, is unreasonable. Devs already mentioned they are interested in appealing to the wider audience so mode specific tunings achieves just that.

Also you haven't proved all comp players are inherently against defensive play styles. We can see many pressure fighters already enjoy punishing 'runners', many comp could have more fun with easier punishment for 'running'. Same thing already happened with body 1212, bobble head etc.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Also, it feels like everything has to be spelled out for you.

Once again, comp players are inherently against defensive playstyles regardless of their viability or counterplay.

Also you haven't proved all comp players are inherently against defensive play styles.

*Sigh* see what I mean? It has already been established that, generally speaking, comp players dislike defensive playstyles, labelling them as "running".

OBVIOUSLY not every player who has been in ESFL or whatever it is called (awful name btw) feels that way.

I am allowed to address what he presents regardless of whether he wants me to or not.

Yet you are not entitled to receive a response.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

*Sigh* see what I mean? It has already been established that, generally speaking, comp players dislike defensive playstyles, labelling them as "running".

OBVIOUSLY not every player who has been in ESFL or whatever it is called (awful name btw) feels that way.



Yet you are not entitled to receive a response.

All that has been established is that it's been reported that some comp players dislike based on anecdotes. You haven't establish that comp players inherently dislike defensive playstyles. You can actually see in ESFL people use a variety of styles, the commentators also constantly point out how high level they are for evading or pressuring depending on the need. Imagine how it reads if you applied this to classic boxing games, that comp doesn't want to deal with the evasion of fighters like Ali.

I haven't said I am entitled to a response, keep trying to spin this. I already told him he can ignore me if he wants. He could've ignored me above like he said he would but he still replies to me.

The point is there wouldn't be a meaningful need to complain about lateral sprint if it were balanced in ranked accordingly.