JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

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  • JoshC1977
    All Star
    • Dec 2010
    • 11564

    #196
    Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

    You're in the kitchen prepping a meal and you've identified that you need 4 pans to complete the menu. You prep your meal and go about your merry way.

    A week later, you are in your kitchen about to prep the exact same meal as before. But this time, you only have three pans available. What happens?
    • It's going to take longer to make the meal - this is the primary "point"
    • Knowing it will take longer, you're going to change something about how you make the meal - this is the "counterpoint"


    Sliders are the same way....you make a modification to a slider, you modify some aspect of the game (the "point"). BUT, the CPU also changes it's behavior to adjust to that change (the "counterpoint").

    I've already spoken at-length in the OP about not introducing "Slider RNG" by heavily modifying gameplay sliders. And we're not going to here. Instead, I want to modify the CPU behavior (the "counterpoint") by making the smallest of gameplay slider changes. To do that, we're going to use a slider range of 49-51 for select sliders. These are subtle changes that don't have meaningful direct impacts, but can (in many cases) change the behavior of CPU-controlled players. Going back to the kitchen example, it would be like taking away your garlic press and forcing you to use a knife (it DOES change how you go about prepping things, but doesn't meaningfully change the time it takes to prep the meal).

    I think we'd all agree that the CPU controlled defenders attempt "hit stick" tackles way too often. What would make you attempt fewer big hits? What if you were better at tackling? If you were better at tackling, you wouldn't need to go for big hits as much. So, let's introduce our first "counterpoint" modification.

    User and CPU Tackling: 51 (in CFM sliders ONLY)

    To anthropromorphize a bit, the CPU-controlled defenders (on both sides) go, "Oh, I tackle better now...I don't need to hit stick so much". And this is exactly what happens; the variety in tackle types increases a lot. There are still big hits - but they are mixed-in with a lot of other animations. It actually lead to a lot of really cool animations that I had yet to see this year. Some other folks have also tested this out and have all reported similar outcomes. (Oh and someone will ask: do NOT touch the fumble slider to compensate! It will actually make matters much worse.)

    If we push the sliders out more beyond that range, the primary effects will quickly override the counterpoint. If I raise the TAK slider to 53, they may still use the hit stick less, but the TAK slider will now imbalance things from an outcome perspective ("Slider RNG") and lead to more big hits.

    I'm posting this now (and will update the OP) to introduce the concept of "counterpoint" and because it is a really nifty change in of itself. I'm actively working on "counterpoint" changes to other gameplay areas right now. As I feel confident with other changes, I will post them.
    Play the games you love, not the games you want to love.

    Comment

    • therizing02
      MVP
      • Apr 2003
      • 4176

      #197
      Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

      Originally posted by JoshC1977
      You're in the kitchen prepping a meal and you've identified that you need 4 pans to complete the menu. You prep your meal and go about your merry way.

      A week later, you are in your kitchen about to prep the exact same meal as before. But this time, you only have three pans available. What happens?
      • It's going to take longer to make the meal - this is the primary "point"
      • Knowing it will take longer, you're going to change something about how you make the meal - this is the "counterpoint"


      Sliders are the same way....you make a modification to a slider, you modify some aspect of the game (the "point"). BUT, the CPU also changes it's behavior to adjust to that change (the "counterpoint").

      I've already spoken at-length in the OP about not introducing "Slider RNG" by heavily modifying gameplay sliders. And we're not going to here. Instead, I want to modify the CPU behavior (the "counterpoint") by making the smallest of gameplay slider changes. To do that, we're going to use a slider range of 49-51 for select sliders. These are subtle changes that don't have meaningful direct impacts, but can (in many cases) change the behavior of CPU-controlled players. Going back to the kitchen example, it would be like taking away your garlic press and forcing you to use a knife (it DOES change how you go about prepping things, but doesn't meaningfully change the time it takes to prep the meal).

      I think we'd all agree that the CPU controlled defenders attempt "hit stick" tackles way too often. What would make you attempt fewer big hits? What if you were better at tackling? If you were better at tackling, you wouldn't need to go for big hits as much. So, let's introduce our first "counterpoint" modification.

      User and CPU Tackling: 51 (in CFM sliders ONLY)

      To anthropromorphize a bit, the CPU-controlled defenders (on both sides) go, "Oh, I tackle better now...I don't need to hit stick so much". And this is exactly what happens; the variety in tackle types increases a lot. There are still big hits - but they are mixed-in with a lot of other animations. It actually lead to a lot of really cool animations that I had yet to see this year. Some other folks have also tested this out and have all reported similar outcomes. (Oh and someone will ask: do NOT touch the fumble slider to compensate! It will actually make matters much worse.)

      If we push the sliders out more beyond that range, the primary effects will quickly override the counterpoint. If I raise the TAK slider to 53, they may still use the hit stick less, but the TAK slider will now imbalance things from an outcome perspective ("Slider RNG") and lead to more big hits.

      I'm posting this now (and will update the OP) to introduce the concept of "counterpoint" and because it is a really nifty change in of itself. I'm actively working on "counterpoint" changes to other gameplay areas right now. As I feel confident with other changes, I will post them.
      Thanks for the update. Been enjoying these "sliders" by playing all of the Week 1 games in Franchise. Some interesting results that I'll highlight later.

      This may be the first time the word "anthropromorphize" has been used at OS

      Comment

      • JoshC1977
        All Star
        • Dec 2010
        • 11564

        #198
        Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

        I did some clean-up work on the OP. I added a section on "counterpoint" and re-formatted the slider section. I added-in individual sliders now as we'll be looking to change some of them and I think, in general, it reads better.

        The "thread rules" and my "Thoughts on Franchise" sections have been moved to the second post in the thread.
        Play the games you love, not the games you want to love.

        Comment

        • EvilElf
          Rookie
          • Oct 2016
          • 63

          #199
          Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

          Image1565191822.708121.jpg


          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

          Comment

          • tdawg3782
            I hate you Norv
            • Nov 2003
            • 4803

            #200
            Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

            Not only are we getting more education on Madden sliders but our vocabulary is increasing as well lol.

            Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

            Comment

            • EvilElf
              Rookie
              • Oct 2016
              • 63

              #201
              Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

              Originally posted by tdawg3782
              Not only are we getting more education on Madden sliders but our vocabulary is increasing as well lol.

              Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
              The ironic thing here… I am following 2 OS threads right now and the other one is yours TDawg! Glad you got update seven done!

              when both of these sets are finalized I know my madden franchise will be ready to takeoff.

              Much love to both of you! 🤟

              Comment

              • Executor
                Pro
                • Aug 2012
                • 549

                #202
                Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                Originally posted by JoshC1977
                User and CPU Tackling: 51 (in CFM sliders ONLY)

                To anthropromorphize a bit, the CPU-controlled defenders (on both sides) go, "Oh, I tackle better now...I don't need to hit stick so much". And this is exactly what happens; the variety in tackle types increases a lot.
                Interesting idea, Josh. I was always thinking the exact opposite... Like when you lower tackling, the CPU goes "oh I suck at tackling so why even bother with big hits, let's instead make sure I wrap up properly and increas the chance I actually bring the guy down".

                Can't wait to hear what you see with this setup the more you play!
                Montreal Canadiens
                Minnesota Timberwolves
                Green Bay Packers
                Marshall Thundering Herd
                Los Angeles Dodgers

                "Greater than I, lesser than I, what does it matter to my functioning?"
                (Steve Perry: Shadows of the Empire)

                Comment

                • Armor and Sword
                  The Lama
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 21798

                  #203
                  Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                  Originally posted by JoshC1977
                  You're in the kitchen prepping a meal and you've identified that you need 4 pans to complete the menu. You prep your meal and go about your merry way.

                  A week later, you are in your kitchen about to prep the exact same meal as before. But this time, you only have three pans available. What happens?
                  • It's going to take longer to make the meal - this is the primary "point"
                  • Knowing it will take longer, you're going to change something about how you make the meal - this is the "counterpoint"


                  Sliders are the same way....you make a modification to a slider, you modify some aspect of the game (the "point"). BUT, the CPU also changes it's behavior to adjust to that change (the "counterpoint").

                  I've already spoken at-length in the OP about not introducing "Slider RNG" by heavily modifying gameplay sliders. And we're not going to here. Instead, I want to modify the CPU behavior (the "counterpoint") by making the smallest of gameplay slider changes. To do that, we're going to use a slider range of 49-51 for select sliders. These are subtle changes that don't have meaningful direct impacts, but can (in many cases) change the behavior of CPU-controlled players. Going back to the kitchen example, it would be like taking away your garlic press and forcing you to use a knife (it DOES change how you go about prepping things, but doesn't meaningfully change the time it takes to prep the meal).

                  I think we'd all agree that the CPU controlled defenders attempt "hit stick" tackles way too often. What would make you attempt fewer big hits? What if you were better at tackling? If you were better at tackling, you wouldn't need to go for big hits as much. So, let's introduce our first "counterpoint" modification.

                  User and CPU Tackling: 51 (in CFM sliders ONLY)

                  To anthropromorphize a bit, the CPU-controlled defenders (on both sides) go, "Oh, I tackle better now...I don't need to hit stick so much". And this is exactly what happens; the variety in tackle types increases a lot. There are still big hits - but they are mixed-in with a lot of other animations. It actually lead to a lot of really cool animations that I had yet to see this year. Some other folks have also tested this out and have all reported similar outcomes. (Oh and someone will ask: do NOT touch the fumble slider to compensate! It will actually make matters much worse.)

                  If we push the sliders out more beyond that range, the primary effects will quickly override the counterpoint. If I raise the TAK slider to 53, they may still use the hit stick less, but the TAK slider will now imbalance things from an outcome perspective ("Slider RNG") and lead to more big hits.

                  I'm posting this now (and will update the OP) to introduce the concept of "counterpoint" and because it is a really nifty change in of itself. I'm actively working on "counterpoint" changes to other gameplay areas right now. As I feel confident with other changes, I will post them.


                  I am just curious about if you will see drastic improvement with fumbles vs Enforcers. That is the primary concern for me personally. I am having no issues with fumbles on default 50 vs non enforcers.

                  It is when you face that Super Star trait things are completely arcade. So I have tested raising the fumble slider to 70 and found great results.

                  But if tackle at 51 solves that primary issue....and make no mistake it is a problem, and we open up more animations (I get great animation with tackle at 45 BTW) I rather go that route than raising the fumble slider to 70 every time I face an enforcer or if I have an enforcer raising that slider to 70 for the CPU.
                  Now Playing on PS5:
                  CFB 26 Hurricanes/Fresno State Year 2
                  MLB The Show 25 - 2025 Yankees Year 1
                  MLB The Show 25 1985 Yankees Year 1
                  Oblivion Remaster



                  Follow me on Twitch
                  https://www.twitch.tv/armorandsword

                  Comment

                  • JoshC1977
                    All Star
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 11564

                    #204
                    Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                    Originally posted by tdawg3782
                    Not only are we getting more education on Madden sliders but our vocabulary is increasing as well lol.
                    LOL, That's what happens when I post updates during the work day...my brain is in 'work mode'.
                    =========================
                    On a different note, I will be adding blurbs to each slider as I go through and test them out. In some cases, this will explain why I made a change. In others, I may go into detail as to why I left a setting alone. If any of you followed my MLB slider thread this year, it will look similar to that.

                    So, we got the big hits resolved. I also have a potential fix to the lack of pass rush but it's a setting tied directly to the next phase...which is to be focused on the passing game. This is an intricate balancing act. I began this testing last night and have already made some very interesting observations - but I have yet to tie everything together. Remember - we're also fighting some glitchy animations right now (such as DBs turning the wrong way) and some slider configurations seem to introduce these glitches more than others.
                    Play the games you love, not the games you want to love.

                    Comment

                    • muelly
                      Pro
                      • Apr 2005
                      • 567

                      #205
                      Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                      Originally posted by Armor and Sword
                      I am just curious about if you will see drastic improvement with fumbles vs Enforcers. That is the primary concern for me personally. I am having no issues with fumbles on default 50 vs non enforcers.

                      It is when you face that Super Star trait things are completely arcade. So I have tested raising the fumble slider to 70 and found great results.

                      But if tackle at 51 solves that primary issue....and make no mistake it is a problem, and we open up more animations (I get great animation with tackle at 45 BTW) I rather go that route than raising the fumble slider to 70 every time I face an enforcer or if I have an enforcer raising that slider to 70 for the CPU.


                      Each day that goes by I am more confused as to what slider set I should use. I am still torn between all-madden and all pro as well. I feel all madden challenges my offense more but the defense side of it all is where I absolutely get destroyed.

                      Comment

                      • JoshC1977
                        All Star
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 11564

                        #206
                        Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                        Originally posted by Armor and Sword
                        I am just curious about if you will see drastic improvement with fumbles vs Enforcers. That is the primary concern for me personally. I am having no issues with fumbles on default 50 vs non enforcers.

                        It is when you face that Super Star trait things are completely arcade. So I have tested raising the fumble slider to 70 and found great results.

                        But if tackle at 51 solves that primary issue....and make no mistake it is a problem, and we open up more animations (I get great animation with tackle at 45 BTW) I rather go that route than raising the fumble slider to 70 every time I face an enforcer or if I have an enforcer raising that slider to 70 for the CPU.
                        That's going to be the million dollar question. I mean, I'm using an Enforcer (Collins) on my Redskins and I haven't seen any issues at all (even before this change). But, I also believe that others have seen them (and in scenarios where lack of user skill is not in-play - such as a CPU defender on their team hitting a CPU RB on the other team).

                        The problem, as I see it, of lowering the TAK slider is while it does soften things, it doesn't "nerf" the big hitters enough (because they still have that tendency to go big on the hits). That's why I'm taking this different approach and am trying to modify JUST the tendencies versus the actual effects. Raising the FUM slider to a value equal to or above the TAK starts bringing back the "hit hard" tendency (I saw it even at 51 FUM) - so unless you go extremely high on the FUM slider, the effect will get 'washed out'.

                        Hopefully some of that makes sense....it did in my head...not sure how well that translated
                        Play the games you love, not the games you want to love.

                        Comment

                        • Armor and Sword
                          The Lama
                          • Sep 2010
                          • 21798

                          #207
                          Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                          Originally posted by muelly
                          Each day that goes by I am more confused as to what slider set I should use. I am still torn between all-madden and all pro as well. I feel all madden challenges my offense more but the defense side of it all is where I absolutely get destroyed.
                          All-Madden has never worked for me except for on Madden 25.

                          I have always played on All-Pro and feel the game plays fair.

                          Unfortunately I have always had to play with house rules to make the playing field balanced vs the CPU. Quite simply.....the CPU AI is not great on Madden nor has it ever been. Now I do think we have seen some meaningful improvement the last couple of games (19 and 20) and on 16 it was also solid. 17 and 18 were highly forgettable games for me.

                          So it really comes down to self control. Do not abuse certain plays, using your entire playbook, limiting your blitz packages unless you are dictated by the CPU's success to start bringing more pressure etc.

                          On All-Madden the CPU can be simply unstoppable on offense....always. And I am then also forced to switch, and use my full array of "stick skills" which is not the way I play Madden. I love player ratings to dictate the results coupled with whomever I control. I love no switch defense. I can't play no switch on All-Madden.

                          So it all comes down to what play style you have and what kind of game you want.

                          If I switch....I can play All-Madden. But I hate switching.
                          Now Playing on PS5:
                          CFB 26 Hurricanes/Fresno State Year 2
                          MLB The Show 25 - 2025 Yankees Year 1
                          MLB The Show 25 1985 Yankees Year 1
                          Oblivion Remaster



                          Follow me on Twitch
                          https://www.twitch.tv/armorandsword

                          Comment

                          • muelly
                            Pro
                            • Apr 2005
                            • 567

                            #208
                            Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                            Originally posted by Armor and Sword
                            All-Madden has never worked for me except for on Madden 25.

                            I have always played on All-Pro and feel the game plays fair.

                            Unfortunately I have always had to play with house rules to make the playing field balanced vs the CPU. Quite simply.....the CPU AI is not great on Madden nor has it ever been. Now I do think we have seen some meaningful improvement the last couple of games (19 and 20) and on 16 it was also solid. 17 and 18 were highly forgettable games for me.

                            So it really comes down to self control. Do not abuse certain plays, using your entire playbook, limiting your blitz packages unless you are dictated by the CPU's success to start bringing more pressure etc.

                            On All-Madden the CPU can be simply unstoppable on offense....always. And I am then also forced to switch, and use my full array of "stick skills" which is not the way I play Madden. I love player ratings to dictate the results coupled with whomever I control. I love no switch defense. I can't play no switch on All-Madden.

                            So it all comes down to what play style you have and what kind of game you want.

                            If I switch....I can play All-Madden. But I hate switching.
                            Your set thus far has played fair on AP. You're right though you can't abuse things you know that will often work, the same can be said on AM too. My main issue with AP is it's not difficult to complete 70-80% your passes whereas AM drops this to 60-70% it feels. Defensively the game needs work that it appears sliders can't fully fix. Ignoring the fumbles the pass coverage is a mess, will my corner make a play on the ball, the receiver or will he continue his running motion ignoring there is a play to be made.


                            Last night I played a game vs Raiders


                            Rodgers (me) 24-34 70% 340 3 td 1 int 119.7 qbr
                            Carr 38-50 76% 475 3 td 1 int 116.6 qbr


                            Late in the game Kevin King got beat for a cheap 80 yard score to Brown so that skewed the yardage some. 37/49 395 2td 1 int prior.


                            Perhaps my commenting that I can complete a high % has more to do with using Rodgers though as well.

                            Comment

                            • edgevoice
                              MVP
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1199

                              #209
                              Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                              Originally posted by Armor and Sword
                              I am just curious about if you will see drastic improvement with fumbles vs Enforcers. That is the primary concern for me personally. I am having no issues with fumbles on default 50 vs non enforcers.

                              It is when you face that Super Star trait things are completely arcade. So I have tested raising the fumble slider to 70 and found great results.

                              But if tackle at 51 solves that primary issue....and make no mistake it is a problem, and we open up more animations (I get great animation with tackle at 45 BTW) I rather go that route than raising the fumble slider to 70 every time I face an enforcer or if I have an enforcer raising that slider to 70 for the CPU.
                              I absolutely loathe adjusting player traits, or in this case, X Factors. However, on All Pro default, I fumbled 3 times in 1 half due to an enforcer tackler. Each time, I promise you I was covering the ball. I am seriously considering removing this trait in my CFM, since defeating Superstar X Factor and then reassigning the X Factor usually reassigns them as "Secure Tackler" instead.

                              I've been getting my sliders worked out by repeatedly playing 3 quarters of my 3rd preseason game. I'm also waiting to see if a patch to address pass coverage, QB dropping back in circles and poor CPU end-of-game clock management is dropped before starting my season. I did see a tweet yesterday stating that the devs are looking at the fumble frequency. I personally only have fumble issues with the "Enforcer" trait.

                              Comment

                              • bucknut7
                                Pro
                                • Jul 2007
                                • 964

                                #210
                                Re: JoshC1977's Madden 20 CFM-only Sliders (User vs CPU Only)

                                Hey Josh, been about a week since I last checked these forums. Lot's of negativity on OS, and don't want that to cloud my opinion of a game that I'm genuinely loving.

                                It looks like you changed the OP to move fatigue and threshold from 52 back down to 50. Any explanation for this change?

                                Comment

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