Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

How can someone say they support it but literally are playing pressure apologist and say theyre on our side is beyond me. Very clear where people standd and who matters. IMO you shouldn't be a gc and be allowed to represent ea(clearly the consumer doesnt matter) if you participate in outright bully tactics. He creates a ****ty vibe here. We present ideas rooted solely in reality and we here "BUT....BUT...****NNERRRRZZZZZ" theres gotta be someone whos not a deack and who loves the community who can do this job. Most people in top 100 exploit. Thats who he trusts for his arguments. Divide and conquer tactics clearly in play here

Look man if you want me removed as a GC...cool. Seriously, I do this **** for fun. I dont get paid for it. I dont need free trips to Vancouver. People here know that the things that I've worked on in this game have helped immensely. Devs will tell you that. Users will tell you that. If the devs didnt like my work....I would be gone. Its not like they havent let go of GCs. In fact, 3 of the first 7 are now gone.

Calling me a pressure apologist either means you havent read any of the threads I participated in about pressure or you are just trolling or both.

There is no divide and conquer here. There is a reasonable side and an unreasonable side. There is a side on OS that loves realism but also recognizes that there needs to be compromise in areas where other people have other views. There is another side where people love realism but dont give a **** about other perspectives. Its clear which side you are on. Its part of the reason you constantly lie about things to try to buff your arguments. Its also why you wont actually put any weight (actual proof or money) behind your argument.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

But. WHY don't they want it.

A real actual reason beyond ~"Duhhh people will just run all fight and not mash buttons with me!"

That's where a discussion can happen. In the "whys".

You can't just say~"Well these few players wont like it, soooo too bad I guess"

Ok Lets do this. No more hyperbole.

The real actual reason is they dont think that every aspect of the game has to be couched in realism. They dont think that giving players more movement tools will result in a fun meta for the game and they feel like it could result in more running.

The devs are concerned about realism but they are also concerned that people who play the game consider it fun. So while this community (including me) would consider more outside tools fun, the devs also have to take in consideration that many people have stated clearly that they dont want "running" to be encouraged and some have stated specifically that more movement tools will be a buff to "running".

Thats it. Thats their argument. Now you can disagree with that. I do. But that doesnt mean that they or the devs dont consider their arguments valid.

So thats the why. Its not a mechanics argument yet. Its whether the devs should ignore that part of the community or not.

What makes the argument tough is that its hard to argue against what someone finds is "fun". I love NBA2k. I have my settings to where its realistic as it can be. I play friends who hate those settings. They want more dunks, less fouls. They consider that fun. I dont but I cant argue that they shouldnt consider that kind of game "fun".

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Yesterday I hit a side lunge to avoid an incoming knee and it tracked me and hit my head.


My opponent was Bisping and I was Rockhold.


Aside from tracking issues and a myriad of other things I have in my list, I really think the game would benefit from adding:

A Front and Side Block. Watching Iaquinta vs Cerrone reminded me of this.

Parrying against specific straight strikes + no freeze up and you can only counter with the strike you parried, along with a cool down if you mistimed a parry so there's no parry spam like UFC 2. Maybe a body kick parry as well with a much stricter window.


Have checking and catching kicks be a different input instead of it just being low block. When discussing what inputs to use, Martial and I thought about either L3, or R2+ Flicking down on the Right stick like UD3 like he's mentioned before. Any other ideas would be great too.


Adding HOOK range. 1212headkick talks about why the check hook is damn near useless, and I, amongst many others agree. It's also why a lot of hooks land where they shouldn't, and why things are so sketchy with elbows vs hooks as well.


Lateral shuffling + better cage cutting.


Better fluidity with pivots + counters off pivots.


And of course, different animations for different level moves.

@Phillyboi Advaita went 7-0 for the first ESFL season, beating guys like Papadoc60, Preunited, GOAT_1099 , Uni and Kenetic_NRG by basically hanging by the cage and rarely taking a step forward, generally just planning to interrupt with planted strikes, taking advantage of the vulnerability moving forward brings + and his striking is supplemented by the fact that his side control is the stuff of nightmares for most gamers.

The game is slightly different now due to the tuner, but it's a pretty damn effective style when you realize that hey, if I just hang back and have phenomenal timing, offer significant offence so my opponent has to respect what I do, and know solid counters like the slip counters for example.

It's why I have fun fighting the dude, I like chess matches. Definitely check out his fight from last night on ESFL. http://www.twitch.tv/esflgaming/v/42...4?sr=a&t=7118s

That dude is also a grappling god. He puts himself against the fence but doesn't really have to fear being grappled against the cage and he's great in the pocket defensively.

But that fight is a great example of being able to gas someone who is fighting at an insane pace. Dude tired out a Tony Ferg in the first round.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

1212 and Haz I really don't think your listening to us here. If you want a discussion about game mechanics it will die reasonably quickly as we are all in the same camp. This will not go anywhere unless someone from the opposing camp speak or we will speak for them through experiences, I've fought for this from day 1, I've shown that and yous still haven't listened to me. FCB x Finlay x BTW.

Your painting Aholbert as the bad guy here when he's just showing you that the opposing side does exist and is very prominent, they just aren't active here anymore.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Our discussion on the topic was rather cut short so I apologies. But here a few methods of decreasing the amount people get hit + to lower the amount of blocking.

Lower the range of moving strikes

IRL most people do not throw strikes while moving an awful lot. Limiting the distance normal moving strikes cover could help people adjust to proper range while fight and cause a lot more shots to miss by a fraction.

Change the command off lunging strikes
Changing the command from a flick, which is unreliable, to something else will make people consciously use these strikes more often creating a dynamic where peolple would choose to mix up stationary, moving and lunging strikes more often.

Decrease accuracy of moving strikes
Increase the chances of strike moving slighly off from the selected target and for it to land just off.

Add better hit detection for shots to hit shoulders, chests and gloves
Allow shots to hit these areas more often lowers the percantage of people getting hit in a realistic manner.

Change small lunges command from stick flick to something more reliable
Increases the chances of these being used more, also make the animation slightly more pronounced to encourage use as well as confirm use.

Add a greater benefit to using stationary strikes
By making these strikes far more accurate and somewhat faster will encourage people to use them more, this decreases chance of peopme getting hit as they arent covering as much distance, but will be more used due to the reasons given.

Add a parry system
Give a new tool that can be used to defence against combos and block breaking, encourages mix ups and more creative combos.

Add arm health decrease
Arm health should decrease over time making blocking less viable. The more you use block the less blocking health you will have in the long run. This is a very realsitic change as fighters deliberately throw high kicks to damage fighters fore arms, which lowers power, speed and there ability to block over time.

Add RT+RB lateral movement
Angling off is essential to not getting hit, currently we can only move back to not get hit. Would work similar to lunges but not as pronouced, would work similarly to multiple small lunges cause the fighter to reset to be able to land.

Add better wresting and takedowns
By making takedowns and wrestling closer to reality it will make people throw less as even if they defend the enitial takedown they still could get taken down.

Add more vulnerabilty for blocking wrong
Blocking wrong should creste a vulnerbailty spike, or at least a greater one. This decreases people from blocking as they would more likely use the other defensive tools.

Greatly reduce the stamina cost of using special movement
Activity encourage people to move more, this would be balanced by giving higher vulnerbailty as well as consistent use be given a long term stamina tax, would have to be worked on a × system rather than active decrease.

Just some thoughts hopefully we can continue this discussion.

A DM I sent to Aholbert on 11th of January showing what I think if you's don't believe me. I can follow this up with 100s of other posts I've made since day 1, you's just aren't listening to what we are saying.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

^ See what is not being acknowledged is that it hasn't been shown comp would be against balanced lateral sprint it's only been assumed that comp would be against balanced 'running'.

Several discrepancies have been pointed out such as tunings to make cutting the cage more effective against 'running' like slowed movement and increased stamina tax with your back against the cage- GPD already said he wants to make cage cutting more effective anyway. You don't see people complaining about body 1212 spam anymore because tunings made it ineffective, similar tunings can negate comp complaints of 'running'.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

^ See what is not being acknowledged is that it hasn't been shown comp would be against balanced lateral sprint it's only been assumed that comp would be against balanced 'running'.

Several discrepancies have been pointed out such as tunings to make cutting the cage more effective against 'running' like slowed movement and increased stamina tax with your back against the cage- GPD already said he wants to make cage cutting more effective anyway. You don't see people complaining about body 1212 spam anymore because tunings made it ineffective, similar tunings can negate comp complaints of 'running'.

They were against the slightest change, they were against the current retreat and were against its stamina drain being removed, have a look through the old threads on this topic and you can see it.

Honestly have a look and hopefully yous can understand what we are talking about.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

They were against the slightest change, they were against the current retreat and were against its stamina drain being removed, have a look through the old threads on this topic and you can see it.

Honestly have a look and hopefully yous can understand what we are talking about.

I have read those threads, yours and 1212s.

It goes into what I am saying. If it were balanced against 'running' away, there wouldn't be a need to complain about not having 'fun' because if they hate 'running' as much as it's claimed they could have more fun shutting down and punishing runners easier. There's already people that take pleasure in punishing 'running'- aka most pressure fighters, and conversely 'runners' punish pressure with evasion... which in this context of the game is a major way to drain stamina.

You can see why these few comp players would have an agenda against it.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I have read those threads, yours and 1212s.

It goes into what I am saying. If it were balanced against 'running' away, there wouldn't be a need to complain about not having 'fun' because if they hate 'running' as much as it's claimed they could have more fun shutting down and punishing runners easier. There's already people that take pleasure in punishing 'running'- aka most pressure fighters, and conversely 'runners' punish pressure with evasion... which in this context of the game is a major way to drain stamina.

You can see why these few comp players would have an agenda against it.

I mean any change that can impact there style they will be against, that's clear to see. But some already believe running is viable and is the meta, maybe not rn but definitely at points during the cycle. How do you then expect to achieve balance when people already say there is enough and sometimes too much?

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean any change that can impact there style they will be against, that's clear to see. But some already believe running is viable and is the meta, maybe not rn but definitely at points during the cycle. How do you then expect to achieve balance when people already say there is enough and sometimes too much?

Generally in this game pressure has been the meta at lower levels and evasion at higher levels. That's more of a player issue than meta. What distinguishes the meta is competition at more comparable levels.

There can be mode specific tunings like other games have to adjust to and accommodate the differing skill levels... For example, lateral sprint could even be included in ranked but come with mode specific tunings that make cage cutting more effective, in parallel in quick match or lower divisions of ranked etc could have tunings that make lateral sprint more effective.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean any change that can impact there style they will be against, that's clear to see. But some already believe running is viable and is the meta, maybe not rn but definitely at points during the cycle. How do you then expect to achieve balance when people already say there is enough and sometimes too much?

Generally in this game pressure has been the meta at lower levels and evasion at higher levels. That's more of a player issue than meta. What distinguishes the meta is competition at more comparable levels.

There can be mode specific tunings like other games have to adjust to and accommodate the differing skill levels... For example, lateral sprint could even be included in ranked but come with mode specific tunings that make cage cutting more effective, in parallel in quick match or lower divisions of ranked etc could have tunings that make lateral sprint more effective.

In fact we already have examples of mode specific tunings- at higher divisions of ranked we have competitive hud which hides your opponent's hud. There's also separated player pools, apparently there isn't open quick match anymore- but I don't know if that has changed since launch.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

They were against the slightest change, they were against the current retreat and were against its stamina drain being removed, have a look through the old threads on this topic and you can see it.

Honestly have a look and hopefully yous can understand what we are talking about.

This.

Last year, many of them were against the most basic movement buffs. I wish I could show you guys the posts in those ESFL chats or the arguments I had with some behind the scenes. Any significant (and some not so significant) suggestions were always analyzed from the perspective of "will it increase running".

If the answer was even "yes but.....", that was going to be an issue. The good news is the devs ignored some of that noise and still went ahead and buffed movement some. But there is no guarantee that the devs will agree to that again. Especially if the comp players are move vocal this time.

Thats why I've suggested that a consensus is the best approach. If you have sim, casual and comp fans all on the same page, its hard for hardcore comp players to argue that this wouldnt be good for the game. Those hardcore comp guys stand out as refusing to except change simply because they want to maintain their play style.

Without a consensus, you either get a watered down version of what you want or you are hoping that the devs ignore the other side and give you what you want.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

If poll results are brought up, they are undermined as not knowing the composition of votes. So the question is how exactly can it be shown, without being undermined, that casuals wouldn't be against lateral sprint. Reddit is a mix of casuals, comp, and sim. OS is a mix between comp and sim, ESFL discord/chat is mostly comp. Youtube comments probably have the most casuals. But how can it be established that an individual commenter is casual, comp, or sim?

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

If poll results are brought up, they are undermined as not knowing the composition of votes. So the question is how exactly can it be shown, without being undermined, that casuals wouldn't be against lateral sprint. Reddit is a mix of casuals, comp, and sim. OS is a mix between comp and sim, ESFL discord/chat is mostly comp. Youtube comments probably have the most casuals. But how can it be established that an individual commenter is casual, comp, or sim?

The undermining goes both ways though. I mention MMAGame's poll for equalized stats in ranked and the response is "those fans are casual", "they would agree with anything he posts" and "i would beat most of those guys so they dont really want that".

Its difficult to determine what type of gamers a person is unless they identify themselves. Assumptions based on information can be made though. OS really consists of less than 50 regular posters. Most (if not all) are sim focused players. Some are focused only offline. Some are a mix. Some are online only. All are pretty much concerned with having a realistic sim game.

On the other hand, if I go to Reddit and see someone posting about running, its safe to assume they are a online comp player. Offline players dont care about running because the AI doesnt really do that. I've only heard the term "running" used by online comp players.

Given that its impossible to know what type of player everyone is, you likely would argue that the poll numbers should be what governs a decision. Its proof, right? Thats fine as long as it works both ways.

Like I said, the devs could ignore the running complaints and say "that Reddit thread shows that 50 plus people want circling", lets add it. The flip side is they say "Game's poll has 1100 people (mix of casual and comps) who want equalized stats in ranked so lets add it because a significant part of the community voted a certain way."

I would like to avoid that. I would like the devs to look at everything and decide whats best for the game. The way this community could help is by posting alot of evidence that shows that more than just OS wants something.

A reddit post like 1212 linked helps because of the poll but the actual comments hurt his argument too. So more is needed.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

How about this, post a pill on here and see what the numbers are, I'm sure it will be lower that what the forum used to get. Try the discords and the reddit and see what you get, we will backs yous up with arguments against movement changes.