the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

[adembroski]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

But you don't have a problem with how the AI interacts with this though?
Or better - "lack thereof"?

I said it improved progression drastically. I didn't say it was the best progression system I'd ever seen. Did you not play Madden 18? Try examining the decisions the CPU made last year.

Schemes are just a gimmick IMO. No point at all. Also, not sure how you don't see the unfair advantage the user has over the CPU when it comes to extra XP?

The user always has an advantage over the CPU. It's called a brain.

And frankly, no, I don't see it in this case. All of the evidence I see is that it progresses what's already highest, which in my testing, is the most efficient way progress players unless they're VERY close to being a scheme fit. Any more than 2 points, maybe 3, that's wasteful.

See the players I posted earlier. Closing the gap between archetypes takes at least twice the existing gap. So if you've got a 75 scheme vs. an 80 non-scheme, you're going to be raising the non-scheme as you raise the scheme fit. The best test case above was Leonard Fournette, who had a 2-1 ratio (note the rest weren't as favorable, so this is best case):

76/81
77/81
78/82
79/82
80/83
81/83
82/84
83/84
84/85
85/85

So 10 skill points to get a scheme fit. For a lot players, by the time they go up 10 points they've already missed most of their progression window. You could spend a season or two getting him to a scheme fit, or you could get him to a 91 non-scheme fit. You think the CPU should default to the dumb option?

[adembroski]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

I simmed a season, this time with manual progression enabled. default xp sliders. it took only 1 upgrade at the end of the season for me to get ronald darby, zack ertz, rodney mcleod, and sidney jones to fit the scheme. by the end of year 2 I got wentz and agholor to fit the scheme.

it didn't take long at all, and no skill points were wasted. now all those players will be gaining more XP (and they should perform better in my scheme). its hardly a waste, its a smart investment. by comparison, with the CPU handling progression, after 3 years all of those players still don't fit the scheme, and in some cases like Wentz he got even further away from the scheme fit. its a huge advantage to the user. the only thing thats a waste to me is that they made this cool new schemes feature but didn't program it so the CPU can utilize it worth a damn.

I get it, if a guy for example Derek Barnett is 81 power rusher and 73 speed rusher (the scheme fit) it might be a waste to keep boosting his speed rusher he is probably never gonna get there. but guys who are within a few points should be upgraded to match the scheme every time, thats a no brainer in my mind. and the CPU is incapable of doing it.

When it's really close, sure, but it usually isn't. Should the AI be smarter and make a choice based on circumstances? Yes. But if they had to go with one method and have the CPU stick with it, they made the right choice.

[timhere1970]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

Maybe we have to look at this as what our coaching staff is best at developing instead of what we want to force all players to become... same for other teams.

[deiied]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

@adembroski You make some really good points about how the AI teams progresses their players.

I was wondering if you have any knowledge about whether or not the AI teams draft based on their scheme?

It would be reassuring to know that they take that into account when drafting.

[Ueauvan]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

the whole scheme thing prevents me creating the team i want, with the players and formations i want. i can only use a scheme as defined by EA. I totally agree with Adam, i dont always increase the scheme to meet the template. if there are stats i think important then i increase them ie a wr with route running even if a deep threat. i want rounded players that are flexible. i dont want speed rushers as my rolb or a hybrid/rs ss in my 3-4. i want a field general as rolb because they play the second highest number of snaps. i want a zone safety both sides.
so we dont upset mut, competition or online games then let there be an offline only franchise option to create what you want. for me that means a custom 3-4. i always thought 3-4 DEs were 6' 7" odd and 290 odd lbs and their job was to stuff the run and the NT was to absorb double teams.
my other issue is i draft on best available, if i get an awesome pass coverage MLB who i want to play as the Jack, why cant i have that as a scheme change to best use my personnel or in fact best use the money invested?
and a minor thing, according to NFL.com Solomon Thomas is 280lbs, in M19 he is 246 ... health scare anyone

[timhere1970]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

I definitely like the old way of picking archetypes and wish we could still do this with the schemes fitting better. In fact, it would be nice to have coaches come into the league with a bunch of different archetypes and the one's who win games stick around and those that don't disappear.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

Maybe we have to look at this as what our coaching staff is best at developing instead of what we want to force all players to become... same for other teams.

We need an actual coaching staff in that case

Let the boost be based on each coaches specialty. An O-line coach that boosts zone blocking, a WR coach that can develop a possession WR or a deep threat. D-line coach that specializes in run stuffers or pass rushers.

Allow the staff to level up and eventually get offered coordinator positions (taking plays from the coordinators they’ve played under) and eventually HC jobs.

That would be my DREAM for franchise

[Datninja619]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

Damn, I was afraid that might be the case... I already noticed that teams sign free agents and draft out of their scheme but I was hoping that they would just from them into it... So franchise is still fundamentally unchanged again.... Garbage!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I'd say that should be easily fixable though. Sounds the coding can be updated to just prioritize the scheme fit attribute.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Operation Sports mobile app

[JayD]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

I said it improved progression drastically. I didn't say it was the best progression system I'd ever seen. Did you not play Madden 18? Try examining the decisions the CPU made last year.



The user always has an advantage over the CPU. It's called a brain.

And frankly, no, I don't see it in this case. All of the evidence I see is that it progresses what's already highest, which in my testing, is the most efficient way progress players unless they're VERY close to being a scheme fit. Any more than 2 points, maybe 3, that's wasteful.

See the players I posted earlier. Closing the gap between archetypes takes at least twice the existing gap. So if you've got a 75 scheme vs. an 80 non-scheme, you're going to be raising the non-scheme as you raise the scheme fit. The best test case above was Leonard Fournette, who had a 2-1 ratio (note the rest weren't as favorable, so this is best case):

76/81
77/81
78/82
79/82
80/83
81/83
82/84
83/84
84/85
85/85

So 10 skill points to get a scheme fit. For a lot players, by the time they go up 10 points they've already missed most of their progression window. You could spend a season or two getting him to a scheme fit, or you could get him to a 91 non-scheme fit. You think the CPU should default to the dumb option?

My point was the extra XP the user receives with more scheme fit players.

[JayD]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

@adembroski You make some really good points about how the AI teams progresses their players.

I was wondering if you have any knowledge about whether or not the AI teams draft based on their scheme?

It would be reassuring to know that they take that into account when drafting.

They do not draft or sign free agents to fit their scheme.

[adembroski]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

They do not draft or sign free agents to fit their scheme.

What is supposed to be happening is they should be evaluating players based on what they're scheme is, but not specifically going after people because they're a scheme fit.

So, a team's scheme is Elusive- if Player A is an 85 rated Power Back and an 80 rated Elusive back, they'll take that guy over a 79 Elusive/78 Power because they're getting the better elusive back, even though he's a power back scheme fit.

How it should be designed is the CPU should estimate what rating that player should become when the team is expecting to be competitive.

So imagine that we build different AI modes for the CPU- Win Now (Patriots, Eagles), 3 Year Plan (49ers, Titans), 5 Year Plan (Browns, Dolphins). You're going to program the AI to estimate how much progression a given player will gain within the competitive time-frame. So a Win Now team will do exactly as I said above, but a rebuilding team will estimate, based on current overall, development trait, and whether or not they're a scheme fit, what their rating will be at the end of that time period. This is where you'll see teams sacrificing OVR now for scheme fit.

The problem is that's not a practical calculation under the current XP system. They simply have included way too many cancelling factors. The amount of XP gained is affected by age, the number of XP opportunities is affected by OVR, the number of milestones reached is affected by supporting cast, the number of XP required to level is affected by age and ovr. That needs some SERIOUS redesign to create a competent AI.

[triplechin]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

Hopefully they don't put that much effort into making XP work and just scrap it before more time is wasted. But I'm not holding my breath

[JayD]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

After doing an in depth sim using several coaches it does appear, for the most part, that the CPU is signing & drafting to their scheme, even when they switch teams. Im not sure if the update did anything or if using generated draft classes caused a different result but I like what im seeing.

[adembroski]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

Hopefully they don't put that much effort into making XP work and just scrap it before more time is wasted. But I'm not holding my breath

It wouldn't take that much effort, I'm just saying it would be drastically different. If I were doing it, I'd probably re-purpose the XP system since it's already there, but it would be completely unrecognizable from what it is now.

I did the progression for Madden 12 (and I'm proud to say the best sports game reviewer of the time, Bill Abner, said it was the best progression in Madden ever). It was very, very simple but it worked because it was mathematically predictable at a high level, but highly variable at a focused level. Effort was made to specifically engineer the results, not the process. The XP system in Madden now is built on what someone thought would be a good process. Thats backasswards design. One can see the XP system as a tool available to them, and design around results and make perfectly good use of it.

That said, it's left a bad taste in a lot of mouths, so a designer might consider scrapping it just to not carry that stink forward.

[TheDominator273]

Re: the CPU doesn't progress players based on scheme

The day XP gets scrapped will be a joyous day for us sim CFM players