Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

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  • Jistic
    Hall Of Fame
    • Mar 2003
    • 16405

    #106
    Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

    Originally posted by feeq14
    Vinnie had very minimal sucess as a qb wins wise he was a journeyman who made it to like 1 probow. dont compare him with moon
    If you're going to now paint Moon as a winner, you'd better find a new argument. When it counted, 3-7 in the playoffs, actually has the same amount post season wins as Vinny.

    He's being put in for career achievement numbers wise, period. Moon was anything but a winner. In that respect he was viewed back then, much how Peyton Manning is now.
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    • feeq14
      MVP
      • Jun 2004
      • 3526

      #107
      Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

      Originally posted by Jistic
      If you're going to now paint Moon as a winner, you'd better find a new argument. When it counted, 3-7 in the playoffs, actually has the same amount post season wins as Vinny.

      He's being put in for career achievement numbers wise, period. Moon was anything but a winner. In that respect he was viewed back then, much how Peyton Manning is now.
      Was he a huge winner no but dont compare him to Testaverde who didnt even make it to more than what 3 playoff games as a starter, seldom made it to the probowl, was labled a first round buts etc

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      • Jistic
        Hall Of Fame
        • Mar 2003
        • 16405

        #108
        Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

        Originally posted by feeq14
        Was he a huge winner no but dont compare him to Testaverde who didnt even make it to more than what 3 playoff games as a starter, seldom made it to the probowl, was labled a first round buts etc
        Vinny went to 6 playoff games with 3 wins. Moon only went to 4 more playoff games, also with 3 wins.

        Moon's credentials make this a 'lifetime achievement award' because of his total statistics. Vinny is in virtually the same boat.

        IN the end to me Moon was a very good QB, no doubt. In a system that was made to put up HUGE passing numbers. He never showed to be an exceptional leader, or an ability to win the big games. Stats alone, of course he's amongst the best. But to me context is everything, raw numbers aren't.
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        • Rocky
          All Star
          • Jul 2002
          • 6896

          #109
          Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

          If Moon's not a HOFer, Peyton isnt either.
          "Maybe I can't win. But to beat me, he's going to have to kill me. And to kill me, he's gonna have to have the heart to stand in front of me. And to do that, he's got to be willing to die himself. I don't know if he's ready to do that."
          -Rocky Balboa

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          • billmatic
            Treble Complete
            • Nov 2004
            • 7365

            #110
            Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

            Moon was named to 9 pro bowls. So, at least he was consistently recognized as one of the top QB's in the league. Testaverde made it to, what, 2? The same cannot be said for him.

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            • Vince
              Bow for Bau
              • Aug 2002
              • 26017

              #111
              Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

              Originally posted by Rocky
              If Moon's not a HOFer, Peyton isnt either.

              Then virutally any QB with great stats and no rings means they aren't HOF's, thus, Trent Dilfer=Hall of Famer.
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              • SportsTop
                The Few. The Proud.
                • Jul 2003
                • 6716

                #112
                Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                Originally posted by Vinceanity2k3
                Then virutally any QB with great stats and no rings means they aren't HOF's, thus, Trent Dilfer=Hall of Famer.
                Ummm....okay. I think you were reading into his post a bit too much. He was making a counterpoint to an earlier observation.
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                • Vince
                  Bow for Bau
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 26017

                  #113
                  Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                  Originally posted by Squint
                  Ummm....okay. I think you were reading into his post a bit too much. He was making a counterpoint to an earlier observation.
                  Ummm, yeah I know that. I'm guessing that probably wasn't his belief, but was just saying the same standards should apply to Peyton, if Warren would be deemed as not HOF worthy.

                  My post was SARCASTIC.
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                  • feeq14
                    MVP
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 3526

                    #114
                    Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                    Originally posted by billmatic
                    Moon was named to 9 pro bowls. So, at least he was consistently recognized as one of the top QB's in the league. Testaverde made it to, what, 2? The same cannot be said for him.
                    Testaverde played on some very poor teams, he was never considered an elite qb amongst his peers even playing at the same time as moon. at no point in time was he considered an elite qb he was servicable and effective but never elite. as said moon made 9 probowls and led his team to 4 more playoff births in all honesty if your running a team in the nfl in the early 90s who are you taking moon or testaverde. testeverde will probably never be a hall of famer moon is first ballot nuff said

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                    • UTlonghornguy
                      Rookie
                      • Sep 2004
                      • 4

                      #115
                      Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                      Originally posted by feeq14
                      Testaverde played on some very poor teams, he was never considered an elite qb amongst his peers even playing at the same time as moon. at no point in time was he considered an elite qb he was servicable and effective but never elite. as said moon made 9 probowls and led his team to 4 more playoff births in all honesty if your running a team in the nfl in the early 90s who are you taking moon or testaverde. testeverde will probably never be a hall of famer moon is first ballot nuff said
                      Did teams ever gameplan for vinny testaverde?

                      How about when Gilbride went down with a heart ailment, he took over the offensive coordinator duties.

                      Or how about some of you realize that the run and shoot only lasted 3 years. And when it did, it is the one of the most complicated offenses to run. Every wide reciever has a read and does not have a set route, and Moon has to disect the field and realize what every recievers read is on the field.

                      Or how about the fact that he kept performing into his late 30's, and no QBs are even close in the numbers he put up at the end of his career.

                      Or maybe you will notice that he threw for tons of yards for three different teams, not including his CFL career.

                      Football is the ultimate team sport, and championships cannot be the main measuring stick. You dont leave Nolan Ryan out of the hall of fame because he just put up great stats and never won anything. Does Karl Malone and John Stockton belong in the Hall? And their sport doesnt require as much team help to be successful.

                      Think about all of the teams that have won championships in spite of poor QB play. Look no further than this year's superbowl. Roethlisberger was terrible and still got a ring. Hell Moon put up 37 points in a hostile, cold Buffalo and got to watch his defense collapse in one half.
                      Last edited by UTlonghornguy; 02-13-2006, 01:13 AM.

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                      • Jistic
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 16405

                        #116
                        Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                        Originally posted by UTlonghornguy
                        Hell Moon put up 37 points in a hostile, cold Buffalo and got to watch his defense collapse in one half.
                        And also had a hard time completing a first down completion the entire second half.

                        You can't make an arguement that football is such a team sport that you can't blame a QB for having the second most post season appearances without a super bowl appearance, yet give him all the credit for all these great numbers.

                        Bottom line, he didn't get it done when he had to. Whatever that was. He was in pass friendly offenses most of his career and played in a dome almost exclusively. Nice player, nice numbers, NFL Legend? Not by a longshot.

                        Doesn't really matter however, he's in so that's that.
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                        • coogrfan
                          In Fritz We Trust
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 15645

                          #117
                          Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                          Originally posted by Squint
                          Wow.

                          Just wow.

                          First that stupid Jerome Bettis thread and now this one.

                          Warren Moon's career alone puts him among the all-time greats and merits HOF selection on their own, but there is more to this story.

                          Doug Williams may have paved the way for the black quarterback in the NFL, but Warren Moon proved that one could be a perennial pro-bowler. There is something to be said about that. There was a time (and still is in some minds) when people believed that an African-american couldn't play the QB position for a myriad of reasons. Moon broke that mold and it allowed others to follow in his footsteps.
                          It's hard enough to play in the NFL, but imagine facing adversity like Moon did. And yet he still finished in the top five in many passing categories (and I don't care what type of offense he played in). There is something to be said about that and his career should be judged with those mitigating factors in mind.

                          I'm guessing Jim Kelly should be ranked out of the HOF because he played in the K-Gun. And if the run-and-shoot is just a stats producing offense, then why weren't Erik Kramer and Rodney Peete perennial pro-bowlers?

                          I hated to bring up race, but the fact of the matter is that it is a huge part of this story. He is the first black QB elected to the HOF and it should be pointed out. It's history.

                          Now let's all act mature and not turn this thread upside down.
                          I was discussing this subject with a buddy of mine over the weekend, and he won me over by making basically the same point you did. I'm now convinced that, because of the significance of Warren's career in terms of breaking down stereotypes and opening doors for black qb's, he deserves a spot in Canton. I still think he wouldn't have made it based solely on his on-field accomplishments, but when you factor in what Warren's career meant to the history of the NFL I no longer question Warren's inclusion.

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                          • SportsTop
                            The Few. The Proud.
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 6716

                            #118
                            Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                            Originally posted by Jistic
                            And also had a hard time completing a first down completion the entire second half.

                            You can't make an arguement that football is such a team sport that you can't blame a QB for having the second most post season appearances without a super bowl appearance, yet give him all the credit for all these great numbers.

                            Bottom line, he didn't get it done when he had to. Whatever that was. He was in pass friendly offenses most of his career and played in a dome almost exclusively. Nice player, nice numbers, NFL Legend? Not by a longshot.

                            Doesn't really matter however, he's in so that's that.
                            Interesting......if you remove "dome" from that last paragraph it almost sounds like you are describing Dan Marino.
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                            • billmatic
                              Treble Complete
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 7365

                              #119
                              Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                              Originally posted by Squint
                              Interesting......if you remove "dome" from that last paragraph it almost sounds like you are describing Dan Marino.
                              Well, except for the super bowl appearance part. But, yeah. Saying he only put up stats because he was in a pass happy offense is garbage. Plenty of QB's played in pass happy offenses, but plenty of QB's aren't in the top 5 of every major passing category.

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                              • SportsTop
                                The Few. The Proud.
                                • Jul 2003
                                • 6716

                                #120
                                Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

                                Originally posted by billmatic
                                Well, except for the super bowl appearance part. But, yeah. Saying he only put up stats because he was in a pass happy offense is garbage. Plenty of QB's played in pass happy offenses, but plenty of QB's aren't in the top 5 of every major passing category.
                                He didn't mention Superbowl in his last paragraph. Besides, you'd figure if Marino was the "legend" he is he would have been able to propel his team to a couple more Superbowl appearances instead of just the one in his second season (according to Jistic laws of football).
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