Transition based submissions

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

if not for UFC 4, I can only hope this is a focal point for ufc 5. With the next gen systems coming, it should be easier to implement this I’d imagine.

A TBS system fundamentally changes the way the entire grappling system operates.

One of the advantages I can also imagine here, it would differentiate the better submission artists more.

Let’s say an ArmBar is a Level 1 sub that requires the least amount of transitions to get to an end stage. High level sub guys like Maia or Jacare would have the ability to accomplish in even less transitions. Maybe just a major transition that others don’t have. Making them more dangerous to mess with on the ground.

What this would also allow is the ability to slow play a submission if you wanted to. Even though a guy like Jacare could get to the end in less moves, it’s not the ONLY way he attempts an armbar.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I really like the idea that attempting a sub would keep you in the overall grappling system instead of starting a mini game.

You can use the threat of a sub to accomplish other things. It’s no longer linear. Right now you only attempt a sub to go for the finish.

With this system you can grab a limb for stage 1 and then instead of moving to stage 2, instead you pass to a new position.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

I think there can still be a form of TBS in UFC 4. But I am certain we will see it eventually.

Having the animation in a state of tug of war while both sides try to advance or escape the submission, allows for TBS in UFC 4 as it uses the current animations. For example, you have back control and you transition into a RNC. Then the sub/grip meter appears and depending on who gets performs transitions they win the exchange. Minor transitions via the RS inch you closer while taking a big chance with major transitions are risky but you get closer to advancing or escaping the sub based on your stamina management and transition timing.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I think there can still be a form of TBS in UFC 4. But I am certain we will see it eventually.

Having the animation in a state of tug of war while both sides try to advance or escape the submission, allows for TBS in UFC 4 as it uses the current animations. For example, you have back control and you transition into a RNC. Then the sub/grip meter appears and depending on who gets performs transitions they win the exchange. Minor transitions via the RS inch you closer while taking a big chance with major transitions are risky but you get closer to advancing or escaping the sub based on your stamina management and transition timing.

John I’m curious about how your system can apply with the current animations from UFC 3. How would the defense recognize the next stage of the submission? Is it simply the animation starting for the next position? Would that be adequate for the defender to be able to recognize and react?

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

John I’m curious about how your system can apply with the current animations from UFC 3. How would the defense recognize the next stage of the submission? Is it simply the animation starting for the next position? Would that be adequate for the defender to be able to recognize and react?

You would know where you are in the sub by two things- the grip meter and the animation itself. It would be more than adequate for the defender or subber to recognize and react because they would know by seeing where they are in the sub.

Since it’s the same old animation people who have played UFC 3 would recognize the stages and transitions accordingly. For new people it wouldn’t be so difficult to figure out. It be like recognizing strikes landed where the animation itself tells you which stage you are in the sub.

For example a TBS RNC would look like this: The RNC initiates from back control and the tug of war animation starts. The grip meter will also tell you where you are on the sub- fill the sub meter to advance a sub and deplete to escape a sub. IF you play without a HUD you can gauge the same by recognizing the stage of the submission.

The animations would be the same as now only difference is transitions move you along the sub, advancing or escaping the sub based on successful transitions. Successful transitions move you along the stages of the sub and on the grip meter. That’s how they would know which stage they are in.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

The only thing that worries me about using the current animations for a TBS is that we would need clear “tells” in order to give the defender an opportunity to deny the next stage. I’m not sure that happens with the current animations.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

The only thing that worries me about using the current animations for a TBS is that we would need clear “tells” in order to give the defender an opportunity to deny the next stage. I’m not sure that happens with the current animations.

The tells would be the transitions themselves. As you perform a transition you transition to the next/previous stage of the submission depending on whether you are trying to advance or escape the sub. So basically a minor transition moves you one stage at a time while major moves two.

For example the attacker is trying to advance a stage, the defender would see the sub animation move slightly with each attempted transition. The defender blocks/denies the transition by matching the direction of the minor transition few times/duration which stalls the animation. The attacker would win the exchange and advance by shining the RS and holding a direction uncontested for a few seconds. A major transition is a swoop. You advance by swooping longer than the defender and vice versa. Managing stamina becomes crucial as major transitions use a lot of stamina and if you gas yourself trying to advance or escape- transitions slow down.

All the while you can use TBS for position by cancelling the sub and strike to advance or escape the sub.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

I doubt we will get TBS for UFC 4. The least I can hope for is a rumble during the mini game for HUDless gameplay. I want to see TBS for UFC 5 tho.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

TBS can happen with the current animations in another way. It can be like now and move in steps and each step/gate is a transition, you may have multiple transitions available at each step depending on different varieties of positions like RNC with hooks or body triangle etc. So you block/deny the transition to block progress or do your own transitions to escape or submit.

So a 5 gate submission would have 5 transitions, 2 for two gate etc. Plus since transitions cost stamina we would have stamina tied submission which I don’t think even UD3 had.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Another plus point for changing the gates into positions would be the timed nature of subs currently. You can't really be stuck in a sub for a long time like you can irl. If the gates became positions this problem is alleviated.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Nooooo please no more fill in transitions. Dont get me wrong your idea is good, but i think i will throw up if i see ufc 4 has fill in transitions. Fill in transitions feel like a mini game in themeselvs like the sumbissions right now.

I thought of a way to have a better transition mechanic.

What I mean is the stamina actively changing based on our input like the rhythmic button mashing in EA MMA.

So you gain stamina by not moving the stick and moving the stick you drain stamina.. for the mini game.

For a TBS system like I laid out it would enable us to play position over submission and strategize our moves more.

My point was we already have gates. Let each gate be a position. You can strike from that position, rest, or transition (advance/escape). It would also allow for a better sub chaining system too since each gate could have multiple transitions available so we have a more active ground game.

What I worry about is the obstructive HUD that pops up distracting from the gameplay. So instead I suggested making the mini game HUDless by making it the transition mechanic so it can be off center like the transition wheel. Filling a meter isnt as satisfying as landing combos so the gate mechanism could remain as the new transition mechanic.

Each gate stage would have a variety of transition options like body triangle or hooks for RNC or chaining into different subs or positions. So it would feel in line with the rest of the game rather than feeling like subs are disjointed from the rest of the game.

Another issue is the stop and go feel of denials. I suggested lowering the recovery frames so we can chain transitions fluidly, it would feel more like blocking strikes. Faster transitions would also achieve the same effect and we can have scramble like gameplay with the simultaneous transitions.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

I was thinking of a way for the final stage submission to be TBS. Rather than having a mini game at the final stage it should be a position you hold for period of time.

Different subs can have different periods of time you have to hold for. For example a RNC could be 20 secs while a leg lock can be 10.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I was thinking of a way for the final stage submission to be TBS. Rather than having a mini game at the final stage it should be a position you hold for period of time.

Different subs can have different periods of time you have to hold for. For example a RNC could be 20 secs while a leg lock can be 10.

As game coding gets more and more sophisticated and intelligent. I would really love for the “final squeeze stage” to be fluid depending on a variety of under-the-hood factors. This could lengthen or shorten the final stage and even allow for flash submissions.

For example:
If I’m using Jacare and I throw up an armbar on someone with poor sub defense, the final stage should be short in comparison to the same sub against someone with high sub defense stats.

Also, stamina of both fighters and damage should play a role in how quick the final stage moves. Finally, submission-specific stats are needed. Someone like Brian Ortega has a ruthless guillotine, it should be feared in comparison to his armbar. And therefor his guillotine should be a faster final stage.

I personally still prefer the idea of a rhythmic button mash to simulate squeezing for the finish instead of just holding the position. But to each their own.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

The idea of transition based subs, for me at least, is so interesting. I really can’t see how any mini game or the current system can even compare to it.

Imagine being in top side control and having a difficult time getting to mount position. The defender is doing a good job denying your transitions.

Well, with TBS, imagine transitioning to a far-side kimura with the goal of using it to transition to mount.

Now, the bottom defender is distracted by the wrist control you’ve gained in Stage 1 of the transition. Instead of being in a mini game, as the attacker, you can choose a variety of things from here:

1. Cancel the wrist control and let go while staying in side control
2. Transitioning again to Stage 2 of the kimura
3. Transition to Mount from Stage 1 wrist control
4. Transition to North South from Stage 1 wrist control

It’s an added layer of strategy. It opens up more options for the attacker and more things for the defender to think about.

It’s the most realistic system. You’ll see this everyday in jiu jitsu and mma. Guys using sub attempts as another route to transition to where they want to go

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

As game coding gets more and more sophisticated and intelligent. I would really love for the “final squeeze stage” to be fluid depending on a variety of under-the-hood factors. This could lengthen or shorten the final stage and even allow for flash submissions.

For example:
If I’m using Jacare and I throw up an armbar on someone with poor sub defense, the final stage should be short in comparison to the same sub against someone with high sub defense stats.

Also, stamina of both fighters and damage should play a role in how quick the final stage moves. Finally, submission-specific stats are needed. Someone like Brian Ortega has a ruthless guillotine, it should be feared in comparison to his armbar. And therefor his guillotine should be a faster final stage.

I personally still prefer the idea of a rhythmic button mash to simulate squeezing for the finish instead of just holding the position. But to each their own.

The idea of transition based subs, for me at least, is so interesting. I really can’t see how any mini game or the current system can even compare to it.

Imagine being in top side control and having a difficult time getting to mount position. The defender is doing a good job denying your transitions.

Well, with TBS, imagine transitioning to a far-side kimura with the goal of using it to transition to mount.

Now, the bottom defender is distracted by the wrist control you’ve gained in Stage 1 of the transition. Instead of being in a mini game, as the attacker, you can choose a variety of things from here:

1. Cancel the wrist control and let go while staying in side control
2. Transitioning again to Stage 2 of the kimura
3. Transition to Mount from Stage 1 wrist control
4. Transition to North South from Stage 1 wrist control

It’s an added layer of strategy. It opens up more options for the attacker and more things for the defender to think about.

It’s the most realistic system. You’ll see this everyday in jiu jitsu and mma. Guys using sub attempts as another route to transition to where they want to go

The reason I feel the final stage should be holding position rather than another mini game is so that we remain in the transition mechanic through out. Like we’ve said before TBS would be an extension of the current transitions so having the final stage be a position too would keep things streamlined. Also the rhythmic button mashing can happen in any stage as it can be used for striking out of subs. Meanwhile the the final stage of the submission can have a variety of transitions (sub chains or other transitions) available like you said.

I agree with there being more definitive levels to subs and I like the idea of flash subs sorta like the 2 gate arm bar chain from triangles. It could work the same way in TBS but there would be more transitions available at each stage.

Minor or major transitions also come into play. With a major transition you could skip stages at the risk of being denied or escaped. Depending on move levels and stats there could be more or less stages/time needed.

Also you could choose to finish a sub like an arm triangle in side control or remain in half guard unlike now. You could also chain the sub at different stages into other subs like an arm bar or something.

For example an TBS RNC:-

Stage 1 (sink arm): transitions available for attacker- stage 2, stage 3, back sitting, back control/flat (also new position of attacker on his back with back control). Transitions available for defender- escape, roll to one side or another for ankle pressure
Stage 2 (sink both arms): attacker transitions- stage 3, stage 4, back sitting, back control/flat/supine. defender transitions- stage 1, escape, roll to sides
Stage 3- (arms under neck): attacker transitions- stage 4, stage 5, hooks, body triangle, backside control, bulldog choke, armbar. Defender transitions- stage 1, stage 2, escape, roll to sides.
Stage 4 (squeeze): attacker transitions- Stage 5, backside control, hooks, body triangle. defender transitions- stage 2, stage 3.
Stage 5 (final): attacker transitions- hold position. defender transitions- stage 3, stage 4.

Also imagine you’re OSP and you’re stuck in a guillotine. In some stage there can be a transitions available for a Von Flue choke as the defender. In the same way the RNC defender could roll to one side to put pressure on the ankles. So you could defend subs with subs. TBS really would open the sub game up.