Madden Serenity

[MLBfanatic97]

Re: Madden Serenity

Dear EA,
Hear my pleas.
I loved MVP Baseball.
I play 05 (I gots my PS2 )
But Madden has fallen off the deep end.
And I don't even play Madden very much.
If I know this, and the newest version of madden I have is Madden 11 on the Wii, then this has to set off some sign that you guys over there are messing up. Please make franchise mode deeper. Throw in the weekly preparation option that 2K5 had. Please use your ESPN license and include Boomer, and Jaws, and Wingo, the whole gang. Sportscenter and NFL Live anyone? Please update your stadium builder (and if they have sorry. Like i said. Madden 11 on the Wii).
Convince me to buy a PS3 only to have Madden.
Maybe you have all this stuff in 13.
And if you don't, please work on it for Madden 14.
All this complaining about Madden is making me want to become a video game designer/technician, or whatever you call it, just to go down to EA to fix Madden. And I'm 14.
Sincerely,
Future Head Game Designer for Madden

[roadman]

Re: Madden Serenity

Dear EA,
Hear my pleas.
I loved MVP Baseball.
I play 05 (I gots my PS2 )
But Madden has fallen off the deep end.
And I don't even play Madden very much.
If I know this, and the newest version of madden I have is Madden 11 on the Wii, then this has to set off some sign that you guys over there are messing up. Please make franchise mode deeper. Throw in the weekly preparation option that 2K5 had. Please use your ESPN license and include Boomer, and Jaws, and Wingo, the whole gang. Sportscenter and NFL Live anyone? Please update your stadium builder (and if they have sorry. Like i said. Madden 11 on the Wii).
Convince me to buy a PS3 only to have Madden.
Maybe you have all this stuff in 13.
And if you don't, please work on it for Madden 14.
All this complaining about Madden is making me want to become a video game designer/technician, or whatever you call it, just to go down to EA to fix Madden. And I'm 14.
Sincerely,
Future Head Game Designer for Madden

hahaha, love the humor, welcome aboard.

Wingo is in the game, so, that will be a plus. We'll find out more next Tuesday.

[BezO]

Re: Madden Serenity

Hmm, I don't know about that. I remember dropping back 20+ yards w/ the QB dating back to Madden '95 when I was just a pup. It could've only have been so realistic.

More recently, I can't think of any last gen Madden that's more realistic than what we have now. You could say footwork and locomotion were better tuned then, but then I could raise you OL/DL interaction and while it's not to 2K's level, it's better than what we had last gen.

I stick by the assertion that realism was never Madden's wheelhouse. I think it is now gearing towards realism and will continue to do so, but historically, it hasn't. It's always been about that fun/realism balance.

I'm not saying it was more realistic than now. I'm saying it was the beacon of realism in it's day. Madden made it's name by being the most realistic game available up until 2004 or so.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden Serenity

This is tough to address because this mystical Madden doesn't exist. It would have to be available & compared.

I agree with the control element. Hell, I'm not that type of player & still want to control what goes on. But...

Penalties are under player control. Sure, some of them would seem random, like holding on a kick return. But penalties can be controlled to some degree. Putting DBs in the best position curbs PI. Quicker passes can curb holding for lesser o-linemen. Both offsides & holding are about the snap count & pass rush success.

Most bad snaps are not random. Centers make bad snaps trying to get to blocks quicker because they've been getting beat. QBs pull out early because they've been getting hit. Gurode hit Romo in the face because he's an idiot and would forget the count.

I think tourney players would be better at timing routes than most. Just like IRL, it's just practice. No, they won't be able to turn an out into a seam by throwing early, but they can control the timing & hit a WR on his break. They can throw the WR open. Pump fakes, etc. Folks fell in love with rocket catching because it was available. No one was asking for this "feature" before it was discovered. And user catching doesn't go away because of route based passing.

Nanos are just another product of using the tools provided. No one was requesting any of this. These methods were discovered. Folks loved Madden prior to their discovery. There's a realistic version of this in this mystical Madden. Overload blitzing. Zone blitzing. Delayed blitzes. They'd lab the hell out of those & still kick most folks a**.

Zig zagging... same. Replace that will realistic footwork & they'd still juke defenders. And it would look prettier too.

I think they have fun playing a video football game & competing. I don't believe that would change just because the game was more realistic.

Players moving like boats? Relatively, sure. But I think 2K could've made quick players quicker. I also think you replace unrealistic fun with realistic fun. As it stands, you can't do a lot of moves in Madden. The juke button isn't a juke. It's a cut. With realistic footwork, you'd be able to juke. You could double jab & burst. Neither of these were represented in 2K. As it is, you can't spin OFF tackles. Imagine if you could.

Looks like Madden is going with more realistic reactions this year, so...

I don't remember a lot of dropped passes in 2K, but I'll concede. But it's not out of anyone's control. Like IRL, they'd just throw to their better WRs more. And they'd have to be better with their timing & location, which I'd bet they would be. Again, I think it's just trading an unrealistic element with a realistic but controllable one.

Sure it was. It was the most realistic game out until 2K got its stride. Personally, I didn't like 2K more until 2K5.

As for sales, there are other factors. Not sure when the first 2K dropped, but Madden had a big headstart. They also had a bigger marketing budget. Like most products, only a few customers actually look for the best. There's a reason companies put so much into marketing. I can tell you quite a few places that make a better burger for the same price as a big mac, but that doesn't stop McDonalds from selling more burgers than everyone else.

I don't doubt tourney players would still put in the time and be really good at Madden, but I think they would hit their boards and complain just as loudly as anyone else if a lot of this stuff was added to the game. I think about what TNT said about qb vision and how he hated it to the point he quit buying Madden and then wrote a huge letter to the developers explaining why it had to be removed.

I think you would find similar reactions from the tourney guys if the developers added pass interference and illegal contact for example. Sure, technically it's in their control to avoid the calls but it wouldn't allow them to play the game the way they want. They would soon be hitting their boards complaining like sim guys did about not having PI in the game.

Some things they would probably be ok with. I'm sure you're right about them finding realistic blitzes if 1/4 and 1/2 slides and double team blocking eliminated the ridiculous ones. But penalties, the pulling guys off routes and then running back to make receptions, the zig zag running type stuff they would soon be complaining the game isn't responsive enough and it needs to be changed back.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Madden Serenity

I don't doubt tourney players would still put in the time and be really good at Madden, but I think they would hit their boards and complain just as loudly as anyone else if a lot of this stuff was added to the game. I think about what TNT said about qb vision and how he hated it to the point he quit buying Madden and then wrote a huge letter to the developers explaining why it had to be removed.

I think you would find similar reactions from the tourney guys if the developers added pass interference and illegal contact for example. Sure, technically it's in their control to avoid the calls but it wouldn't allow them to play the game the way they want. They would soon be hitting their boards complaining like sim guys did about not having PI in the game.

Some things they would probably be ok with. I'm sure you're right about them finding realistic blitzes if 1/4 and 1/2 slides and double team blocking eliminated the ridiculous ones. But penalties, the pulling guys off routes and then running back to make receptions, the zig zag running type stuff they would soon be complaining the game isn't responsive enough and it needs to be changed back.

This is where Tiburon has failed. Look at a game Like The Show. They had continued to evolve the control scheme. You have many different options for hitting and pitching as well as fielding, throwing, base running.

Every time they had added.....they have kept the other options. Some people love Zone Analog Hitting, some love timed....the point is if you have launched a new control feature and you have people who love it....then keep it as an option you can toggle on and off!!!

I remember the vision cone.....I did not like it at all. On Madden 2007...I had the option to toggle it off. Problem solved. But others who loved it....still had it.

Don't just give in to the lynch mob mentality. Try to stay flexible and keep evolving the game while keeping those that actually liked your new innovation or classic traditional control scheme happy.

It is a simple concept that other sports games have seemed to understand (NBA2K also has different slider pre-sets for different players, sim, default, casual)

What a concept!

[roadman]

Re: Madden Serenity

I just wanted to point out that if TNT had any influence on QB vision being taken out, it might have been a little influence.

Back in time, at Maddenmania, posters were very much against the Vision Cone. I can imagine if MM was, so, would be other websites as well.

It was a polarizing option.

[Reed1417]

Re: Madden Serenity

i've been playing Madden for a long time since i believe 95 on the SNES. i want Madden to be good so bad just like everyone else here does. the past few years have been rough with last year for me being the worst in terms of Madden games. i try to stay positive about Madden because like i said i want it to be good so bad. just get the gameplay as close to realistic as possible.

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden Serenity

I just wanted to point out that if TNT had any influence on QB vision being taken out, it might have been a little influence.

Back in time, at Maddenmania, posters were very much against the Vision Cone. I can imagine if MM was, so, would be other websites as well.

It was a polarizing option.

Yeah, I think people give TNT too much credit for the dismissal of the vision cone. It probably didn't help that he sort of portrayed it that way, but I don't for a second think his essay directly lead to the vision cone going away.

[PacMan3000]

Re: Madden Serenity

This is a really interesting discussion. Here are my thoughts.

I think the biggest issue is that the developers vision and the gamers' visions are very, very different. Here's a specific example.

If you check out Chase's thread about wanting ideas for the football commentary, Chase said he believes storylines are important to Madden, and he wanted board members here to suggest storylines for their team for Madden 13.

I threw in some for the Browns, but told him (along with others) that I think focusing so much time on storylines is kind of a waste, because whether you're playing Play Now games, involved in an online matchup, or are finishing the first season of your franchise, storylines get old. It's just the nature of the beast.

I suggested, and others too, that they focus more on getting player names into the game, having the commentators talk about what your player did last week, compare his stats this year to his stats last year, discuss how injuries are affecting your team, or how your squad has pulled itself out of a slump.

In effect, discuss what's actually going on with and around your team, instead of canned commentary that discusses Manning vs. Manning, or brings up the fact that Jay Cutler used to play for the Broncos whenever he visits Denver.

Chase simply disagreed (well, from what I recall, he agreed but still firmly felt storylines are the way to go). Fair enough--we all can't always agree. But I think that's just a microcosm of how Madden works and why fans get disappointed. The developers ultimately do what they want to do (or what they're told to do), not what the fans who actually pay for and play the game want to see and hear.

Yes, every so often, they'll add hand towels or fix the scoring banner to show they're listening. But far too often (every year, in fact) I hear "Well, we just couldn't get to that in time" or "we don't have the resources to fix that" or "well, coding this or that takes too much time, so we couldn't get that in." Frankly, I think it's a defeatist mentality.

You can never please anybody all of the time, but let's also be honest--this isn't rocket science here, either. The issues with gameplay, graphics, commentary, franchise--whatever--are well known. It's simply about whether or not the developers, Tiburon, and EA want to address them or not.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden Serenity

This is a really interesting discussion. Here are my thoughts.

I think the biggest issue is that the developers vision and the gamers' visions are very, very different. Here's a specific example.

If you check out Chase's thread about wanting ideas for the football commentary, Chase said he believes storylines are important to Madden, and he wanted board members here to suggest storylines for their team for Madden 13.

I threw in some for the Browns, but told him (along with others) that I think focusing so much time on storylines is kind of a waste, because whether you're playing Play Now games, involved in an online matchup, or are finishing the first season of your franchise, storylines get old. It's just the nature of the beast.

I suggested, and others too, that they focus more on getting player names into the game, having the commentators talk about what your player did last week, compare his stats this year to his stats last year, discuss how injuries are affecting your team, or how your squad has pulled itself out of a slump.

In effect, discuss what's actually going on with and around your team, instead of canned commentary that discusses Manning vs. Manning, or brings up the fact that Jay Cutler used to play for the Broncos whenever he visits Denver.

Chase simply disagreed (well, from what I recall, he agreed but still firmly felt storylines are the way to go). Fair enough--we all can't always agree. But I think that's just a microcosm of how Madden works and why fans get disappointed. The developers ultimately do what they want to do (or what they're told to do), not what the fans who actually pay for and play the game want to see and hear.

Yes, every so often, they'll add hand towels or fix the scoring banner to show they're listening. But far too often (every year, in fact) I hear "Well, we just couldn't get to that in time" or "we don't have the resources to fix that" or "well, coding this or that takes too much time, so we couldn't get that in." Frankly, I think it's a defeatist mentality.

You can never please anybody all of the time, but let's also be honest--this isn't rocket science here, either. The issues with gameplay, graphics, commentary, franchise--whatever--are well known. It's simply about whether or not the developers, Tiburon, and EA want to address them or not.

I tend to agree here. I just think it's a way of thinking that seems to be absent from Tiburon. For example, I didn't hear one mention of an idea that they could have done. Maybe they could have something like dynamic commentary. Doesn't NBA 2k12 have that? If you played a play now game, the commentators could reference the most recently played game in real life, or some occurrences that happened in the front office to comment on a newly acquired player. This is that "out of the box" thinking that never shows it's face. They are simply trying to add competent commentary to a 2013 game.

The other thing I'll mention - I know a lot of guys mention Chase and AJ as sharp guys who are now "developers" at Tiburon. One thing to realize is that they are not developers. They are designers. They do not write any code. They are not implementing features. The design is only as good as the implementation. Those guys can come up with great ideas, but if the implementation is poor, it's all for nothing. The implementation has been poor so far, but there hasn't exactly been any groundbreaking ideas - or I should say, none that actually make their way into the product.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Serenity

Actually Big all they have to do is rely on one of those previous definitions of sim and say they are being authentic. They could say, authenticity is about ratings and stats and not be lying. They might be being deceptive, but being deceptive is not lying. If a friend ask me to hang out and I say nahhh I'm going out of town. I live in Nashville and I go over to Hendersonville, which is about 15 mins away or I go over to Gallatin, while I'm still in TN technically I did go out of town. If my friend takes that to mean I'm going to Alabama, California, Florida, that's on him/her, not me. In such a case I was deceptive but I did not lie.

I think the level of realism promoted to be intended to be in next-gen Madden by EA/Tiburon exceeds the vague interpretations of your examples. Here is just a few statements made by various developers for next-gen Madden over the years.

David Ortiz- "With the advent of Next-Gen technology and our partnership with the NFL, we are able to bring to life the most realistic professional football experience possible. In Madden NFL 07, you will now be immersed like never before. While you are on the line, you will hear actual NFL players’ voices, celebrating and calling plays while their actions on the field are exactly as they are in a real game. Graphically, we have drastically increased detail of the players and the stadiums. Just as an example, you will now see the individual blades of grass on the field, as it slowly degrades, depending on where the action on the field is occurring. These are just a couple things that would have never been possible without the new hardware. This is an exciting time for the Madden franchise because the hardware is young and as we continue to learn more about it we will continue to make Madden truly the most realistic sports game, ever created." http://www.gamezone.com/editorials/m...z-phil-frazier

Ian Cummings- "The goal at the end of the day is a realistic simulation that gives you the feeling where every play feels dynamic and different with fresh animations and realistic reactions. You guys shouldn't have to worry about what technologies need to be used to get there - you should just know that end goal." http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2039793213

Phil Frazier- "There are a couple of games that I draw inspiration from. First is within our label – FIFA. They have worked over the years to provide an amazing core football (soccer) experience and that focus has helped them to become the #1 selling sports title on the planet. Their core gameplay engine is amazing and provides an incredibly fun experience each and every year. I hope to be able to provide a core experience as polished as theirs in the coming years as we continue to refine our engine and eliminate problem areas." http://gomadden.com/news/footballgam...features-more/

Cam Weber- "First and foremost, we need to deliver an amazing simulation football gameplay experience on both of our franchises. In other words, our fans want to see fluid, realistic player movement and deep football AI and behaviors on the field. This includes what players are doing between the whistles in the middle of a play, and how they behave in our pre- and post-play moments as well." http://www.operationsports.com/featu...-gm-cam-weber/

There is nothing 2k5, 2k8, or any other sports game has ever done that the existing "engine" in Madden can't accomplish. We simply have to get around too it......

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2042180703

Now, those seem to be pretty clear intentions, not some vague ambiguous claims that can be technically applied to next-gen Madden's final products. To Roadman's point, maybe this new team will finally produce a next-gen Madden as advertised but my point is EA/Tiburon has been promoting Madden as intended to be that game for the last 6-7 years. So that's at least part of the reason why there is so much much repeated negativity and disappointment about the next-gen versions of the game.

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden Serenity

The other thing I'll mention - I know a lot of guys mention Chase and AJ as sharp guys who are now "developers" at Tiburon. One thing to realize is that they are not developers. They are designers. They do not write any code. They are not implementing features.

Thanks for re-emphasizing this as I've know you've had to state this in the past. Thus why I don't get all hot and bothered when someone brings up the below:

...AJ(Adembroski) posted that the Madden engine in M12 could accomplish anything NFL2k did or something along those lines, so with all due respect to Rgiles, again there is someone at EA/Tibiron, not some random gamer, setting expectations for Madden.

And that's not a shot at AJ neither -- I told the man personally I'm proud of him when I saw him last and I certainly hope he finds continued success @ Tiburon. But just because he's on the inside doesn't mean he has the authority to set expectations and honestly, I don't believe that was his intent when he stated the above anyway.

Carry on...

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Serenity

Thanks for re-emphasizing this as I've know you've had to state this in the past. Thus why I don't get all hot and bothered when someone brings up the below:



And that's not a shot at AJ neither -- I told the man personally I'm proud of him when I saw him last and I certainly hope he finds continued success @ Tiburon. But just because he's on the inside doesn't mean he has the authority to set expectations and honestly, I don't believe that was his intent when he stated the above anyway.

Carry on...

Just for clarification, this thread was intended to ask What do you think of the job EA/Tiburon does with setting gamer expectations for NFL representation in Madden and what effect do those expectations have on your POV towards the game? and I believe what Madden developers, designers, etc state pertaining to their perceived goal of the game, is relevant to EA/Tiburon setting gamer expectations.Maybe for you whatever is claimed by EA/Tiburon about Madden doesn't effect your POV towards the game and that's fine but it does mine. I also think it effects the POV of other gamers that have been very disappointed with the final product in comparison to what is promoted and makes EA/Tiburon partly responsible for the repeated negativity towards next-gen Madden.

I am not trying to squash other discussions relevant to that question in the OP, I am just pointing out the intent behind me quoting things stated by people involved with producing next-gen Madden.

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden Serenity

Maybe for you whatever is claimed by EA/Tiburon about Madden doesn't effect your POV towards the game and that's fine but it does mine.

Cool beans.

Does Domino's pizza taste the best now b/c they've re-invented themselves and use all-new ingredients? Should they market their pizza as second-rate so that your expectations aren't so high when you get the pizza to your kitchen counter?

Should Audi market their vehicles as second rate to BMW & Mercedes since BMW & Mercedes apparently dominate the luxury vehicle market? How would that impact the perception of their product? Or, should they continue emphasizing that their cars are just as good (or better) as those other makers despite those other cars being more powerful under the hood?

Hell, BMW just unveiled their new 7 series and want you to believe there's been sweeping changes from the previous model. Some could argue that the changes aren't all that dazzling, but I sure as hell bet BMW doesn't market it that way when the 2013 models hit the showroom.

Obviously, this all comes back to marketing. It would seem to me that you're attempting to hold EA to a marketing standard that isn't met by just about every business who sells consumer products. They want the most business possible.

In some respects, that's what LBz, Road, Taz, KJCheeze, and others have been stating again and again in this thread.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Serenity

Cool beans.

Does Domino's pizza taste the best now b/c they've re-invented themselves and use all-new ingredients? Should they market their pizza as second-rate so that your expectations aren't so high when you get the pizza to your kitchen counter?

Should Audi market their vehicles as second rate to BMW & Mercedes since BMW & Mercedes apparently dominate the luxury vehicle market? How would that impact the perception of their product? Or, should they continue emphasizing that their cars are just as good (or better) as those other makers despite those other cars being more powerful under the hood?

Hell, BMW just unveiled their new 7 series and want you to believe there's been sweeping changes from the previous model. Some could argue that the changes aren't all that dazzling, but I sure as hell bet BMW doesn't market it that way when the 2013 models hit the showroom.

Obviously, this all comes back to marketing. It would seem to me that you're attempting to hold EA to a marketing standard that isn't met by just about every business who sells consumer products. They want the most business possible.

In some respects, that's what LBz, Road, Taz, KJCheeze, and others have been stating again and again in this thread.

To me what EA/Tiburon has been doing concerning promoting Madden goes beyond simply marketing the game and I have stated that again and again as well. I offered up what I believe is a sufficient analogy to illustrate my point in post #70 on page 7 of this thread.

In that post, I also stated what I keep saying is, EA/Tiburon should either promote Madden according to what they intend the final product to be or everyone not being some how enriched through these misleading Madden promotions should stop defending EA/Tiburon from the understandably negative backlash.

I really don't know how to clarify what I am trying to say any better than that.