Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Problem with that is it might be too easy to pressure fighters with lower footwork and bad grappling into a clinch situation.

Isnt that what we want?

If you have poor footwork and clinch skills you’ll likely end up pressured in the clinch.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Great ideas from Zhunter. The heart rate idea is brilliant! Super interesting stuff.




"Sticky cage" is just an absolutely totally insane idea though. That is just terrible. Keep weird *** pure video game mechanics far far farrrrr away.

Nothing about the cage should be "sticky".

Also worth noting, you often see guys back into the cage intentionally, with their back flexed, or their butt kinda out, and sort of bounce off the cage to keep moving. Sort of as a range/location finder. Happens pretty commonly.

Nothing about the cage should be "sticky".

I don't think its insanely unrealistic, but it sounds that way when you preface the idea by saying "sticky cage"


Cage fences themselves are very rough and jagged, even with the rubber/plastic coating over the metal, the ****. They have to be this way so that it's spectator friendly. When actually being up against the fence, moving your back at all is difficult, unless you want your back grated like cheese.


Partly for this reason, like you mentioned fighters posture their back, arch their butt out, ready to launch off the cage after making their opponent whiff, usually done simultaneously with some head movement. They hardly ever slide their backs across the cage.



I'd like to see this be the primary way of getting off the cage. Currently the best way to get off the cage is just press diagonal(forward and to the side) on the L-stick, eat a few punches to the block and bam! You're back is off the cage!



In short pressuring someone near the cage isn't super difficult, it's keeping their back actually on the cage, even in a corner for longer than half a second is next to impossible.


I'd also like to see a bounce off the cage similar to what we saw in the Silva, IA fight, when Silva threw the flying knee and IA sprung off the cage to escape.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I don't think its insanely unrealistic, but it sounds that way when you preface the idea by saying "sticky cage"


Cage fences themselves are very rough and jagged, even with the rubber/plastic coating over the metal, the ****. They have to be this way so that it's spectator friendly. When actually being up against the fence, moving your back at all is difficult, unless you want your back grated like cheese.


Partly for this reason, like you mentioned fighters posture their back, arch their butt out, ready to launch off the cage after making their opponent whiff, usually done simultaneously with some head movement. They hardly ever slide their backs across the cage.



I'd like to see this be the primary way of getting off the cage. Currently the best way to get off the cage is just press diagonal(forward and to the side) on the L-stick, eat a few punches to the block and bam! You're back is off the cage!



In short pressuring someone near the cage isn't super difficult, it's keeping their back actually on the cage, even in a corner for longer than half a second is next to impossible.


I'd also like to see a bounce off the cage similar to what we saw in the Silva, IA fight, when Silva threw the flying knee and IA sprung off the cage to escape.

The lunging punch can keepnsomeone in stun frames. Wouldn’t a shuffle step benefit the pressure fighter too?

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

The lunging punch can keepnsomeone in stun frames. Wouldn’t a shuffle step benefit the pressure fighter too?

Shuffle step could benefit everyone if the game had angles that effected blocking ability. But it doesn't.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Shuffle step could benefit everyone if the game had angles that effected blocking ability. But it doesn't.

Well the feature you listed about soft strikes would be a great way to play with someone’s block timing would it not? And please watch the link I posted

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

You had me at Diaz bros. For all that’s holy please put that in please. The only thing that needs to be done is not allowing max Holloway output from Conor McGregor if that makes sense. People should gas from inaccuracy. Also people should no that fight the shuffle step as it would benefit both sides. Inside and outside fighters. I’ve begged for the soft punch modifier forever and ever and ever. OLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

This I disagree with and I'll explain why from a realism perspective and a balance perspective.



Nobody gasses more from hitting the arms than hitting the face. Hitting an object to keep you from whiffing, whether it be the head, body or the arms has the same end result.


From a balance perspective. Blocking is the most basic input and form of defense possible. It's very strong and requires zero risk and minimal effort on reads. In short, forcing inaccuracy by blocking is a pretty easy task.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Sorry, can someone re-post Zombie's suggestions so I don't have to go through 30 pages to find them? Thanks! Also, @ZHunter, according to your idea, what happens to the heart rate when you take damage? I'm also thinking about the effect adrenaline has on fighters in tough moments, but as an advocate of realism, I think we have to be really careful with that, lest we end up with another, new kind of rock fests in fights. Anyway, I like your suggestion and it's great to see a gamechanger make suggestions that are in favour of realism.

• Decrease the recovery frames on lunges (let fighters recover faster so they can change walking directions faster)
• Increase movement speed for fighters who are not guarding
• Slow movement speed for fighters who are guarding
• Fix "blowback" / "forcefield" / "magic angle" bugs that cause space to be created out of thin air when using fwd strikes vs a backward moving opponent
• Disable haptic feedback in ranked modes (this is intended for disabled persons and abused in a competitive setting to block all strikes before they can be seen)
• Enable slips immediately after feinting (this is impossible now) to draw out planted strikes & the slip straight and counter them better
• Optionally, require moving fighters to stop moving manually (let go of the stick) to check leg kicks (the game automatically stops you right now) - I feel this might make leg kicks more viable against people hellbent on running

As you guys can see here, I didn't actually suggest a sticky cage. I said that cutting off the cage in FNC was easier due to several factors: faster lunges with shorter recovery, a bigger movement speed increase for not blocking, and sticky cage corners (which were later patched in).

I realize an octagon has far more corners than a ring, so I'm not necessarily suggesting the cage should be sticky. I want other solutions looked at first. But I agree with ZHunter about what the issue is, where you can't actually contain someone in a given spot for more than half a second. The fighters do glide along the fence a little too smoothly in my opinion. It's frictionless. It has the in-game feel of a water slide from a theme park. When in reality you should feel a little more weight and resistance. I'd love if the cage itself interacted more with locomotion. Being able to quickly fall into it (maybe to escape a rock) and then bounce off would be cool

But anyway, listed above are the suggestions I actually made.

And just to piggyback on Zack's point, I want the game to be realistic also. There is a false narrative that gets created that the GC'ers who hang out in competitive modes just want an arcade brawl-fest and that couldn't be farther from the truth. If you notice, UFC1 was an arcade brawl-fest (go back and watch videos of it). And the game has slowly become more and more measured with each iteration. That is not by accident. Look at the vulnerability system we have now. That was largely driven by discussions we had with the devs where we relayed that we were not happy with single strikes doing too little damage and the reliance on the combo multiplier. Notice that the arcadey parries that sucked people into a vortex are gone. Notice that spinning strikes and other high commitment attacks incur a MUCH larger stamina penalty if they whiff.

You have to look at the franchise direction in totality, noting that there was no GC program in UFC1 and also noting that GC'ers do not get everything we ask for.

While it is true that some of us have a different conception of balance vs realism, it is absolutely not true that we want a 100MPH nonstop-action fighting game. Those already exist. If I wanted that I'd just go play MK and be done with the UFC games.

It is also discouraging sometimes to come here and see this narrative after all I've done to get mindless aggression beaten back. I was one of the loudest proponents of nerfing the 50/50 bobblehead spam when it was in its heyday and IronSharif and MentalStability were running over people because they could force guessing games. Those guys don't even play the game anymore. Their idiotic tactics got nerfed so hard they quit the game.

For ages, I said that stamina regen between rounds was too high. Guess what, GPD patched it so that regen is better reflected by output in the previous round.

I thought it was idiotic that fighters who were NOT known for their kicks (like Nick Diaz) could still be aggressive and attack the body with kicks. GPD agreed. He made kicks with lower move levels easier to catch (my suggestion btw) and added a stamina drain for using the trip off the catch.

ZHunter made several suggestions that allowed for extended groundfighting to better sap stamina and grind the opponent down.

The fact that we suggest some ways to better enable cage-cutting and then get straw-manned as players who just want idiotic non-stop action with limitless stamina truly baffles me.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well the feature you listed about soft strikes would be a great way to play with someone’s block timing would it not? And please watch the link I posted

I myself think that would be a nightmare idea in terms of balance if implemented as a singular thing. And for someone who dislikes the amount of volume currently thrown, I have a feeling you would only like that idea if other changes were made to balance it out. Even though it is realistic.


Which means you would agree that realism would take a backseat to balance if we are talking about a soft strike modifier as an individual addition. I wouldn't blame you either, I feel the same way.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I myself think that would be a nightmare idea in terms of balance if implemented as a singular thing. And for someone who dislikes the amount of volume currently thrown, I have a feeling you would only like that idea if other changes were made to balance it out. Even though it is realistic.


Which means you would agree that realism would take a backseat to balance if we are talking about a soft strike modifier as an individual addition. I wouldn't blame you either, I feel the same way.

^^^this is how you present a solid argument. Anyway I just want both those features that way punching on a half beat matters and also catching someone on a t angle. We should have three stances. Neutral orthodox and southpaw. Neutral stance is the most common stance to strike from when planting.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

• Decrease the recovery frames on lunges (let fighters recover faster so they can change walking directions faster)
• Increase movement speed for fighters who are not guarding
• Slow movement speed for fighters who are guarding
• Fix "blowback" / "forcefield" / "magic angle" bugs that cause space to be created out of thin air when using fwd strikes vs a backward moving opponent
• Disable haptic feedback in ranked modes (this is intended for disabled persons and abused in a competitive setting to block all strikes before they can be seen)
• Enable slips immediately after feinting (this is impossible now) to draw out planted strikes & the slip straight and counter them better
• Optionally, require moving fighters to stop moving manually (let go of the stick) to check leg kicks (the game automatically stops you right now) - I feel this might make leg kicks more viable against people hellbent on running

As you guys can see here, I didn't actually suggest a sticky cage. I said that cutting off the cage in FNC was easier due to several factors: faster lunges with shorter recovery, a bigger movement speed increase for not blocking, and sticky cage corners (which were later patched in).

I realize an octagon has far more corners than a ring, so I'm not necessarily suggesting the cage should be sticky. I want other solutions looked at first. But I agree with ZHunter about what the issue is, where you can't actually contain someone in a given spot for more than half a second. The fighters do glide along the fence a little too smoothly in my opinion. It's frictionless. It has the in-game feel of a water slide from a theme park. When in reality you should feel a little more weight and resistance. I'd love if the cage itself interacted more with locomotion. Being able to quickly fall into it (maybe to escape a rock) and then bounce off would be cool

But anyway, listed above are the suggestions I actually made.

And just to piggyback on Zack's point, I want the game to be realistic also. There is a false narrative that gets created that the GC'ers who hang out in competitive modes just want an arcade brawl-fest and that couldn't be farther from the truth. If you notice, UFC1 was an arcade brawl-fest (go back and watch videos of it). And the game has slowly become more and more measured with each iteration. That is not by accident. Look at the vulnerability system we have now. That was largely driven by discussions we had with the devs where we relayed that we were not happy with single strikes doing too little damage and the reliance on the combo multiplier. Notice that the arcadey parries that sucked people into a vortex are gone. Notice that spinning strikes and other high commitment attacks incur a MUCH larger stamina penalty if they whiff.

You have to look at the franchise direction in totality, noting that there was no GC program in UFC1 and also noting that GC'ers do not get everything we ask for.

While it is true that some of us have a different conception of balance vs realism, it is absolutely not true that we want a 100MPH nonstop-action fighting game. Those already exist. If I wanted that I'd just go play MK and be done with the UFC games.

It is also discouraging sometimes to come here and see this narrative after all I've done to get mindless aggression beaten back. I was one of the loudest proponents of nerfing the 50/50 bobblehead spam when it was in its heyday and IronSharif and MentalStability were running over people because they could force guessing games. Those guys don't even play the game anymore. Their idiotic tactics got nerfed so hard they quit the game.

For ages, I said that stamina regen between rounds was too high. Guess what, GPD patched it so that regen is better reflected by output in the previous round.

I thought it was idiotic that fighters who were NOT known for their kicks (like Nick Diaz) could still be aggressive and attack the body with kicks. GPD agreed. He made kicks with lower move levels easier to catch (my suggestion btw) and added a stamina drain for using the trip off the catch.

ZHunter made several suggestions that allowed for extended groundfighting to better sap stamina and grind the opponent down.

The fact that we suggest some ways to better enable cage-cutting and then get straw-manned as players who just want idiotic non-stop action with limitless stamina truly baffles me.

I dont think thats the argument most people here are making though (even though a few are with the Tekken/Mortal Kombat references). Preferring a action meta doesnt mean that you want a "100MPH nonstop-action fighting game". It just means that you prefer a game that is more action heavy than say the average OSer. I prefer a slower pace...that doesnt mean that I want every fight to be a Machida fight.

Thats why I've been encouraging people to find a middle ground.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

@ZombieRommel

Thanks for posting your ideas again! I think all of them make sense and wouldn't mind them being implemented. I'm just not sure about the last one, how it would actually play out. On that note, I feel checking leg kicks from certain fighters shouldn't be a sustainable option whatsoever (Barboza, Gaethje, I'd include Aldo but he doesn't kick anymore) but obviously other things would probably have to change for that to happen. Just a thought.

Anyway, after your suggestion to facilitate kick-catching depending on kick levels, the next step is implementing what Martial Mind suggested - namely: ugly, okay and great animations. This is the natural progression of that idea of yours and it's an absolute must.

[NEWSS]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

With regards to pressure vs outside fighting argument, this is an example of "division 4 pressure".
Although I got better at using defensive tools by watching high level players, I couldn't avoid most of the fight taking place chest to chest (I'm Rose)

https://youtu.be/q_yATRHHx1o

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

• Decrease the recovery frames on lunges (let fighters recover faster so they can change walking directions faster)
• Increase movement speed for fighters who are not guarding
• Slow movement speed for fighters who are guarding
• Fix "blowback" / "forcefield" / "magic angle" bugs that cause space to be created out of thin air when using fwd strikes vs a backward moving opponent
• Disable haptic feedback in ranked modes (this is intended for disabled persons and abused in a competitive setting to block all strikes before they can be seen)
• Enable slips immediately after feinting (this is impossible now) to draw out planted strikes & the slip straight and counter them better
• Optionally, require moving fighters to stop moving manually (let go of the stick) to check leg kicks (the game automatically stops you right now) - I feel this might make leg kicks more viable against people hellbent on running

As you guys can see here, I didn't actually suggest a sticky cage. I said that cutting off the cage in FNC was easier due to several factors: faster lunges with shorter recovery, a bigger movement speed increase for not blocking, and sticky cage corners (which were later patched in).

I realize an octagon has far more corners than a ring, so I'm not necessarily suggesting the cage should be sticky. I want other solutions looked at first. But I agree with ZHunter about what the issue is, where you can't actually contain someone in a given spot for more than half a second. The fighters do glide along the fence a little too smoothly in my opinion. It's frictionless. It has the in-game feel of a water slide from a theme park. When in reality you should feel a little more weight and resistance. I'd love if the cage itself interacted more with locomotion. Being able to quickly fall into it (maybe to escape a rock) and then bounce off would be cool

But anyway, listed above are the suggestions I actually made.

And just to piggyback on Zack's point, I want the game to be realistic also. There is a false narrative that gets created that the GC'ers who hang out in competitive modes just want an arcade brawl-fest and that couldn't be farther from the truth. If you notice, UFC1 was an arcade brawl-fest (go back and watch videos of it). And the game has slowly become more and more measured with each iteration. That is not by accident. Look at the vulnerability system we have now. That was largely driven by discussions we had with the devs where we relayed that we were not happy with single strikes doing too little damage and the reliance on the combo multiplier. Notice that the arcadey parries that sucked people into a vortex are gone. Notice that spinning strikes and other high commitment attacks incur a MUCH larger stamina penalty if they whiff.

You have to look at the franchise direction in totality, noting that there was no GC program in UFC1 and also noting that GC'ers do not get everything we ask for.

While it is true that some of us have a different conception of balance vs realism, it is absolutely not true that we want a 100MPH nonstop-action fighting game. Those already exist. If I wanted that I'd just go play MK and be done with the UFC games.

It is also discouraging sometimes to come here and see this narrative after all I've done to get mindless aggression beaten back. I was one of the loudest proponents of nerfing the 50/50 bobblehead spam when it was in its heyday and IronSharif and MentalStability were running over people because they could force guessing games. Those guys don't even play the game anymore. Their idiotic tactics got nerfed so hard they quit the game.

For ages, I said that stamina regen between rounds was too high. Guess what, GPD patched it so that regen is better reflected by output in the previous round.

I thought it was idiotic that fighters who were NOT known for their kicks (like Nick Diaz) could still be aggressive and attack the body with kicks. GPD agreed. He made kicks with lower move levels easier to catch (my suggestion btw) and added a stamina drain for using the trip off the catch.

ZHunter made several suggestions that allowed for extended groundfighting to better sap stamina and grind the opponent down.

The fact that we suggest some ways to better enable cage-cutting and then get straw-manned as players who just want idiotic non-stop action with limitless stamina truly baffles me.

I will definitely say you both have been very reasonable in terms of balancing the sides in this topic. But a lot of the strawmen come from previous discussions. Especially the big topic about outside fighting

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...ered-op-2.html

There are quite a few posts from the both of you advocating for the unrealistic fast pace.

I’m not saying you’re doing it now but I can say that my perception of y’all came from topics like that.

Not looking to derail this thread, just wanted to point out that your reputations arent completely unfounded.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I dont think thats the argument most people here are making though (even though a few are with the Tekken/Mortal Kombat references). Preferring a action meta doesnt mean that you want a "100MPH nonstop-action fighting game". It just means that you prefer a game that is more action heavy than say the average OSer. I prefer a slower pace...that doesnt mean that I want every fight to be a Machida fight.

Thats why I've been encouraging people to find a middle ground.

We should be able to impose our style, in ea ufc, aggressive player can dictate the pace for at least 3 rounds., the combos input extra speed, the stamina tolerance on blocked strikes specially jab make the defensive/outside player have to run or brawl, if you run u have to sway/lunge for your life and block and pick a feel shots just to survive, if u brawl, well, u are doing their game...

Ps. I know guys can use knees, but for me, when u do it, u are diving on deeeep black side of the force, as knees and spinning elbows are the cheesiest strikes in the game

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I will definitely say you both have been very reasonable in terms of balancing the sides in this topic. But a lot of the strawmen come from previous discussions. Especially the big topic about outside fighting

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...ered-op-2.html

There are quite a few posts from the both of you advocating for the unrealistic fast pace.

I’m not saying you’re doing it now but I can say that my perception of y’all came from topics like that.

Not looking to derail this thread, just wanted to point out that your reputations arent completely unfounded.

Just looked back at a few posts I had in that thread. I still support those points. Does anyone want a game where Maia will be on your back for 5 minutes at a time? Lewis Ngannou esque matches? Houston Alexander vs Kimbo type matches?

Like I said, I can understand frustration within a debate, but I don't think anything said is drastic enough to assume any GCers want a Mortal Kombat UFC game.