So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

[Senator Palmer]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Wow, what a wealth of info PG dropped. Great read, also disheartening at the same time, because I can see not much has changed with the approach to design in next gen. It's still the band aide approach.

On the topic of casual vs hard core gamers and accessability, what I tried to remind EA is they have this magical thing called DIFFICULTY and that the game out of the box should be set to Rookie or Pro difficulty. That core football should always apply, but by playing on an easier difficulties, you simply make the user's players win matchups they might otherwise have no business winning.

Been my feeling for years. Never made sense to be that they tuned the game at All-Pro, especially when their tuning has always seemed to be aimed at making the game more accessible. You want to make the game accessible to casuals who don't want to think, tell them to play on Rookie.

Now, deeper still, it was confirmed that the reason this happens; the reason that there is no tiered palycalling is that the offensive line knows what the defense is supposed to be doing at all times.

The offenseive protection being tied directly to the defensive play call is why we don't have tiered play calling. in order to give us 2k play calling, they would have to overhaul the enitre game and rework blocking at a fundamental level.

IMO, this little factoid right here has never really been discussed enough. Defensive and offensive plays are tied together, always have been. This is why (especially against the CPU) you never see blown protections the way you see in the NFL, or free runners if you're only zone blitzing with 4 unless you button-mash into one of those "tourney style" nanos. And this why we won't see anything truly resembling nex-gen gameplay until they untie offensive/defensive playcalls and get both sides of the ball to function
independently.

Something else that bothers me about ratings is why Donny moore "hates on" line backers. Line backers all have TERRIBLE man and zone coverage ratings.

There are so many things still wrong with the next-gen linebacker play that all I can do is shake my head. Sure there has been improved tuning, but I still see those same ugly legacy issues from LBs not pressing the hole when they see something, to taking on blocks with the wrong shoulder, to those ugly false steps they are programmed to take on counter plays -- which is something it seems EA programmed them to do so that the play could work, because they only started doing that in the past few Maddens. Which goes back to the other point about defensive and offensive plays being tied together.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

There are so many things still wrong with the next-gen linebacker play that all I can do is shake my head. Sure there has been improved tuning, but I still see those same ugly legacy issues from LBs not pressing the hole when they see something, to taking on blocks with the wrong shoulder, to those ugly false steps they are programmed to take on counter plays -- which is something it seems EA programmed them to do so that the play could work, because they only started doing that in the past few Maddens. Which goes back to the other point about defensive and offensive plays being tied together.

This right here is what gets to me. Everything in madden is scripted. They make guys do these ridiculous things in order to force the outcome that's been decided. It's horrendous. Just the other day, I was playing a league game, and Prince Amukumara, my best corner, with 93 mcv, 92 zcv, 93 speed, and 87 awr is matched up on Martellus Bennett. Yes... Martellus Bennett. What happens on the play? Bennett runs a simple streak. Not double move, nothing. Just a go route. He caught the ball wide open for a 55 yard TD after he cleared about 15 yards on the route. After the game I watched the replay and what do I see... Prince immediately squats down like he's about to take a dump on the play, and seemingly lets Bennett get the separation needed for him to be open on the play. I mean, it looked so ridiculous I wanted to shut the game off. Now can someone tell me why my #1 corner matched up on a mediocre receiving TE is going to act like he's taking a deuce in the middle of a pass play? I've certainly never seen that on Sundays. Maybe he might trip, or stumble, or whatever. That would actually be cool and realistic because those things happen, but instead, Madden decided before the play that Bennett "wins" and so they have to make Prince do something completely idiotic.

Sad...

[Bruce LeRoy]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Thanks for the great write up PG. I suspected most of the stuff you've stated its just nice hearing it from another legitimate source. This is exactly why I have not bought Madden since 2009.
So basically what alot of us on here already knew, the core engine is broken and was not made with real football fundamentals in mind. I remember reading an article a few months ago by someone at working on Madden last gen transition stating they had nothing but black screens in there computers just a few months before the release of Madden 06. Makes me think this current engine was rushed and not very well thought out or planned they rushed it.

The most depressing thing to me is that it looks like not much is going to change this new gen. I really don't see how they can go another 8-9 years with this bandaid approach without making major changes because I see most people getting bored with Madden real quick if they dont; they used all there excuses last gen people are not going to continue giving them chances. I really hope they have a team behind the scenes working on a new engine that they plan to use in production in a couple of years. Football is my favorite sport, and it really pisses me off that I don't have a good football game to play besides All Pro Football 2K8 with updated rosters.

[LBzrule]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Guess there is no hope for videogame football. Madden wanted to be the only kid on the block, and now it really is with the demise of NCAA Football(not that is was leaps and bounds better than Madden this gen).

I've given up on it to be honest. After playing Titanfall Alpha and Beta and a great deal of Killer Instinct I've become more of a general gamer. I'm looking for FUN, Deep Stories (Alan Wake style, so looking forward to Quantum Break), strategy (I feel like Killer Instinct has more strategy than Madden ). I just don't see Madden ever being anything primary for me. I see it as a secondary game now.

[stiffarmleft]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I agree LBz, football gaming was my primary focus and reason for upgrading consoles, with all other genres being the icing on top. Now I get my gaming fix from games with strong stories like Last of Us and Walking Dead and my strategy fix from the likes of XCOM. I would love for a football game to become the center of my gaming universe again. We all know that madden is flawed but for PGaither to really pull back the curtain on just how deficient the game is at is core, from a code perspective and philosophically, is really disheartening. I still hold out hope that enough loss sales will make them re-evaluate their philosophy or better yet competition.

[SageInfinite]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I've given up on it to be honest. After playing Titanfall Alpha and Beta and a great deal of Killer Instinct I've become more of a general gamer. I'm looking for FUN, Deep Stories (Alan Wake style, so looking forward to Quantum Break), strategy (I feel like Killer Instinct has more strategy than Madden ). I just don't see Madden ever being anything primary for me. I see it as a secondary game now.

Yeah there are just too many good experiences out there to waste too much time on Madden. I have always loved football videogames, and it's disappointing I can't enjoy them like I used to because the quality hasn't kept up with the times. I will always hold that against Tiburon and EA.

I thought coming into next gen would be the one opportunity they had to enter this generation strong. Give us a glimpse of something different. Seems like they have more plans on just coasting and doing the bare minimum while adding box features. For them to have some team dedicated exclusively to next gen, I just don't see what the pay off was yet. Maybe they'll shock me this year, but I won't hold my breath for a second.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I've given up on it to be honest. After playing Titanfall Alpha and Beta and a great deal of Killer Instinct I've become more of a general gamer. I'm looking for FUN, Deep Stories (Alan Wake style, so looking forward to Quantum Break), strategy (I feel like Killer Instinct has more strategy than Madden ). I just don't see Madden ever being anything primary for me. I see it as a secondary game now.

I can certainly understand this. I'm going to be completely honest. I would much rather give my money to a studio that actually tries and isn't incompetent. Everyone knows the talent level at Tiburon, we don't need to rehash it. It's best to just smile and laugh at them and move on. At least there are studios that really know how to create something special in games.

Titanfall is great, NBA 2k, MLB the Show, FIFA and even NHL are all outstanding games. THey have simulation options and are incredibly authentic. Madden is like the 15 year old kid who still has to sit at the kids table on Thanksgiving. However, as far as excuse-making goes - Tiburon's developers lead that category by a mile. They are the best at that bar none.

It's hard work making games, especially in this "entitlement" age where everyone expects success all of the time. That's why it takes a special level of commitment and dedication to create something special in this business. No one said making great games was easy. It's difficult to be exceptional in any line of work. Tiburon is not even mediocre.

Another find in APF2k8 that popped up when I played it last week. Ofsetting penalties. Funny, that doesn't even exist in Madden. The only NFL licensed game and an unlicensed one has everything it doesn't. I mean really, does anyone here even think that one of their developers even THOUGHT about offsetting penalties? You'd have to actually WATCH an NFL football game for that to happen. It's really sad.

[KANE699]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

That's good my man. I forgive you for making Patrick Willis look like the incredible hulk in Madden 10, but other than that, you do a fine job.


I do have to ask what is up with the terrible job EA has done with the 49ers uniforms [or at least the alternates] in Madden 25?


- The "striped socks" have no stripes. They are just off White.
- The 80's uniforms have numbers on the shoulder as well as the sleave, when it should only be on the sleve.
- The 80's helmet [which includes the 1994 throwbacks] for some reason have numbers on them... which they shouldn't, and of all things, those numbers are black [which looks extra terrible on the red White and gold helmet]
- The 1996-2008 tops are still missing despite having the white pants version of them.


[all of this is based on the Xbox 360, I don't have a next gen console yet]


============================================


Something else that bothers me about ratings is why Donny moore "hates on" line backers. Line backers all have TERRIBLE man and zone coverage ratings. The best man coverage line bacekr only has a 74 rating, while there are 27 Tight Ends with 74 or higher route running. The same goes with zone coverage. Linebackers know how to play man and zoen coverage. Some are even really good at it. We should see linebacekrs with low 90's and high 80's man and zone coverages. Only a few in the 90's but some. If the game is tuned properly, then the true reason why a line backer being lined up on a WR should be a mismatch is becasue of speed, and agility, which should be higher, or in the case of a Wes Welker, his 97+ route running will still "win" agaisnt a theoretical 92 man coverage OLB.


Hoenstly, with my own custom rosters, I go in and edit every linebacker. I give everyone a generic +15 man coverage [bring the best only up to 89 Man coverage] and +10 to zone [making the best a 93 or 94] Even with that improvemtn, it isn't liek everyone is amazing. there are only a handfull of elite coverage linebacekrs in my roster, but now every is less terrible. I guess I should share my roster later now that is a thing I can do in M25.

This will be my first full year go around to help on the uniforms if that helps. I didn't get to get many fixes in last year. Also I am only working on Gen 4 btw.

Also I didn't work on Madden 10! lol

[JaymeeAwesome]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I can certainly understand this. I'm going to be completely honest. I would much rather give my money to a studio that actually tries and isn't incompetent. Everyone knows the talent level at Tiburon, we don't need to rehash it. It's best to just smile and laugh at them and move on. At least there are studios that really know how to create something special in games.

Titanfall is great, NBA 2k, MLB the Show, FIFA and even NHL are all outstanding games. THey have simulation options and are incredibly authentic. Madden is like the 15 year old kid who still has to sit at the kids table on Thanksgiving. However, as far as excuse-making goes - Tiburon's developers lead that category by a mile. They are the best at that bar none.

It's hard work making games, especially in this "entitlement" age where everyone expects success all of the time. That's why it takes a special level of commitment and dedication to create something special in this business. No one said making great games was easy. It's difficult to be exceptional in any line of work. Tiburon is not even mediocre.

Another find in APF2k8 that popped up when I played it last week. Ofsetting penalties. Funny, that doesn't even exist in Madden. The only NFL licensed game and an unlicensed one has everything it doesn't. I mean really, does anyone here even think that one of their developers even THOUGHT about offsetting penalties? You'd have to actually WATCH an NFL football game for that to happen. It's really sad.

I don't think it's fair to attack the designers and engineers of the game. The game is the way it is due to the decisions made closer to the executive level. The coders have talent, or else they wouldn't be there. The more posts you write, my opinion of you diminishes. Attacking people who work hard to make their low wage and have to provide for their families is very sophomoric.

[PGaither84]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

This will be my first full year go around to help on the uniforms if that helps. I didn't get to get many fixes in last year. Also I am only working on Gen 4 btw.

Also I didn't work on Madden 10! lol

My understanding is that what you did at CD for Madden 10 got you your job, and I had an Exchange with Donny about Patrick Willis nad he forwarded me an email from you about making changes to him, which you and I talked about on twitter. :P I can't remember if it was 10 or 11, but in one of them he had a MASSIVE chest and upper body. He looked like an old school NFL bltiz carácter or one of EA Sports BIG players. It's okay, he looks good now.


It looks like even the NFL is fighting back against throw back uniforms. Some new rule where they don't want teams changing helmets mid season prevents the Patriots and other teams from using their throw back helmets. that isn't EA's fault. While they have far fewer alternates tan ESPN 2k5, they have a lot more than the NFL will allow.


I know this next part isn't quite your area, but I wish we could at least set the uniforms of the computer controlled away teams in CCM.

[KANE699]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I've bugged that last one in CFM every year man.

[ich2233]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I don't think it's fair to attack the designers and engineers of the game. The game is the way it is due to the decisions made closer to the executive level. The coders have talent, or else they wouldn't be there. The more posts you write, my opinion of you diminishes. Attacking people who work hard to make their low wage and have to provide for their families is very sophomoric.

I agree, but don't be too naive. Saying someone must be talented or else they would not be where they are is ignorant. I played College Baseball and a teammate of mine had to have surgery on both of his shoulders. 13 Months went by with zero improvement (Labrum Tear, should be close to 100% by then). Goes to a different Dr. turns out there was massive scar tissue around the injury because the surgeon had mindlessly hacked away at this kid's shoulder. I say View the professional world like you would Major League Baseball. There are the All-Stars, the Starters, the Bench Players, 3 levels of Minor Leagues and then 5 other levels of sh*t after that.

Just because someone has a Ph. D before their name, doesn't mean they're an All Star

[BezO]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Damn! Feels like I haven't posted here in a long while.

...The offenseive protection being tied directly to the defensive play call is why we don't have tiered play calling. in order to give us 2k play calling, they would have to overhaul the enitre game and rework blocking at a fundamental level...

Who knows why I wasn't invited back? They could've thought all my ideas sucked. But if I had to guess, this is why. ALL of my suggestions were like this, requiring complete overhauls to the game. It almost hurt me when they shut down the tiered defensive play calling suggestion.

Seems like they were looking more for enhancements to their current systems. Makes me wonder why they invited me down there 2 years in a row. In hindsight, almost none of my suggestions on OS were quick fixes.

...You could also see that with one night of work that they were able to impelment a small change that could fundamentally change how Madden was played. I think that also showed the truth behind the excuse of money and time and resources needed to "fix" the game. So what happened to this small "fix?" it is in Madden 11 on the disc. It has since been "patched" out of the game...

Similar issue with the stunts LBz & I used to harp on. Far from perfect, but Ian made a quick fix during lunch. If I remember correctly, he addressed only 1 or 2 defensive plays. I'm guessing a global fix was beyond the scope of what they were willing to do.

That was the basis of my enthusiasm. Make a suggestions, go to lunch & bam. I remember thinking all they needed were some sim gamers down there, early enough in the cycle to affect that year's game. Well, that fix never made the retail version. From what I've seen, the stunts are still aimless loops by d-linemen to this day.

I've given up on it to be honest. After playing Titanfall Alpha and Beta and a great deal of Killer Instinct I've become more of a general gamer. I'm looking for FUN, Deep Stories (Alan Wake style, so looking forward to Quantum Break), strategy (I feel like Killer Instinct has more strategy than Madden ). I just don't see Madden ever being anything primary for me. I see it as a secondary game now.

This is where I am except I only play sports games, so my gaming is likely coming to an end. I was down to 2 games; The Show & NBA 2K. New gen's NBA 2K turned me off with its online requirements; I typically only bought The Show every other year or so; and Madden hasn't reminded me of football since 2004/5.

I'm not buying a new system for 1 game. At minimum, I'll need both NBA 2K & The Show to be great before buying a PS4. But I'm not sure 2 games will do it. FIFA, MMA, tennis, car racing... something else will have to shine.

Damn! I've been playing video games since Atari. I'm sure my lady will be happy though.

[PGaither84]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I am only allowed to like your reply once BeZo, so I am going to post here to like it a second time it was so good. Do you have Skype or Facebook or something? Send me a PM. We need to chat football in general again. It was always fun to talk just good old football with you guys!

[JaymeeAwesome]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I agree, but don't be too naive. Saying someone must be talented or else they would not be where they are is ignorant. I played College Baseball and a teammate of mine had to have surgery on both of his shoulders. 13 Months went by with zero improvement (Labrum Tear, should be close to 100% by then). Goes to a different Dr. turns out there was massive scar tissue around the injury because the surgeon had mindlessly hacked away at this kid's shoulder. I say View the professional world like you would Major League Baseball. There are the All-Stars, the Starters, the Bench Players, 3 levels of Minor Leagues and then 5 other levels of sh*t after that.



Just because someone has a Ph. D before their name, doesn't mean they're an All Star

But the only people that can call them untalented are fellow designers that know what restrictions were put in place by upper management. I don't think any of us are qualified.