Transition based submissions

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

I can get on board with that.

As I read it, 2 things become very obvious to me though:

A TBS system will have to strike some sort of balance between complexity/depth and it’s ability to be picked up and executed by casuals.

If the system is too nuanced and complex it will turn off the casuals who don’t know grappling.

So my suggestions to the devs if they read this:

A TBS can be made easy to pick up and play while also allowing for a “tough to master” element. But it needs to come with a deep tutorial mode. You have to show the steps and animations of every sub so that someone can watch and even practice what a start-to-finish choke looks like example.

It should also have some visual & audio queues in-game about what is happening with options to turn off queues.

Example:
Attacker transitions to stage 1 of armbar from bottom guard.

Animation: Bottom attacker grabs wrist control in a slightly exaggerated way.

Visual queue: The animation itself of course. But also could pop up a small graphic at the top of the screen showing 1 of 3-5 blocks filled in. The total blocks represent the # of stages needed and can vary based on the sub. More complex subs should have more stages ie. Armbar versus gogoplata.

Audio Queue: SMART COMMENTARY. Rogan or Anik should say “He’s got wrist control he’s going for a submission here.” As the stages progress to the end stages commentary can say “he’s nearly got it locked up”

Things like this go a long way to help casuals know what’s happening. And options like this can be turned off.

You could even incorporate “Hints” for defending in offline modes to assist the learning curve.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

the other important piece to this is a consistent, simple button input for advancing or defending each transition.

They’re can’t be an overly complex button layout for this. Left and right transitions with minor and major options for certain subs and up/down transitions for others. Like Armbars are left right, chokes are up down.

Per my example before of the far-side kimura from top side control.

The input should be simple:

Stage 1 animation is grabbing far side wrist control.
-Input is Right Stick toward far side with L2 sub modifier. It’s the same input as transition to Mount but without L2

From stage 2, the input would a second Right Stick toward the far side with L2 modifier. Adding a “swoop” to any of these would be a Major transition that skips a stage.

I’m curious if keeping the transitions the same direction would make them too easy to defend. But this is the balance that needs to be worked out. If I’m defending this kimura, I know that I can just sit on defending 1 direction to prevent being subbed. And while that does allow me to gain an open door to another transition, I wonder about balance.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

True point on the need for tutorials. I believe TBS would be good for both casuals and hardcores since it would have options available for both. Casuals are already familiar with the transition system and denials, TBS wouldn't be too jarring for them.

One more point is the muscle modifier (grappling equivalent of power modifier). All transitions should be able to be modified. It could be the major transition mechanic. So you have the option of moving two transitions at a time at the risk of denial and stamina loss. Right now the muscle modifier only works with get ups, expanding it to all transitions would enable major transitions.

So you could muscle into or out of subs.

[Irish0331]

Re: Transition based submissions

It's gotta be a tough thing to translate grappling/submissions (or even simply just grappling for that matter) into video game language.


I like the idea of transition based submissions...but for every submission I perform IRL that I muscle into success, theres another that I time/finesse into success. So there should be a happy medium between the two.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

It's gotta be a tough thing to translate grappling/submissions (or even simply just grappling for that matter) into video game language.


I like the idea of transition based submissions...but for every submission I perform IRL that I muscle into success, theres another that I time/finesse into success. So there should be a happy medium between the two.

Good point for finesse transitions, I didn't even consider that. Luckily I have an input for that as well- swoops. Swoop at the end of transitions for a finesse transition.

[Irish0331]

Re: Transition based submissions

Good point for finesse transitions, I didn't even consider that. Luckily I have an input for that as well- swoops. Swoop at the end of transitions for a finesse transition.

That seems sensible. Make it a little easier to grab ahold/fall into a "locked in" submission after a scramble vs "transition based" wrist control/arm fighting/set up work after holding a position.

I don't know if I'm saying that right. Say I sprawl a shot and instantly look for a guillotine strangle...maybe it "locks in" (going to the gate meter struggle) quicker than if I sprawl a shot and attempt a sub after sitting there for 3 seconds waiting to see what you're gonna do.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

That seems sensible. Make it a little easier to grab ahold/fall into a "locked in" submission after a scramble vs "transition based" wrist control/arm fighting/set up work after holding a position.

I don't know if I'm saying that right. Say I sprawl a shot and instantly look for a guillotine strangle...maybe it "locks in" (going to the gate meter struggle) quicker than if I sprawl a shot and attempt a sub after sitting there for 3 seconds waiting to see what you're gonna do.

Yeah that's a good idea more deep momentum transitions. There are a few momentum transitions that should be easier to do like from sprawl to backside.

The finesse modifier would be like a speed modifier for grappling. The muscle modifier would be the power modifier. Finesse would give you faster transitions at the cost of stamina.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

There should be grapple advantage during subs. While you are in a sub all the actions including transitions affect GA. You win if you max your GA and maintain/hold it for a variable period of time depending on the subs.

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: Transition based submissions

Whatever system they currently have now, they’ll look to make it more accessible by dumbing it down. You guys sure put a lot of energy into a hypothetical system that probably has no chance of making it in. Keep on dreaming the dream though.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Whatever system they currently have now, they’ll look to make it more accessible by dumbing it down. You guys sure put a lot of energy into a hypothetical system that probably has no chance of making it in. Keep on dreaming the dream though.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

TBS can be more accessible than a mini game. It's an extension of the transition system which people are already familiar with.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

TBS can be more accessible than a mini game. It's an extension of the transition system which people are already familiar with.

It can be if it’s done right.

[DCowboys22]

Re: Transition based submissions

Whatever system they currently have now, they’ll look to make it more accessible by dumbing it down. You guys sure put a lot of energy into a hypothetical system that probably has no chance of making it in. Keep on dreaming the dream though.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I’m pretty confident TBS won’t be in UFC 4. Are you saying you don’t think a version of this will ever be implemented? If so why not?


And isn’t this what the forum is for? Discussion the game, ideas, fixes etc?

Don’t game changers and even devs themselves lurk around here for feedback and ideas? And wouldn’t it be valuable to record the ideas in writing for future game development ideas?

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

It can be if it’s done right.

TBS boils down to submissions being positions instead gates. Each gate is repurposed as a series of transitions we go through until maintaining position for a period of time.

The mini game mechanic can remain as the transition mechanic if the HUD isn’t right in the center of the grappling animation, it should be closer to the HUD above off center like the transition wheel.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

There should be transition and sub attempts stats. Although right now grappling is too stat based, I think adding these two stats would enhance the sub game. A measure of activity so the more transitions and sub attempts the more you score. Being stuck in a sub isnt possible now since subs are timed.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

That Bryce Michell v Charles Rosa fight was a good exhibition for TBS.