So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

[GiantBlue76]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I don't think it's fair to attack the designers and engineers of the game. The game is the way it is due to the decisions made closer to the executive level. The coders have talent, or else they wouldn't be there. The more posts you write, my opinion of you diminishes. Attacking people who work hard to make their low wage and have to provide for their families is very sophomoric.

I'm not interested in your opinion whatsoever, so think what you like. You constantly come on here and defend the game and the developers, but this line really shows that you have no idea what the software industry is really like.

The coders have talent, or else they wouldn't be there. Attacking people who work hard to make their low wage and have to provide for their families is very sophomoric

First off, NONE of them are making a low wage, I can guarantee you that. Secondly, the executive level does not implement gameplay features or any of the code base. The game is the way it is because developers have made decisions that are mind boggling and amateurish at best. Those are facts and have been verified by many who have either worked there or been there. However, if you choose to ignore that, you can simply play this game and just laugh at how horrendous some of the implementation is. There are tons of bugs and issues as well. Are there some talented guys there? Sure. However, overall, the poor developers outweigh the good.

For the record, you can attack me all you want, but your post history says enough about you and your opinions. You choose to see only what you WISH rather than what it really is. I choose to live in reality. Carry on...

[RACZILLA]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I am only allowed to like your reply once BeZo, so I am going to post here to like it a second time it was so good. Do you have Skype or Facebook or something? Send me a PM. We need to chat football in general again. It was always fun to talk just good old football with you guys!

Indeed. Feels like a reunion in here.

BezO, hope all is well!

[RACZILLA]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

you have no idea what the software industry is really like.

I think that's par for the course whenever someone is on the outside looking in. Even for those who are working on games, you're going to hear different perspectives.

Ultimately I don't think players should have to care about the challenges of game development. It's cool if they do, but it's on developers to figure that out and take whatever scrutiny comes along with it.

[KANE699]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I'm not interested in your opinion whatsoever, so think what you like. You constantly come on here and defend the game and the developers, but this line really shows that you have no idea what the software industry is really like.

First off, NONE of them are making a low wage, I can guarantee you that. Secondly, the executive level does not implement gameplay features or any of the code base. The game is the way it is because developers have made decisions that are mind boggling and amateurish at best. Those are facts and have been verified by many who have either worked there or been there. However, if you choose to ignore that, you can simply play this game and just laugh at how horrendous some of the implementation is. There are tons of bugs and issues as well. Are there some talented guys there? Sure. However, overall, the poor developers outweigh the good.

For the record, you can attack me all you want, but your post history says enough about you and your opinions. You choose to see only what you WISH rather than what it really is. I choose to live in reality. Carry on...

The only low wages are QA, trust me.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I think that's par for the course whenever someone is on the outside looking in. Even for those who are working on games, you're going to hear different perspectives.

Ultimately I don't think players should have to care about the challenges of game development. It's cool if they do, but it's on developers to figure that out and take whatever scrutiny comes along with it.

I agree 100%. It's not like that only for games, it's for any software - or actually for anyTHING. Consumers pay for products and expect them to work. They are not interested in "how difficult" something is and they shouldn't be. That's just an excuse. Do I think people complain WAY more than they should about sports games? ABSOLUTELY - but not when it comes to Madden. All of the criticism is warranted and it is self induced.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

EA did, and does, what they have to, to make money...They got the exclusives so they could be competition free in the area of Football...That allows resources, money, to be added to things like First Person Shooters(FPS), where you are not getting an exclusive that will allow you to be the only FPS, so that is where you need to put the big dollars to beat out Activision and their "Call of Duty," which they might have done here with Battlefield 4, if you believe the media coverage....

Without competition, Madden will be the bare bones minimum, to maintain it's profit level...

[roadman]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I agree 100%. It's not like that only for games, it's for any software - or actually for anyTHING. Consumers pay for products and expect them to work. They are not interested in "how difficult" something is and they shouldn't be. That's just an excuse. Do I think people complain WAY more than they should about sports games? ABSOLUTELY - but not when it comes to Madden. All of the criticism is warranted and it is self induced.

Even your last sentence is true for other areas of industry of products that my wife and I own inside and outside of our home.

My patience is wearing very thin all across the board, not just Madden.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

EA did, and does, what they have to, to make money...They got the exclusives so they could be competition free in the area of Football...That allows resources, money, to be added to things like First Person Shooters(FPS), where you are not getting an exclusive that will allow you to be the only FPS, so that is where you need to put the big dollars to beat out Activision and their "Call of Duty," which they might have done here with Battlefield 4, if you believe the media coverage....

Without competition, Madden will be the bare bones minimum, to maintain it's profit level...

Well that's just it - your hope for a product is year over year increases. Sales have been bad for Madden (as far as what they are looking for). Next Gen Madden did not sell well, and sales have been down year to year on Gen 3. People are tired of waiting and have left the football genre to play something else. Every company is in business to make money. Any company who isn't won't be here long. There are ways to make money and build something special. Usually, the two go hand in hand. In this case, they artificially cornered the market - of which their own execs, at the time, admitted to having an inferior product and needing to "crush them before they take the market".

As far as ability levels go - I'm sure a lot of guys here played real sports at some point. Maybe you played baseball in high school and worked your *** off. Hours and hours a day on mechanics and working out. Did you make it to the big leagues? Other guys made it maybe because they are just more talented and have more ability to cultivate. Sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you work (or how hard you think you work in this case), it doesn't mean that you are the right person for the job.

I highly doubt the executives had a hand in making sure that player movement, ball physics, uniforms, penalties, CFM functions, line play and other elements were broken. Every other major sports game is or offers a simulation aspect to the game. Madden doesn't even have the right injury system. Players flopping over like a fish? No injury statuses? Contracts all backloaded? These are just some of the small examples. My players are still hunched over and slide all over. Line play was even "addressed" and it's still not working. Just call a play action pass against a 3 man rush... You'll get sacked as all of your lineman just slide out of the play and don't block anyone.

I know how hard it is to make good software and even harder to make GREAT software. However, people who belong in the software business ALWAYS find a way to do it (unless you are at Tiburon). Making excuses isn't what gets things done. LIke I said, I like guys like Vic Lugo, Scantlebury and Clint Odenburgh. These guys "get it", but there are others who don't and won't. You ever look at the Madden draft classes? Riddled with receivers with 65 speed and offensive lineman who have 75 speed. Wow - show me a combine where a receiver ran a slower 40 time than ANY offensive lineman. You'd maybe have to watch a LITTLE bit of football to actually see that. Not to mention, have a tie in your playoff hunt? Looman tells me on twitter that the tie breakers work "just like the NFL". Wrong again. Season 2, there was a wild card tie - didn't work, screwed a guy out of the playoffs. How hard is it to get that right? The entire algorithm is spelled out for you from the NFL, it's not like you have to design it! This is exactly what I mean by talent. That has nothing to do with the "suits".

[BezO]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I am only allowed to like your reply once BeZo, so I am going to post here to like it a second time it was so good. Do you have Skype or Facebook or something? Send me a PM. We need to chat football in general again. It was always fun to talk just good old football with you guys!

PM sent.

Indeed. Feels like a reunion in here.

BezO, hope all is well!

Chillin'! Ditto, Rac.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Well that's just it - your hope for a product is year over year increases. Sales have been bad for Madden (as far as what they are looking for). Next Gen Madden did not sell well, and sales have been down year to year on Gen 3. People are tired of waiting and have left the football genre to play something else. Every company is in business to make money. Any company who isn't won't be here long. There are ways to make money and build something special. Usually, the two go hand in hand. In this case, they artificially cornered the market - of which their own execs, at the time, admitted to having an inferior product and needing to "crush them before they take the market".

As far as ability levels go - I'm sure a lot of guys here played real sports at some point. Maybe you played baseball in high school and worked your *** off. Hours and hours a day on mechanics and working out. Did you make it to the big leagues? Other guys made it maybe because they are just more talented and have more ability to cultivate. Sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you work (or how hard you think you work in this case), it doesn't mean that you are the right person for the job.

I highly doubt the executives had a hand in making sure that player movement, ball physics, uniforms, penalties, CFM functions, line play and other elements were broken. Every other major sports game is or offers a simulation aspect to the game. Madden doesn't even have the right injury system. Players flopping over like a fish? No injury statuses? Contracts all backloaded? These are just some of the small examples. My players are still hunched over and slide all over. Line play was even "addressed" and it's still not working. Just call a play action pass against a 3 man rush... You'll get sacked as all of your lineman just slide out of the play and don't block anyone.

I know how hard it is to make good software and even harder to make GREAT software. However, people who belong in the software business ALWAYS find a way to do it (unless you are at Tiburon). Making excuses isn't what gets things done. LIke I said, I like guys like Vic Lugo, Scantlebury and Clint Odenburgh. These guys "get it", but there are others who don't and won't. You ever look at the Madden draft classes? Riddled with receivers with 65 speed and offensive lineman who have 75 speed. Wow - show me a combine where a receiver ran a slower 40 time than ANY offensive lineman. You'd maybe have to watch a LITTLE bit of football to actually see that. Not to mention, have a tie in your playoff hunt? Looman tells me on twitter that the tie breakers work "just like the NFL". Wrong again. Season 2, there was a wild card tie - didn't work, screwed a guy out of the playoffs. How hard is it to get that right? The entire algorithm is spelled out for you from the NFL, it's not like you have to design it! This is exactly what I mean by talent. That has nothing to do with the "suits".

I agree with a lot of what you have stated...I would propose that the suits determine what is available for attracting the best talent to work on a product..Thus I would argue that EA is not doing as much to help attract the best of the best to make Madden..They may all be programmers, but are they the "A" student programmers on Madden, or are those working for DICE?

[dghustla]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Thank you to this guy. I was one of the ppl who defended EA until the end before PS4 dropped. I believed and believed and believed. Then I got Madden on PS4 and i'm utterly disappointed. Dispite my disappointment I still play the game everyday (i'm a sheep, I know).

While playing over the weekend I actually realized how Madden is truly just barely a functional game. This game is literally held together by threads. Players run to ball on every play with no assignment. A SS or OLB outside the tackle take steps to the middle of the field every time. Its the reason why outside runs are so abused. Honestly it's PeeWee ball stuff. I expect that from 8 year olds but not in a football game that is 25 years old.

Until EA actually makes the defense Read and React and not just "start" covering or auto dropping into zones at the snap this game will never work properly.

I will say this I don't care that this guy is playing the Jaded lover card. Because there is always truth in there. We all know EA is scamming the public. We know the devs don't care about progressing the game faster. As long as MUT sells and Copies sell it doesn't matter. This guy doesn't like the other guys because they EA moles infiltrating the public, as "one of us" and "one of them" like in Terminator Salvation. These guys get exclusive video from EA, it gets their websites hits and their adsense clicks and they make money. I'm truly glad this guy has seen the light...

And as far as his dislike for the other guys...isn't this what EA does. Take something that is pure that is born out of good intentions. Ignore it then bring in hype men to glorify their marginal efforts and improvements? EA booted this guy because he was the "old guard". They probably saw him as a liability and annoying and that he wasn't essential to advancing their cause.

The real question is WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Will we use our power as the consumer or will we be sitting at GameStop at 11:59 on a Monday night the second week in august? Will we sit back and say "I'm just 1 person, EA won't miss my sales?"

Who is ready to protest in Orlando for real change?

[roadman]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

^^

Your last paragraph has been asked many times over for several years.

The people in Orlando will make the game they want, what they feel will sell the most copies.

I might be Debbie Downer, but I've given up.

Time to throw in the white flag for me.

[Kramer5150]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

I might be Debbie Downer, but I've given up.

Time to throw in the white flag for me.

Sadly,this is where I'm currently at.
I'm tired of the yearly excuses,and the yearly defenders. It's been waaay to long,and I'm thoroughly convinced that we'll never get the game we want.

What's funny (and baffling) to me,is that EA has every available resource available to them in regards to the NFL....and yet year in and year out something as visual as uniforms are still wrong.

I've said this before....the game of football from an X's and O's standpoint has not drastically changed to warrant the "snail" improvements in this game.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

^^

Your last paragraph has been asked many times over for several years.

The people in Orlando will make the game they want, what they feel will sell the most copies.

I might be Debbie Downer, but I've given up.

Time to throw in the white flag for me.

Agreed Terry.

Also, just look at what the NBA live team is attempting to do. They actually wrote a public apology to the fans for the quality of NBA LIve with a promise to make the game better. Where is my apology for ruining football gaming? What Tiburon has done with Madden is an atrocity. I don't blame a lot of guys for leaving the studio, I'd be embarrassed to admit I worked on it. Just goes to show you what competition will do. There isn't a single person who works at Tiburon who does not know that if the license hadn't happened, Madden would be NBA Live. NBA 2k is a simulation, yet you have 12 year old kids clamoring to play it. Same thing with the Show. The nonsense that they mention about Madden needing to appease all fans is complete and utter BS. Make a simulation game, and pay attention to details. Prove to us that more than 6 weeks of work goes into the game each year. 2 years to implement pass trajectories? (Which don't even work). Give me a break.

[SageInfinite]

Re: So who do we believe when it comes to the GameChanger program?

Agreed Terry.

Also, just look at what the NBA live team is attempting to do. They actually wrote a public apology to the fans for the quality of NBA LIve with a promise to make the game better. Where is my apology for ruining football gaming? What Tiburon has done with Madden is an atrocity. I don't blame a lot of guys for leaving the studio, I'd be embarrassed to admit I worked on it. Just goes to show you what competition will do. There isn't a single person who works at Tiburon who does not know that if the license hadn't happened, Madden would be NBA Live. NBA 2k is a simulation, yet you have 12 year old kids clamoring to play it. Same thing with the Show. The nonsense that they mention about Madden needing to appease all fans is complete and utter BS. Make a simulation game, and pay attention to details. Prove to us that more than 6 weeks of work goes into the game each year. 2 years to implement pass trajectories? (Which don't even work). Give me a break.

Don't give the Live team any credit for that apology, lol. They aren't any better. They basically canceled out that apology by saying the initial reviews of the game were unfair. They also lied about the update feature they were supposed to have this year. Something is seriously wrong down there in Florida.