Drag Routes Always Open?

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Agreed but many people I've seen around lately act as if, you do X = should always stop Y. Same thing people were getting upset about with the WR catching. I find its a lot more grey area to football and people get hung up on "would that really happen like that?", then you see in a real game Brown make a one handed catch off the DB's helmet and go "Damn that looked like Madden!". Yet if this same thing happened in their Play Now game they would come here with video footage of how "unrealistic" the game is.

It really should though. If you press and inside shade a slant shouldn't be an option - period.

Unless the corner just gets blown through of the release.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

It really should though. If you press and inside shade a slant shouldn't be an option - period.

Unless the corner just gets blown through of the release.

You are contradicting yourself, your saying "It really should stop it" then right after "well unless the CB gets beat".

So answer me this, AP 2012, 2000+ yard season. Did teams not stack the box damn near every play to stop just him KNOWING he was getting the ball??? Yet he still rushed for over 2,000 yards. This mind set that football is rock paper scissors is wrong. A better chance or higher probability of success might exist for certain calls vs certain plays but lets get one thing right........there is no kryptonite which leaves plays with zero success.

Now i'll agree all day the shading can be tweaked to work slightly better but its not far off from realism in its current state. It favors the WR a tad bit but it should never be tweaked how you are implying.

In your world this is stopped 24/7. Butler plays a outside shade, defends the route perfectly, ends up in perfect postion, yet Brown comes down with the ball. I can hear it already "EA PASS COVERAGE IS BROKEN!!! DB's don't play the ball properly!" Play calling just grants higher CHANCE of success, not guaranteed success!
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...hes-11-yard-TD

If you want, I'll show video footage as the year goes on of inside shade getting beat

Sent from da lil phone.

[DreSki]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

You are contradicting yourself, your saying "It really should stop it" then right after "well unless the CB gets beat".

So answer me this, AP 2012, 2000+ yard season. Did teams not stack the box damn near every play to stop just him KNOWING he was getting the ball??? Yet he still rushed for over 2,000 yards. This mind set that football is rock paper scissors is wrong. A better chance or higher probability of success might exist for certain calls vs certain plays but lets get one thing right........there is no kryptonite which leaves plays with zero success.

Now i'll agree all day the shading can be tweaked to work slightly better but its not far off from realism in its current state. It favors the WR a tad bit but it should never be tweaked how you are implying.

In your world this is stopped 24/7. Butler plays a outside shade, defends the route perfectly, ends up in perfect postion, yet Brown comes down with the ball. I can hear it already "EA PASS COVERAGE IS BROKEN!!! DB's don't play the ball properly!" Play calling just grants higher CHANCE of success, not guaranteed success!
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...hes-11-yard-TD

If you want, I'll show video footage as the year goes on of inside shade getting beat

Sent from da lil phone.

I agree completely. As a former player i know first hand that shading inside or outside shoulders isnt a definite 100% success chance to break up a pass. What i personally am asking for is better chance at defending said passes and for it to feel more authentic if a catch is made. A slant for a good 3-4 yards with a corner just getting beat im cool with. Slants where the receiver has a 5 yard step with a good man corner playing that route inside grinds my gears. A big issue i have personally is that corners either 8 yards off or they press theres no inbetween area here.

Also in that vid you posted Brown made the slant and Butler was still there on him. Obvioulsy that was a corner route and not a slant but he was with him the whole way that was just a great throw by Big Ben. If anything i want to see more of that ingame. Right now routes break WAY too wide open for my tastes. Locomotion and defender hip movement is probably a huge part of this as well too tho.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

I agree completely. As a former player i know first hand that shading inside or outside shoulders isnt a definite 100% success chance to break up a pass. What i personally am asking for is better chance at defending said passes and for it to feel more authentic if a catch is made. A slant for a good 3-4 yards with a corner just getting beat im cool with. Slants where the receiver has a 5 yard step with a good man corner playing that route inside grinds my gears. A big issue i have personally is that corners either 8 yards off or they press theres no inbetween area here.

Also in that vid you posted Brown made the slant and Butler was still there on him. Obvioulsy that was a corner route and not a slant but he was with him the whole way that was just a great throw by Big Ben. If anything i want to see more of that ingame. Right now routes break WAY too wide open for my tastes. Locomotion and defender hip movement is probably a huge part of this as well too tho.

We on the same page man!!

[SolidSquid]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Like the two guys above me said, I'd def be ok with my guys getting beat even at the same rate they are now if they could cut down the wide open space receivers have. Every corner route should not generate an automatic 5 yards of separation. I play a lot with the Bucs and Lavonte David one of if not the fastest weak side lbs (another thing we need) in the NFL cannot even run with scrub tight ends.

[ChaseB]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

You are contradicting yourself, your saying "It really should stop it" then right after "well unless the CB gets beat".

So answer me this, AP 2012, 2000+ yard season. Did teams not stack the box damn near every play to stop just him KNOWING he was getting the ball??? Yet he still rushed for over 2,000 yards. This mind set that football is rock paper scissors is wrong. A better chance or higher probability of success might exist for certain calls vs certain plays but lets get one thing right........there is no kryptonite which leaves plays with zero success.

Now i'll agree all day the shading can be tweaked to work slightly better but its not far off from realism in its current state. It favors the WR a tad bit but it should never be tweaked how you are implying.

In your world this is stopped 24/7. Butler plays a outside shade, defends the route perfectly, ends up in perfect postion, yet Brown comes down with the ball. I can hear it already "EA PASS COVERAGE IS BROKEN!!! DB's don't play the ball properly!" Play calling just grants higher CHANCE of success, not guaranteed success!
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...hes-11-yard-TD

If you want, I'll show video footage as the year goes on of inside shade getting beat

Sent from da lil phone.

I don't disagree with this, I would just add that it's still a video game. By which I mean, if somebody is constantly going to the same Concept or play over and over and you know it's coming and still struggle to stop it, that's not going to lead to positive thoughts for a user because they'll feel cheated at some point.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

So I just ran a game in play now to test the new rosters. Couple things to note, I will show the shade working and not working. It was a fantastic game where good defensive play calling limited Eli to hold on to the ball more by running a base nickle cover 2 defense with base align, press, shade inside. It of course didn't stop him but did force several 3 and outs.

Settings
All-Pro (default sliders)
15 Quarters
16 sec Accelerate clock

Score
Jags(Me) - 31 - 14/3/7/7
NYG(CPU) - 20 - 7/6/0/7

Passing
27/37 - 352 yards - 72% - 3 TD - 1 Int (Bortles-Jags)
19/33 - 303 yards - 57% - 2 TD - 1 Int (Manning - NYG)

Rushing
30 carries - 65 yards - 2.1 ypc - 1 TD (Yeldon-Jags)
15 carries - 85 yards - 5.6 ypc (Jennings-NYG)

Receiving
7 catches - 164 yards - 23.4 yac - 1 TD - 72 Long (Thomas-Jags)
6 catches - 53 yards - 8.8 yac - 17 Long (Robinson-Jags)
6 catches - 129 yards - 21.5 yac - 1 TD - 42 Long (Beckham-NYG)
4 catches - 31 yards - 7.7 yac - 17 Long (Donnell-NYG)

Defense
6 solo - 1 asst - 7 total - 1 Sack (Smith-Jags)
3 solo - 3 asst - 6 total - 1 Int (McCray-Jags)
6 solo - 5 asst - 11 total (Beason-NYG)
4 solo - 0 asst - 4 total - 1 Sack (Ayers Jr.-NYG)

Highlights

Thomas big 72 yard reception in first quarter
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nWIUHoCW2r0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Outside shade, it does not limit receiver but it does force him out of bounds for illegal touching penality
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YaF3muqsZak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Inside shade, one WR is running a slant you will notice the shade causes contact which puts the DB in position for the pick(He plays it correctly). Next WR is going outside and the inside shade just allows the outside release. Last WR Cruz, is running a inside route and blows by the corner with no trouble. Cruz dominated this guy on the press/shade all game.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Vsnu4GRL7FU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This play the I see the safety walk down. I know it will be single coverage (cover 1) over the top so I'm going to test the safety. It works and the WR comes down with the TD.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/b1ptF6t7aJY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DreSki]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

We on the same page man!!

Absolutely man. Glad someone understands where im coming from. Just want to see and feel that realism from sundays and as a person that loves defense and used to play that side of the ball not being able to play proper d sometimes just kills me.

[Ruben2424]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

So I've been messing with the game quite a bit just to see if there's anything that was over-powered and started to notice that drag routes are wide open 95% of the time.

It's weird, because I can't really find any other routes that are so open. I guess the good news is that it's a low yardage play, for the most part. And press coverage mixed with a little blitzing/pressure usually blows the play up. Just wish that the CPU CB's could defend it, given that it's one of the easier things to cover in football.

Anyone else seeing this, or am I crazy?

"It's one of the easiest things to cover in football"???...Obviously you've never played DB in any kind of organized football. How can you expect a CB to jump the route when all the receiver has to do is run 3-4 yards at most and cut across the field! Even if the CB is pressing, it only takes 1 or 2 steps to get inside position! The only way a defense can stop a drag route is either by leaving linebackers in the box or allowing the catch and having your defenders fly to the ball. A fast defense can get there before the receiver can cut up field. Drag routes are obviously meant for short yardage situations so it's not like you can win a game using nothing but drag routes! It's a situational play.

[Kushmir]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

I agree completely. As a former player i know first hand that shading inside or outside shoulders isnt a definite 100% success chance to break up a pass. What i personally am asking for is better chance at defending said passes and for it to feel more authentic if a catch is made. A slant for a good 3-4 yards with a corner just getting beat im cool with. Slants where the receiver has a 5 yard step with a good man corner playing that route inside grinds my gears. A big issue i have personally is that corners either 8 yards off or they press theres no inbetween area here.

Also in that vid you posted Brown made the slant and Butler was still there on him. Obvioulsy that was a corner route and not a slant but he was with him the whole way that was just a great throw by Big Ben. If anything i want to see more of that ingame. Right now routes break WAY too wide open for my tastes. Locomotion and defender hip movement is probably a huge part of this as well too tho.

THIS.

The whole "automatically stops it" isn't what anyone who plays the chess game wants...what we do want, however is better chances at success...and like the guy said, sometimes you guess CJ is gonna fade you in the endzone and you still get beat. For the record, i've tested the shading extensively and it simply doesnt work enough to claim its a feature. At a basic level we should see the corners visibly play inside/outside so they can make plays and we dont. the Commit feature is really the key...if its expanded and given depth it should give us better results when we prep our defenders for whats coming, and we're RIGHT (and consequences if we're not) no hardcore player wants INTs or fumbles everytime we guess right...how about deflections, defenders getting off blocks faster, having the defender dislodge the ball or having one of my D linemen put a hand in the passing lane and bat the ball down? right now Commit is so arcady and its really a shame, there's no reason it shouldnt be changing the way we play madden from a strategic standpoint.

here's a piece I wrote about expanding Commit for the SG Blog. we really need to see it expanded and made into a core feature. It gives real users the option to trick a guy into playing run so we can set up play action or a deep pass after we run three straight curls. The game has historically been about tricking/exploiting the AI when it should be about fooling the other user. http://spgmg.blogspot.com/2012/03/wh...mmit.html#more

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

I don't disagree with this, I would just add that it's still a video game. By which I mean, if somebody is constantly going to the same Concept or play over and over and you know it's coming and still struggle to stop it, that's not going to lead to positive thoughts for a user because they'll feel cheated at some point.

This is my mindset. If we knows what's coming and properly setup for it - reward us.

[Kushmir]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

played a guy online with GB (as usual, I was philly) this weekend. I beat him 24-3 but he completed waaay too many vertical passes into double coverage (cover 2 man)

he also ran play-action 10-15 times. on most of them I committed my defense to the pass and had my DEs edge rush...every time I had someone running free he tackled the HB. EVERY TIME. This can't happen.

gameplay has to be better than this.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

So I just ran a game in play now to test the new rosters. Couple things to note, I will show the shade working and not working. It was a fantastic game where good defensive play calling limited Eli to hold on to the ball more by running a base nickle cover 2 defense with base align, press, shade inside. It of course didn't stop him but did force several 3 and outs.

Settings
All-Pro (default sliders)
15 Quarters
16 sec Accelerate clock

Score
Jags(Me) - 31 - 14/3/7/7
NYG(CPU) - 20 - 7/6/0/7

Passing
27/37 - 352 yards - 72% - 3 TD - 1 Int (Bortles-Jags)
19/33 - 303 yards - 57% - 2 TD - 1 Int (Manning - NYG)

Rushing
30 carries - 65 yards - 2.1 ypc - 1 TD (Yeldon-Jags)
15 carries - 85 yards - 5.6 ypc (Jennings-NYG)

Receiving
7 catches - 164 yards - 23.4 yac - 1 TD - 72 Long (Thomas-Jags)
6 catches - 53 yards - 8.8 yac - 17 Long (Robinson-Jags)
6 catches - 129 yards - 21.5 yac - 1 TD - 42 Long (Beckham-NYG)
4 catches - 31 yards - 7.7 yac - 17 Long (Donnell-NYG)

Defense
6 solo - 1 asst - 7 total - 1 Sack (Smith-Jags)
3 solo - 3 asst - 6 total - 1 Int (McCray-Jags)
6 solo - 5 asst - 11 total (Beason-NYG)
4 solo - 0 asst - 4 total - 1 Sack (Ayers Jr.-NYG)

Highlights

Thomas big 72 yard reception in first quarter
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nWIUHoCW2r0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Outside shade, it does not limit receiver but it does force him out of bounds for illegal touching penality
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YaF3muqsZak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Inside shade, one WR is running a slant you will notice the shade causes contact which puts the DB in position for the pick(He plays it correctly). Next WR is going outside and the inside shade just allows the outside release. Last WR Cruz, is running a inside route and blows by the corner with no trouble. Cruz dominated this guy on the press/shade all game.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Vsnu4GRL7FU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This play the I see the safety walk down. I know it will be single coverage (cover 1) over the top so I'm going to test the safety. It works and the WR comes down with the TD.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/b1ptF6t7aJY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So you share outside and your guy gives up a free outside release but it's illegal touching bc the Wr steps out of bounds. Then you have Gratz shade inside and he almost gets a pick, but watch the animations again. Gratz never attempts to take away an inside release and is playing the WRs outside shoulder the whole time then jumps inside when the pass is thrown.

Shading is more than just getting ints or swats, I want to shade to throw off timing routes and make the qb make split second decisions.

[Kushmir]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

^agreed. and i'd argue shading isnt in the game unless the defender gets visibly on the correct shoulder. watch aquib talib on this Flacco thrown from sunday...this is what shading inside looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrzOymDgxI

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

So I watched these games in full.
Steelers vs Patriots
Dolphins vs Redskins
Cardinals vs Saints
Giants vs Cowboys

I've also seen all the highlights for all the other games and I don't ever remember seeing where this "inside shade" takes away timing routes or where a particular shade direction "prevents" a open release. We are talking two physical athletes fighting for position. Its not a simple, oh I shade this way and boom no more going that direction. This is just silly talk.

I'll show several examples just from this week. Show me examples of this so called "preventing" shade which stops all these routes you and Find_the_Door want. I've gone through all highlights from what I see mimics very close to what madden is bringing to the table.

Like I said several times in this thread, I don't think it is perfect and could use SMALL tweaking in favor of the defense but not to the extent some are painting the picture of it being useless & broken.


Might want to tell the almighty his engine is not realistic. Inside shade, no press, and just burnt.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-his-second-TD

Simple fade route, what about the contact and coverage looks different than what madden is doing?
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-m...e-has-Hop-kins

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-for-1-yard-TD

This is a good one because everyone talks about WR's being open 5 to 8 yards. Press coverage, terrible press, no different than madden, then look at the space upon reception.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-the-3-yard-TD

Outside shade and the WR just runs right through it for the easy TD
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-for-4-yard-TD

Simple slant creating tons of space
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...r-a-21-yard-TD

Short out, killing the DB
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...t-of-his-shoes