Transition based submissions

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

Yeah man, I think it would be tragic if we went from one system so focused on hand/eye & coordination to another that was just based on who could button mashing the fastest lol. I may even casually call it “button mashing” myself but it’s definitely based more on timing and pace. It worked great in EA MMA imo and you could REALLY feel the difference when using submission artists like Souza and Shinya.

Their ratings system was JUST deep enough too. They had separate ratings for leg, arm and neck subs as well, which really helped make fighters feel unique. I’d usually make a wrestler with great neck subs but average limp subs. It wasn’t the best game but they did certain aspects of the sport very well.

EA MMA turned out to be one of my favorite MMA games of the prior Gen systems. It was right up there with Undisputed 3 for me. And a lot of it was due to the Sub System & overall grappling. Definitely not perfect, but its the best sub system I've seen yet.

I thought for sure that EA would take that system and build on it for the UFC series when they got the contract to make the UFC games.

I'm sure a Transition based system has been discussed in their Developer meetings. I'm curious what seems to be holding it back from being implemented. I can't imagine the idea is being shot down as a bad idea. I would bet it has to do with priority and allocating resources. I'm sure the Striking and general Grappling improvements took priority over the sub system in the past games, but we're getting to a point now where a transition sub system can be worked on.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I actually have a general Submission Question. Why is it that submissions require a specific direction to be input in order to apply?

EDIT: I can see why SOME submissions would require a specific direction, like going for an Arm Triangle from the left side, naturally you would have to hold "right" into the defending player.

but For example:
If I'm in full Mount and want to apply an Arm Bar, when I hold L2, it only gives me the option to press Right on the right stick. WHY? I should be able to press left or right on the stick, and based on the direction, it determines what arm I attack.

Same with Triangles, why is a Triangle from guard only 1 direction?

And I could be wrong here, but I feel like the direction of the sub changes, and I can't ever seem to know what direction I need to move the right stick without relying on the HUD. I should be able to comfortable know how to apply a sub without any HUD

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: Transition based submissions

I actually have a general Submission Question. Why is it that submissions require a specific direction to be input in order to apply?



EDIT: I can see why SOME submissions would require a specific direction, like going for an Arm Triangle from the left side, naturally you would have to hold "right" into the defending player.



but For example:

If I'm in full Mount and want to apply an Arm Bar, when I hold L2, it only gives me the option to press Right on the right stick. WHY? I should be able to press left or right on the stick, and based on the direction, it determines what arm I attack.



Same with Triangles, why is a Triangle from guard only 1 direction?



And I could be wrong here, but I feel like the direction of the sub changes, and I can't ever seem to know what direction I need to move the right stick without relying on the HUD. I should be able to comfortable know how to apply a sub without any HUD

Probably all down to the preferred submission side of the mocap performer. They could swap sides, but it’s more than just that. The camera work is all specific to each stage. Also would imagine it comes down to budget. Do they at least cover and add as many of the subs, or do they go full blown left and right side attacks for all the subs? You see what we have.


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[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I actually have a general Submission Question. Why is it that submissions require a specific direction to be input in order to apply?

EDIT: I can see why SOME submissions would require a specific direction, like going for an Arm Triangle from the left side, naturally you would have to hold "right" into the defending player.

but For example:
If I'm in full Mount and want to apply an Arm Bar, when I hold L2, it only gives me the option to press Right on the right stick. WHY? I should be able to press left or right on the stick, and based on the direction, it determines what arm I attack.

Same with Triangles, why is a Triangle from guard only 1 direction?

And I could be wrong here, but I feel like the direction of the sub changes, and I can't ever seem to know what direction I need to move the right stick without relying on the HUD. I should be able to comfortable know how to apply a sub without any HUD

This is also another case for why Transition-based submissions is the best option here. It will naturally lead the player to know what direction you need to transition in order to progress the submission.

Back to the Arm Bar from Guard example:
Stage 1 is a Minor transition to gain wrist control. You Hold L2 and transition to Left or Right, depending on what arm you want to attack. Stage 2 is another L2 minor transition to swing the hips and bring the legs over. Well, the direction you transition simply follows the arm you gained wrist control over. Simple.

A Guillotine Choke from Bottom Guard:
-L2 Plus a Minor transition "Up" on the right stick - "Up" correlates with the direction of the attack, in this case the neck. Maybe this transition brings the hands under the neck, a 2nd Minor Transition "Up" brings the legs into a full guard animation for leverage and the Rhythmic mash begins to simulate the squeeze.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

Probably all down to the preferred submission side of the mocap performer. They could swap sides, but it’s more than just that. The camera work is all specific to each stage. Also would imagine it comes down to budget. Do they at least cover and add as many of the subs, or do they go full blown left and right side attacks for all the subs? You see what we have.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Ahh OK, that makes sense. If it's a limitation in Mo-Cap then I can see why. It's just a shame, I don't know how anyone can possibly feel confident without HUD when trying to know what direction is needed to apply a sub.

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: Transition based submissions

Ahh OK, that makes sense. If it's a limitation in Mo-Cap then I can see why. It's just a shame, I don't know how anyone can possibly feel confident without HUD when trying to know what direction is needed to apply a sub.

TBH though I’m not 100% on this, but linear body positions such as guard/stacked, back control, Mount, and sprawl all appear to have a single preferred side of attack. Another theory to consider is just a consistent attack animation for the player to recognize. In UFC 3 it is easy to initiate a submission. Irl, good luck even attempting a submission on some of these guys. The early submission defense or attempts get lumped in with the transition system. Irl position is given and gained far more frequent than subs are attempted. In the game, the submission attempt becomes the minority transition from the common positions. It can be enough to freeze your defensive input and thus you’re in the sub mini game. Guard for example, the feet on hips start animation is the same, but the kimura is different thus slower. If submissions are more powerful transitions than the position changes, it’s F’d up.


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[ZHunter1990]

Re: Transition based submissions

I dont know if they have addressed it but last time I brought it up few GCs said they have brought it up to the devs.

I think it's really important like you do. An immersive sub game has been lacking in all MMA games I know of. EA has an opportunity here to do something new and fun.

These are the official forums as far as I know but the devs are active on reddit and Twitter as well. Twitter is probably the best place to reach GPD.

TBS concept has been around since before EA UFC1 and Ive been bugging for them since. The devs are fully aware of the concept, but it would require a rather large budget, requiring a ton of new animations in evwry TBS system that has been presented so far. Not saying it wont ever happen though.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

TBS concept has been around since before EA UFC1 and Ive been bugging for them since. The devs are fully aware of the concept, but it would require a rather large budget, requiring a ton of new animations in evwry TBS system that has been presented so far. Not saying it wont ever happen though.

I see that's interesting. Thanks for the reply.

So it's the large budget required holding us back. I hope some simpler fixes are considered in the meantime that allow for a more immersive sub gameplay without the giant overlay distracting from the fight.

Maybe switching the button mashing to default with a stamina tie in would be the best alternative before going full TBS with a larger budget.

The idea I presented could be lighter on the budget as the only new animation required would be the striking in and out of subs.

The current animations would be in a state of tug of war between the two goals of advancing or escaping the sub. Finally the grip/sub meter fits in with the other meters and streamlines the game. Even without striking within subs or mobility to fill or empty the grip meter the transitions mechanics I laid out earlier would be enough for an more immersive sub game.

tl;dr? Many people are interested in a immersive sub game that can played without a distracting HUD.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

Yea even if they just slapped on the original ea mma joint lock system of button mash while managing stamina would be an improvement.

And if you watch the fighters behind the current graphic overlay, they are progressing through visible stages of each submission. So even the animations they already have could show who is winning/losing the battle.

But the ultimate solution has been, and will always be, a transition based system.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Transition based submissions

Just gonna leave these clips here for anyone that hasn’t seen them or played EA MMA. Gawd this was a nearly perfect sub system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxnlUac3l4Y&feature=share

No timed sub gates!

https://youtu.be/aQmI5PNGVgs

The only thing I’d might add are strikes in sub position to disrupt the opponent’s sub system mechanic. It should likely risk you losing more stamina but rattle the opponents sub gauge by throwing it off, higher ranked sub fighters won’t be as rattled by it maybe but depending on the position it could also still cause small amounts of accumulative damages.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

Just gonna leave these clips here for anyone that hasn’t seen them or played EA MMA. Gawd this was a nearly perfect sub system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxnlUac3l4Y&feature=share

No timed sub gates!

https://youtu.be/aQmI5PNGVgs

The only thing I’d might add are strikes in sub position to disrupt the opponent’s sub system mechanic. It should likely risk you losing more stamina but rattle the opponents sub gauge by throwing it off, higher ranked sub fighters won’t be as rattled by it maybe but depending on the position it could also still cause small amounts of accumulative damages.

Man, watching that makes me sad haha. I get almost no satisfaction out of subbing people in UFC 3. We need something more like this, at the minimum. It’s a huge part of MMA and just hasn’t been given the proper attention and care

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Transitions on the RS like now would open up button mashing for strikes within subs. That has never been done before in a major MMA game yet. EA already proved they can produce a good sub game with EA MMA. With more fun grappling UFC 4 has the potential to be the best MMA game ever.

This has been in demand for years with the only thing holding it back is a large budget required. We have laid out ways to do TBS with the animations we already have. Maybe there is a chance for UFC 4 to have TBS at least in some capacity.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

Transitions on the RS like now would open up button mashing for strikes within subs. That has never been done before in a major MMA game yet. EA already proved they can produce a good sub game with EA MMA. With more fun grappling UFC 4 has the potential to be the best MMA game ever.

This has been in demand for years with the only thing holding it back is a large budget required. We have laid out ways to do TBS with the animations we already have. Maybe there is a chance for UFC 4 to have TBS at least in some capacity.

I’ll be very happy if they come out with something that even heads in the direction of transition based submissions. Just start down that path and we’ll be better off for it.

[MacGowan]

Re: Transition based submissions

Honestly, I'm just hoping they didn't remove simple submission option or the custom sliders. I have no faith that they've changed the submission mechanics. Honestly, what indications have we seen of that? The leaked surveys were talking about skins, and the patches for UFC 3 did nothing for submissions but fine-tuning the gate speed.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Honestly, I'm just hoping they didn't remove simple submission option or the custom sliders. I have no faith that they've changed the submission mechanics. Honestly, what indications have we seen of that? The leaked surveys were talking about skins, and the patches for UFC 3 did nothing for submissions but fine-tuning the gate speed.

I have faith they updated the subs if even a little bit. Striking was the focus in UFC 3, grappling should be the focus for UFC 4... I'm pretty sure it is already.

The clinch and sub game are the least developed aspects. I'm sure the devs are aware of this and will act accordingly.

The ground game is alright but would be better with mobility and reworked denials as blocking transitions by adjusting the recovery frames.

I think UFC 4 will be the best MMA ever if they update grappling. The striking is already the best we've seen.